Black Library fiction The Lion: Son of The Forest - Novel

[Cpt_Reaper]

I really must disagree. Without the Fallen, what are the Dark Angels?

Really secretive and mysterious? Plenty of those Chapters.

Unique 1st and 2ns Companies? Plenty of those.

Knightly aesthetic? TONS of those.

 

The Fallen must stay. It's be like taking away the rivalry between the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, or Blood Angels and Ka'bandha, or between the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

[Akerkoke]

46 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I really must disagree. Without the Fallen, what are the Dark Angels?

Really secretive and mysterious? Plenty of those Chapters.

Unique 1st and 2ns Companies? Plenty of those.

Knightly aesthetic? TONS of those.

 

The Fallen must stay. It's be like taking away the rivalry between the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, or Blood Angels and Ka'bandha, or between the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

They are everything they were before the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, Fallen should go, cause they are actually the only plot of every Dark Angel story

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I really must disagree. Without the Fallen, what are the Dark Angels?

Really secretive and mysterious? Plenty of those Chapters.

Unique 1st and 2ns Companies? Plenty of those.

Knightly aesthetic? TONS of those.

 

The Fallen must stay. It's be like taking away the rivalry between the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, or Blood Angels and Ka'bandha, or between the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

 

A renowned chapter with a deep history and martial prowess, entrusted with safeguarding dangerous weapons from the dark age?

[Noserenda]

Exactly, take away the Fallen and the chapter collapses into blandness, literally everything special about the chapter revolves around them except a preference for plasma weapons.

 

So Ryza then :D

[Cpt_Reaper]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

A renowned chapter with a deep history and martial prowess, entrusted with safeguarding dangerous weapons from the dark age?

Much like every other Legion having a sizable traitor contingent, that lore was written much later. Before the Heresy novels, the Dark Angels had lots of plasma and 100 suits of TDA. No forbidden weapons mentioned.

 

The Fallen are the thing that makes the Dark Angels who they are. Their stories only include the Fallen because that's their thing. The issue is that story hasn't been written well. If someone other than Thorpe or Kelly wrote it people wouldn't be asking for their removal.

[SickSix]

On 3/29/2023 at 7:43 AM, m_r_parker said:

I don't know about this, I've been burned before...

 

Phil Kelly's novel at the beginning of 8th Ed around Primaris being 'accepted' by the Dark Angels was bad, I'm still not sure if he even understands a lot of the narrative around the Unforgiven chapters. Gave Thorpe's Luther novel was a solid miss for me, I didn't want to see a novel where half the time is spent on Caliban pre-Lion exploring his largely inconsequential past. 

I'm not sure I've read too much by Mike Brooks; I think he's done some Horus Heresy bits and pieces, I'll have to dig them out and see what they're like.

 

But I kinda have to buy it...

 

There's a metric tonne of explanation that needs to go into bringing the Lion back from a narrative viewpoint, and a lot of it can't / won't be included in the Arks of Omen series. This sounds like it's going to explain a lot, and also tie-up some loose threads in terms of the Fallen too.

Here's my crux; there's some elements of narrative that I don't want to be explained or resolved. I didn't want the Lion to wake (even though I consider myself primarily a Dark Angels player first and foremost), I don't want to know who Cypher is or the reason he's doing what he's doing, and I don't want to see there being a resolution to the Fallen. A lot of that ties directly into why I love the Dark Angels, if it all gets explained away then what do they become? Dark Green Space Marines...

 

Major trepidation here.

I agree will most of your worries. A sad part of the Heresy Series is they are now explaining things that were great as myth/legend. Let's hope they leave SOME mystery for the most mysterious boys.

[Petitioner's City]

Wee interview today with Brooks!

 

Quote

Warhammer Community: What was it like getting to write about such a historically important character as the Lion in the moment of his grand return?

 

Mike Brooks: It was a great honour, and incredibly exciting! Guilliman’s return to the lore really made me sit up and take notice. The Primarchs were legendary creatures of myth back when I started playing in the days of the second edition and Codex Imperialis, and the notion that one was actually coming back in the present day marked the moment when Warhammer 40,000 lore really took a new step. So with that said, the prospect of being the one to write the first novel about another Primarch’s return was an incredible opportunity. Of course, with great opportunity comes great responsibility – or something like that.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[b1soul]

 

Sounds like Arks of Omen is skipping how the Lion makes first Imperial contact...so Brooks will be doing quite a bit of narrative heavy lifting 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by b1soul

[Rookitown]

For those that have read the book, is Luther in it? Does he find redemption? I loved the Luther book, really hope he can find absolution and death at the Lions hand at least, if not redemption.

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Rookitown said:

For those that have read the book, is Luther in it? Does he find redemption? I loved the Luther book, really hope he can find absolution and death at the Lions hand at least, if not redemption.

It's not out until this weekend...

[Rookitown]

Apparently there's copies of it floating round...

[BitsHammer]

2 hours ago, Rookitown said:

For those that have read the book, is Luther in it? Does he find redemption? I loved the Luther book, really hope he can find absolution and death at the Lions hand at least, if not redemption.

Without giving out spoilers: he is not. I think GW is saving that one for now.

 

I for one look forward to seeing the Fallen storyline either wrap up or at least move into a new stage where something more tangible can be done with it.

 

Dark Angels were my first army way back in third because I thought the idea of implacable and stubborn Marines were cool. When they got flanderized into only being about the Fallen I was disappointed but after listening to Lionel Johnson's Primarch novel and Luther's novel I have a feeling where I hope they're going: Authurian Knights, much like what the Order was like on Caliban. Questing out to slay "beasts" fits the Lion, the roots of the Unforgiven and since the Lion was already copying King Arthur with how he was prophesized to return (and some bits from the book I won't spoil) I feel like that is where the Dark Angels could go.

 

Plus keeping secrets and erasing enemies so completely from the galaxy as to never harm humanity again was a First Legion schtick. And I could see the Lion doing something like that again.

 

And yeah, we have Crusading knights with the a Templar, and we have magic knights, but we don't have knights who uphold a code of honor that drives them to protect the weak and slay the beasts that threaten the weak. Dark Angels could be that and it would still fit their visual style.

[Rookitown]

2 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

Without giving out spoilers: he is not. I think GW is saving that one for now.

Goddamn why they gotta hold out on us like this. I shall simply die if I don't find out what happens to him soon.

 

Still really looking forward to the book though, and agree on how you see things going re: Authurian Knights etc. Would absolutely _love_ to see Luther redeemed and back to his knightly ways, his book was so good. Guess the Lion is cool also though.

 

Wonder if we'll find out what happened to Zahariel at some point down the track also, per Luther he thinks Corswain took him out when they get back to Caliban. Modern Cypher doesn't seem to be a psyker at all, and a warrior matching Corswains description hears the Lions last words in Eye of Ezekiel (plus a bunch of other hints in other books), so I'm assuming he became Cypher. Be nice to see a reunion of the Lion and beloved Corswain.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Rookitown

[Alternis]

God forbid the lore surrounding dark angels evolves and they stop being obsessed with hunting the fallen to the point they almost commit heresy. 

 

Their genesire is back and their secret is now known to the blood angels, and Dante. 

 

The dark angels are finally going to step out of the shadows into the light and have a new direction and a new ‘niche’ theme to support this new direction, everyone crying out “but they are nothing without the fallen” are the same crowd who fear evolution with the setting and lore, I think this is a good move and we are going to get a new fresh take on DA now 

 

coming from a BA main player, I honestly welcome this, and the tag team up between BA & DA, they have half a galaxy to clean up.

[Karhedron]

It sounds like the Fallen will still be a thing going forwards. Luther is still out there along with Marbus and the Chaos Fallen. The DA's key "hook" is still intact.

 

The Lion has returned and GW have picked up on one of their early lore points, that some of the Fallen regretted following Luther. This has created the opportunity to introduce the Redeemed without removing any existing elements from the background.

[BitsHammer]

It's in Arks of Omen so I am not counting it as a spoiler but:

Spoiler

any Fallen who join the Lion are called Risen.

 

They have Fallen only to rise again I guess was the thought.

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by TrawlingCleaner
Added Spoiler

[Noserenda]

I mean, people scoff but think it over, outside the Fallen and Fallen realted things the Dark Angels really have 4 things left in 40k: 

1. We like Plasma and have a very few dusty super weapons left
2. A very faint vestige of "knights"
3. Famous intolerance of mutants and abhumans, and even that hasnt come up recently.
4. An unhealthy love of secrets and conspiracy (yay :D ) 

They could, i suppose go back to their 30k identity and we can have another Legion that barely changed in 10k years (zzzzz) or be drifting into the same design space as Black Templars (unwise)  but honestly i much prefer them as is, things dont have to change just for the sake of it when they work.
 

[Petitioner's City]

7 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

It's in Arks of Omen so I am not counting it as a spoiler

 

Spoiler

but any Fallen who join the Lion are called Risen.

 

They have Fallen only to rise again I guess was the thought.

 

 

It is a spoiler, and it's a nice idea to put spoilers in a spoiler tag! Just because you don't view it as a spoiler doesn't stop it actually being one - you cannot count on someone caring for or being aware of the Ark book - which of course isn't even out except for some influencers!

 

Really annoying to put this in the thread for this novel, not the actual Ark book where it would be appropriate

Edited April 17, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Allart01]

11 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I mean, people scoff but think it over, outside the Fallen and Fallen realted things the Dark Angels really have 4 things left in 40k: 

1. We like Plasma and have a very few dusty super weapons left
2. A very faint vestige of "knights"
3. Famous intolerance of mutants and abhumans, and even that hasnt come up recently.
4. An unhealthy love of secrets and conspiracy (yay :D ) 

They could, i suppose go back to their 30k identity and we can have another Legion that barely changed in 10k years (zzzzz) or be drifting into the same design space as Black Templars (unwise)  but honestly i much prefer them as is, things dont have to change just for the sake of it when they work.
 

 

And an insane number of Terminators, and a unique Second Company, with bespoke combined arms tactics, and the Watchers in the Dark, and free room for any sort of weird pre-imperial technology the designers can come up with...

And only a small part of the Chapter knew about the Hunt anyway. Does 90% of an Unforgiven Chapter have no identity at all? Even if you answer 'yes', I would argue it was a mistake to pidgeonhole the fluff like that in the first place.

 

I say there is life beyond the Fallen :)

Edited April 17, 2023 by Allart01

[BitsHammer]

38 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

It is a spoiler, and it's a nice idea to put spoilers in a spoiler tag! Just because you don't view it as a spoiler doesn't stop it actually being one - you cannot count on someone caring for or being aware of the Ark book - which of course isn't even out except for some influencers!

 

Really annoying to put this in the thread for this novel, not the actual Ark book where it would be appropriate

It's in both books. Arks came out first though and that book already told us that we have redeemed Fallen and what they're called. 

[crimsondave]

41 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I mean, people scoff but think it over, outside the Fallen and Fallen realted things the Dark Angels really have 4 things left in 40k: 

1. We like Plasma and have a very few dusty super weapons left
2. A very faint vestige of "knights"
3. Famous intolerance of mutants and abhumans, and even that hasnt come up recently.
4. An unhealthy love of secrets and conspiracy (yay :D ) 

They could, i suppose go back to their 30k identity and we can have another Legion that barely changed in 10k years (zzzzz) or be drifting into the same design space as Black Templars (unwise)  but honestly i much prefer them as is, things dont have to change just for the sake of it when they work.
 

I’ll take the “another legion that hasn’t changed in 10k years.”  I’m over the Fallen.

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= If you're posting about books that have yet to be released, please remember to put it in spoilers. If you're not sure if it's a spoiler, it's always better to put it in spoiler tags just in case =][=

[phandaal]

38 minutes ago, Allart01 said:

 

And an insane number of Terminators, and a unique Second Company, with bespoke combined arms tactics, and the Watchers in the Dark, and free room for any sort of weird pre-imperial technology the designers can come up with...

And only a small part of the Chapter knew about the Hunt anyway. Does 90% of an Unforgiven Chapter have no identity at all? Even if you answer 'yes', I would argue it was a mistake to pidgeonhole the fluff like that in the first place.

 

I say there is life beyond the Fallen :)

 

The First and Second company are dedicated to hunting the Fallen. Second company runs them down, First company gets them.

 

Spoiler

All of this is a moot point now though. The Hunt is not over. There has just been a slight change in the end result for some of the Fallen.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by phandaal
Spoilers

[Allart01]

27 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

The First and Second company are dedicated to hunting the Fallen. Second company runs them down, First company gets them.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

All of this is a moot point now though. The Hunt is not over. There has just been a slight change in the end result for some of the Fallen.

 

 

It's not like they'd disappear, change beyond recognition, or anything radical really.

 

The Deathwing and the Ravenwing existed before the Hunt, and even in 40k they fight all the enemies of the Imperium with their unique units, wargear and tactics. You take nothing of that away by removing the Fallen.

 

 

Which, as you say, are still there anyway...

Edited April 17, 2023 by Allart01

[Vassakov]

People do realise that the Fallen are still out there, right?

Spoiler

We don't yet know how the wider Unforgiven are going to react, but it seems fairly clear that The Lion is willing to forgive and redeem those who weren't directly responsible for attacking the fleet at Caliban and who remain loyal to the Emperor.

 

Those who have turned to Chaos are executed without mercy. A more interesting aspect might be those who have renounced everything and are essentially now pirates or mercenaries - the Lion appears to be willing to live and let live, but it's hard to see the rest of the Unforgiven going along with that...