Wh40k 10th Edition Terminator Datasheet, Rapid Fire and "Anti" Rules

[SickSix]

21 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I think the ‘anti’ rule could be good. It will help solve one of the major problems with the 8th and 9th weapons, that it’s very difficult to make a weapon good against its intended target without making it good against all targets. 

Exactly this! I was soo happy to see this rule. Although it may hurt some traditional 'good against all weapons' like melta.

[jaxom]

A melta as S6 AP-3 anti-vehicle (3+) would be very interesting. Still pops most heavy infantry, still really good against vehicles, but not quite as good agains monsters.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Maybe the anti rule can help distinguish between the heavy bolter and the autocannon now.

 

HB anti-infantry3+
 

[Mr. Oddity]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Maybe the anti rule can help distinguish between the heavy bolter and the autocannon now.

 

HB anti-infantry3+
 

 

As a perpetual autocannon fan, this would definitely be nice to see. An AC may be able to wreck a marine if it hits, but it should be more focused on punching holes in light vehicles since it's effectively a semi-auto anti-tank gun. Although if they want to further distinguish it, I could see a side-grade of sorts where it becomes an anti-monster weapon instead of an anti-vehicle one. Decent strength and AP into something like a Carnifex or a Riptide would do some work after all.

[MARK0SIAN]

31 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Maybe the anti rule can help distinguish between the heavy bolter and the autocannon now.

 

HB anti-infantry3+
 

I think that might be a tad generous, it shouldn’t be wounding the new terminators or Custodes on a 3+.

 

But it definitely opens up a bonus for the autocannon.

[Subtleknife]

Yeah I agree. That is the one draw back for this "anti rule". It suddenly makes a weapon as equally effective against custodes as guard etc if it is "anti infantry". 

 

Hopefully they have light/heavy infantry (and the same for armour) to add granularity.

[DesuVult]

Anti-infantry can work well, like fleshbane or poison.  Limit it to things like extremely strong poison weapons like some drukhari things.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

54 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I think that might be a tad generous, it shouldn’t be wounding the new terminators or Custodes on a 3+.

 

But it definitely opens up a bonus for the autocannon.

Why not? Terminators will still be saving on a 2 or 3+, so it’s not like it will be all that deadly to them.

 

don’t know anything about custodes stats but imagine they’ll be just fine even in this situation 

[MARK0SIAN]

43 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Why not? Terminators will still be saving on a 2 or 3+, so it’s not like it will be all that deadly to them.

 

don’t know anything about custodes stats but imagine they’ll be just fine even in this situation 

We’ve just had an edition where GW themselves acknowledge that stuff was too lethal and supposedly tough stuff didn’t feel tough. We need a reduction in how easy it is to wound those tough units. Even now a HB wouldn’t wound a T5 model on a 3+, not sure why we want to make it more deadly.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

We’ve just had an edition where GW themselves acknowledge that stuff was too lethal and supposedly tough stuff didn’t feel tough. We need a reduction in how easy it is to wound those tough units. Even now a HB wouldn’t wound a T5 model on a 3+, not sure why we want to make it more deadly.

They’ll probably be losing their AP, so it’s probably going to be a side grade, a 2+ save will make them feel plenty tough still.

[Lemondish]

21 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Even now a HB wouldn’t wound a T5 model on a 3+, not sure why we want to make it more deadly.

It's a little off topic, but I was always surprised how heavy bolters found a niche where they behaved like bigger, more powerful versions of boltguns rather than simply firing more bolts, faster.

[tzeentch9]

The trouble with reduced lethality in game is less stuff dying, means longer games, and higher complexity for longer as more stuff hangs around

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

It's a little off topic, but I was always surprised how heavy bolters found a niche where they behaved like bigger, more powerful versions of boltguns rather than simply firing more bolts, faster.

Well I mean they are bigger and do fire bigger bolts, so I would expect them to be more deadly.

14 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

The trouble with reduced lethality in game is less stuff dying, means longer games, and higher complexity for longer as more stuff hangs around

Games last as long as the core rules say the last regardless of how many models are on the table.

[MARK0SIAN]

18 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

The trouble with reduced lethality in game is less stuff dying, means longer games, and higher complexity for longer as more stuff hangs around

Maybe but the majority of games I played in 9th edition were either over by turn 2 or it was clear who was going to win by then and it was generally due to how fast everything died. I’d be happy for games to last longer if it was meaningful and more stuff being alive makes that more likely.

[tzeentch9]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Well I mean they are bigger and do fire bigger bolts, so I would expect them to be more deadly.

Games last as long as the core rules say the last regardless of how many models are on the table.

Only in terms of rounds, not in terms of time. Ie it takes longer to play out that last round if half of each army is still on the table, rather than just a unit or two

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Subtleknife said:

Yeah I agree. That is the one draw back for this "anti rule". It suddenly makes a weapon as equally effective against custodes as guard etc if it is "anti infantry". 

 

Hopefully they have light/heavy infantry (and the same for armour) to add granularity.

 

"Anti-Infantry" would have to be reserved for something that already falls into the rare poison category. Just like Chainfists are already "Anti-Vehicle" specialty weapons in 9th, so they get an equivalent rule in 10th. We will have to see how prevalent that keyword is, because there is definite potential for overuse.

[brother_b]

Anti infantry can also be Anti-6+.  I think the rule will add some flavor but I don't expect all of the "anti" weapons to be super effective like the 3+ we saw with the chainfist.

[acrozatarim]

7 minutes ago, brother_b said:

Anti infantry can also be Anti-6+.  I think the rule will add some flavor but I don't expect all of the "anti" weapons to be super effective like the 3+ we saw with the chainfist.

 

Everything already wounds on a 6+ (unless they change that in 10th) so Anti 6+ would be a pointless rule, surely?

[Kaiju Soze]

3 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

 

Everything already wounds on a 6+ (unless they change that in 10th) so Anti 6+ would be a pointless rule, surely?

Yeah, it would have to be Anti [Infantry] 5+ at worst. They pretty much stated that 6s still always wound in the article.

[Kythnos]

1 hour ago, tzeentch9 said:

The trouble with reduced lethality in game is less stuff dying, means longer games, and higher complexity for longer as more stuff hangs around

 

Not sure about longer, that might be compensated for by a quicker ruleset, but games being more interesting for their whole length is a big plus for me. 

[brother_b]

56 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

 

Everything already wounds on a 6+ (unless they change that in 10th) so Anti 6+ would be a pointless rule, surely?

My understanding was it’s the hit roll, if it’s the wound roll then disregard.

[acrozatarim]

26 minutes ago, brother_b said:

My understanding was it’s the hit roll, if it’s the wound roll then disregard.

 

Yeah, Anti-X specifically works off an unmodified wound roll. It's not an 'autowound on 6s to hit' type rule (and honestly, I hope those largely get dropped from the game).

[Marshal Reinhard]

3 hours ago, Lemondish said:

It's a little off topic, but I was always surprised how heavy bolters found a niche where they behaved like bigger, more powerful versions of boltguns rather than simply firing more bolts, faster.

I mean... compare your typical bolter with a heavy bolter.. aint nobody thinking they're firing the same bolts.

 

Which is why God (or GW, I guess) invented heavy bolt rifles. Now those I can see being the same class.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

27 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I mean... compare your typical bolter with a heavy bolter.. aint nobody thinking they're firing the same bolts.

 

Which is why God (or GW, I guess) invented heavy bolt rifles. Now those I can see being the same class.

Even the heavy bolt rifle seems notably smaller, but not so much smaller I guess as to justify lower S.

 

actually now i wonder if we’ll see a different S stat between hvy bolt rifles and hvy bolters.

37 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

 

Yeah, Anti-X specifically works off an unmodified wound roll. It's not an 'autowound on 6s to hit' type rule (and honestly, I hope those largely get dropped from the game).

Me too.

that’s my #1 hope for guard, is to lose born soldiers.

 

anti-tank and anti-monster I can see being useful, but is there really any point to anti-infantry?

 

a HB will probably wound all infantry on a 4+ at worst, and any that it doesn’t do you really want a bunch of weapons wounding that infantry particularly easily?

Edited April 5, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Mr. Oddity]

36 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Even the heavy bolt rifle seems notably smaller, but not so much smaller I guess as to justify lower S.

 

actually now i wonder if we’ll see a different S stat between hvy bolt rifles and hvy bolters.

 

I think it's a distinct possibility that we see a strength increase. My guess would be that at the high end we'll get stuff like railguns and the superheavy AT weapons with strength 12 or 14 (wherever they cap the new toughness stats), with las going to 10, melta 9, autocannon and plasma 8, and heavy bolters/assault cannons at 6. That gives a bit more granularity among special and AT weapons while keeping each one as a threat to its preferred target profile.

 

Heavy bolt rifle variants and Tau pulse weapons will probably top standard-issue infantry guns at S5 to reflect their main role of combating other infantry, since realistically line infantry shouldn't be doing major damage to heavy infantry or vehicles without specialist weapons.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mr. Oddity
Infantry role clarification