Wh40k 10th Edition Terminator Datasheet, Rapid Fire and "Anti" Rules

[Lemondish]

1 minute ago, Magos Takatus said:

It's a good point. The nature of these new Datasheets open the door for Power Fists having different stats for different units. I'm not saying it would happen but perhaps mounting a Power Fist on a suit of Terminator armour makes it less cumbersome than standard power armour? All the extra weight, servos and gyros and stuff might make it easier to slap someone with it. 

Technically, that's already the case. Since power fists rely on the user's strength and attacks characteristics, you may see the same stat line for the weapon but it could mean completely different things based on the user. This is just codified in a way where you don't have to refer to anything but the weapon stat line.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 hour ago, AenarIT said:

There's not a single mention of "primaris" in the new lieutenant marketing article, neither in its name. Just "lieutenant".

does say phobos lieutenant though before you click the article

[Cruor Vault]

11 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

does say phobos lieutenant though before you click the article

Phobos is a keyword that has in-game mechanical importance.  Like a Terminator Captain, or a character on Bike.

[Orange Knight]

They might stop using the word as much at this point anyway.

 

The Primaris are 6 years old as an idea, and in the lore time has moved on - we could be 60 years or more into the timeline - events are post Devastation of Baal.

 

The Primaris aren't new anymore, and they are still Astartes. If all Marines are Primaris, then that word doesn't have any meaning.

[Guest Triszin]

46 minutes ago, marspeople said:

How are we supposed to know who can take what weapon and how many?

 

Warscroll with points and unit model qty options.

 

I.e. 40k chapter approved

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Looking at how durable the termies are I wonder if we can expect some sort of buff to aggressors to keep them somewhat competitive.

 

14 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

Just read the WarCom post about the terminator datasheet. That all seems… complicated. More so than what we have now. 

Does it seem more complicated than what we have now or just a new paradigm to learn?

[DesuVult]

37 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

If all Marines are Primaris, then that word doesn't have any meaning.

GW said with the terminators not all marines are primaris.

[Cruor Vault]

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Looking at how durable the termies are I wonder if we can expect some sort of buff to aggressors to keep them somewhat competitive.

 

Its an admittedly small data set, but in general a LOT of things appear to have reduced AP (also hinted at on the streams).  Coupled with a significant reduction in stratagem/faction rule combinations, simply being T5 3+ is probably a really solid statline.

 

Look at the Terminator options.  In a Terminator VS Terminator fight they don't need to use INV saves because none of the AP is better than -2.

 

Aggressors likely won't change much stat wise, but they're getting an indirect buff through the overall AP reduction.  It's also not unreasonable to think they might get WS3+ with their Powerfists to represent the extra servos and support the Gravis armor allows for since it Terminators are hitting on 3s with their Powerfists.

 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

1 hour ago, marspeople said:

How are we supposed to know who can take what weapon and how many?

 

As the article says, these are datasheet CARDS.

 

Cards typically have two sides.

[Ming the Merciless]

I have a (bad) feeling that Drukhari poison weapons will become anti-infantry, thus reducing their currently hilarious effectiveness against (mostly Tyranid) monsters 

[crimsondave]

3 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I think the ‘anti’ rule could be good. It will help solve one of the major problems with the 8th and 9th weapons, that it’s very difficult to make a weapon good against its intended target without making it good against all targets. 

Totally agree.  I’m a guard player but even I admit Born Soldiers is ridiculous.  Maybe this rule could fix that without killing it totally.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, marspeople said:

How are we supposed to know who can take what weapon and how many?

 

My guess is that will be in the army list so you only need to refer to that information during the list building stage. Once you get to the point of actually playing the game, you don't need that info as it would just clutter up the datasheet with info you don't reference.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, Cruor Vault said:

 

Its an admittedly small data set, but in general a LOT of things appear to have reduced AP (also hinted at on the streams).  Coupled with a significant reduction in stratagem/faction rule combinations, simply being T5 3+ is probably a really solid statline.

 

Look at the Terminator options.  In a Terminator VS Terminator fight they don't need to use INV saves because none of the AP is better than -2.

 

Aggressors likely won't change much stat wise, but they're getting an indirect buff through the overall AP reduction.  It's also not unreasonable to think they might get WS3+ with their Powerfists to represent the extra servos and support the Gravis armor allows for since it Terminators are hitting on 3s with their Powerfists.

 

Based on what we’re seeing here though there’s little reason to take aggressors over terminators 

 

I think being able to shoot their gunsin combat would go along way and really help them out.

Another small thing of note as per auspex tactics.

 

sgt’s weapon is generic power weapon. This looks like something I’ve hoped for would happen has happened. 
i came back and suddenly there were different classes of power weapons, personally I didn’t like it.

 

13 hours ago, crimsondave said:

Totally agree.  I’m a guard player but even I admit Born Soldiers is ridiculous.  Maybe this rule could fix that without killing it totally.

Go to the guard sub and back me up on my topic there lol.

[Crimson Longinus]

Seems mostly good. Buffed defence and somewhat restrained offence is what the game needs. I like the power weapon consolidation, it was not meaningful differentiation and this frees up how you can model your marines. Though the power weapon remains puny compared to the fist. Poor sergeant. 

[MARK0SIAN]

44 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Based on what we’re seeing here though there’s little reason to take aggressors over terminators 

 

I think being able to shoot their gunsin combat would go along way and really help them out.

Another small thing of note as per auspex tactics.

 

sgt’s weapon is generic power weapon. This looks like something I’ve hoped for would happen has happened. 
i came back and suddenly there were different classes of power weapons, personally I didn’t like it.

To be fair I think Terminators should be the premier unit over Aggressors, they’re meant to be the most honoured/respected/veteran warriors in the chapter. They generally should be better than Aggressors. There might not be any reason to take aggressors over terminators in terms of their pure stats but we don’t know anything about points costs yet. Aggressors could be significantly cheaper than Terminators.

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Based on what we’re seeing here though there’s little reason to take aggressors over terminators 

 

I think being able to shoot their gunsin combat would go along way and really help them out.

Another small thing of note as per auspex tactics.

 

It might not mean anything, but the way that the fury of the first stratagem became the special ability for this unit in 10th edition might imply a similar outcome for most other units. I mean, that's basically what they've already said, so...

 

Looking at primaris aggressors, we only see a single gravis specific defensive stratagem. All the rest that this unit are eligible for are a lot broader and can apply to a boatload of other options as well. Could that be how they intend to treat them? Only time will tell.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Lemondish

[WrathOfTheLion]

What abilities are on the datasheets of each unit will also affect what their purpose is. A good thing though, is that you should be able to much more easily figure out how a unit works or what it's good at just from its datasheet.

[Nephaston]

Aggressors will probably be cheaper or will have keyword shenanigans for their guns, like Termagants spinefists they might feature twin-linked, or have assault and pistols, or all three.

 

They might also have more attacks for their fists by virtue of having two per marine.

[Lemondish]

3 minutes ago, EnsignJoker said:

Did me saying it seemed complicated offend you or something? Sheesh. Didn’t mean to touch a nerve there. 

No nerves touched, brother. Tone was meant to be playful to start, like an infomercial entry or something haha. My apologies for the failure in the messaging and tone.

 

I can definitely see what you mean by it all seeming complicated on the first reading, though for me the most important thing that helps is knowing everybody basically goes off the same core set of rules.

 

Not to mention how nearly everything you need to know about this unit is on that one card (as far as we've seen thus far, of course). That's huge for me. No separate page to reference a fist full of unique, bespoke faction rules, that then expand to even more rules listed on some other page. No separate keyword search needed on the stratagem page, just the ability written here. No separate entry per weapon to describe a unique effect, just standard universal rules everyone can reference. Perhaps the complexity hasn't been entirely reined in, but the presentation certainly has.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

46 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

To be fair I think Terminators should be the premier unit over Aggressors, they’re meant to be the most honoured/respected/veteran warriors in the chapter. They generally should be better than Aggressors. There might not be any reason to take aggressors over terminators in terms of their pure stats but we don’t know anything about points costs yet. Aggressors could be significantly cheaper than Terminators.

Not arguing they shouldn’t be best of the best, but I’m trying to imagine what point cost aggressors would have to be in order to be taken instead of terminators in a low point game.

An extra wound and adjusting the sc to 2+ Doesn’t seem unreasonable, and they could still be a cheaper option. 
 

but translating aggressor current aggressor stats into 10th based on this example, they’d need to be like 20ppm compared to terminators at 28-30 I feel like to convince to choose them over terminators.

[Khornestar]

I like everything I’m seeing but I won’t be buying any cards at all, even when the codices are released. I was going through my dice/cards box yesterday and the number of outdated cards was absurd. Not to mention if there’s an erratum that changes the text, that individual card is no longer useful.

 

Otherwise, I really like everything they showed off today. Terminators feel like terminators. They nailed it.

[Lemondish]

I mentioned it at length in the other thread, but I suppose it's relevant here too...

 

With the way that this data card design shows us specific weapon profiles for the user, the explicit entry indicating the storm bolter as rapid fire suggests to me that Bolter Discipline may be going away. It's quite the stretch, I know, but bear with me...

 

With the design space they've opened up here, the same thing that this rule does today for Terminators could have been achieved by simply showing four attacks for the weapon, period. Because it specifically shows us the rapid fire rule though, I think that means this effect no longer applies.

[OttoVonAwesome]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Not arguing they shouldn’t be best of the best, but I’m trying to imagine what point cost aggressors would have to be in order to be taken instead of terminators in a low point game.

An extra wound and adjusting the sc to 2+ Doesn’t seem unreasonable, and they could still be a cheaper option. 
 

but translating aggressor current aggressor stats into 10th based on this example, they’d need to be like 20ppm compared to terminators at 28-30 I feel like to convince to choose them over terminators.

They'll likely be umm more aggressive. Not as tough but more shots more attacks. Not really much can do with them but make them deadlier.

 

10 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I mentioned it at length in the other thread, but I suppose it's relevant here too...

 

With the way that this data card design shows us specific weapon profiles for the user, the explicit entry indicating the storm bolter as rapid fire suggests to me that Bolter Discipline may be going away. It's quite the stretch, I know, but bear with me...

 

With the design space they've opened up here, the same thing that this rule does today for Terminators could have been achieved by simply showing four attacks for the weapon, period. Because it specifically shows us the rapid fire rule though, I think that means this effect no longer applies.

We'll see when the faction rules drop tomorrow. Could be Bolter discipline just doesn't apply to them.

[Orange Knight]

I expect Aggressors will be cheaper, better in shooting and faster moving.

 

They won't have an Invul, and will be slightly worse in close combat, but only marginally.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I don't dislike this new rules,I must admit, but until I play a pair of times in the 10th, is really complicated to see if is of my taste.

Like cars, nice aspect but you need to jump and drive to see if the seller is telling truth.