Wh40k 10th Edition Leaders Joining Squads

[Redcomet]

I really like this. Having a limited list of units they can lead and a reduction in auras, should cut down on some of the OP combos

[DesuVult]

I am now openning betting on when the first FAQ to remove a squad option for a character drops after 10e launch.

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

I am now openning betting on when the first FAQ to remove a squad option for a character drops after 10e launch.

My guess is after the FAQ to add an obvious one they missed....

 

But in all seriousness, it does mean any new squad needs multiple updates to characters as well.... Want to introduce a new Primaris grav rifles squad, you need to re-issue or FAQ all the datasheets for any characters you intend to let join them.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

50 minutes ago, Vassakov said:

 

It has, because it's an army ability that works on everything and that you can presently relatively easily layer other buffs onto. Giving it to one unit at the start of the game? That's more manageable. 

More manageable but still significantly undermines the attempt to make things more durable, and how big of a deal does that make when combined with OoM?

[War of the Eagle]

Calling it now, transports will have a similar list of units that may embark as this style list. Hope I'm wrong tho.

 

I like the characters joinning units again tho.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

18 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

But....but... the reason why this feature was removed, was because units just became wound shields for powerful characters 

 

Seeing it return isn't fantastic news

And that’s different from not being able to target characters how?

[Dark Shepherd]

I think a  big part of this was to stop vehicles getting the benefit of (multiple) auras except for maybe things like techmarines, tank commanders(?), admech

 

Itll be interesting to see how theyve done auras or what theyve replaced them with for character vehicles eg Bjorn the Felhanded, Logna Grimnar, and other character dreads

Edited April 11, 2023 by Dark Shepherd

[Blindhamster]

Not sure I’m happy with the way the distinction between firstborn and primaris actually looks to have been doubled down on, seems a bit off when you had things in the books where firstborn officers led primaris troops for example, seems even more silly than the transport restrictions 

[MARK0SIAN]

21 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

But....but... the reason why this feature was removed, was because units just became wound shields for powerful characters 

 

Seeing it return isn't fantastic news

But characters can’t be made as relatively powerful or invulnerable as they could in pre 8th editions where you could make deathstars that were almost mathematically impossible to kill. That kind of system went because the general mechanics of abilities changed, not mainly because characters could no longer join units. The rule always felt like it was an answer to a problem they’d already solved and/or didn’t exist from 8th onward.
 

It also led to daft things like having characters who were meant to buff melee units not having any guarantee they could charge the same unit as the units they were meant to be buffing, or famous heroes being forced to lead from the rear because they’d be too exposed and instantly killed if they led from the front. 

 

Plus it looks like the most powerful characters like Primarchs won’t be able to join units still.

[Bradeh]

14 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Not sure I’m happy with the way the distinction between firstborn and primaris actually looks to have been doubled down on, seems a bit off when you had things in the books where firstborn officers led primaris troops for example, seems even more silly than the transport restrictions 

 

I think the new Terminator release is a bit of red herring when it comes to Firstborn, I'm pretty sure GW is only doing this with Termies because they are such an iconic unit and GW knows it will be a disaster to leave them to rot with old sculpts. The reality is though Primaris is the way forward, sure GW doesn't mind you spending money on Firstborn miniatures but Primaris is the future, the small amount of 'love' the Firstborn get it just to appease the diehards.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Bradeh

[Cruor Vault]

22 minutes ago, Magos Takatus said:

I'm not sure how I feel about this. It seems a bit overly restrictive to me. For example a space marine chaplain is a veteran space marine who pretty much exists to reinforce the morale of his chapter. The idea that wearing the wrong kind of armour leads to him being ignored doesn't sit well with me and his ability to inspire the troops being limited to one squad seems a bit lacklustre. I think the Skitarii Marshal is the one I'm personally most concerned about. The way he interacts with the Data Tethers for the army could be in jeopardy.

 

This could well be a win but my gut instinct so far is feeling some trepidation.

 

Until 8th edition Chaplains ONLY reinforced the leadership of their squad.  They were never a "Hold the line Men!" leader, more of a "this guy and his squad of psychopaths wont run away" type.  Captains were the ones who (depending on the edition) granted buffed leadership to the entire army.  Ill be we get a return of the old Rites of War rule where everyone increases their leadership by 1, or maybe captains allow one unit per turn to auto-pass break checks.

 

I would think its safe to assume the entire mechanic behind data tethers and AdMech doctrines will be rebuilt from the ground up.  

[Lexington]

System sounds good, honestly. Hopefully the 10th Ed App is as good and vital to the game as other games’ apps have been, and the “units a character can be attached to gets FAQ’d” issue won’t be an issue at all.

[Magos Takatus]

5 minutes ago, Cruor Vault said:

 

Until 8th edition Chaplains ONLY reinforced the leadership of their squad.  They were never a "Hold the line Men!" leader, more of a "this guy and his squad of psychopaths wont run away" type.  Captains were the ones who (depending on the edition) granted buffed leadership to the entire army.  Ill be we get a return of the old Rites of War rule where everyone increases their leadership by 1, or maybe captains allow one unit per turn to auto-pass break checks.

 

I would think its safe to assume the entire mechanic behind data tethers and AdMech doctrines will be rebuilt from the ground up.  

I personally hope that the way Admech's rules are written makes it a lot easier to use and remember but I hope it retains some of it's unique flavour. Their orders are transmitted right into their skulls so they should hopefully get a more reliable buffing system.

 

Regarding Chaplains I wasn't really talking about rules, I was more thinking about the lore implications and I know that mixing lore and the rules often doesn't work but it falls to them to recite the litanies during battle and to bolster the purity of his battle brothers by issuing purity seals before the battle (I probably feel this is important because I often use post-it notes and they are the 40k equivalent to post-it notes. :p ). It just seems to me that a Captain should tell an army where to go but the Chaplain is there to remind them of the perils of failing or of their courage/hatred for the foe. I'm not sure how that should be represented in the rules but I'm worried that it won't be adequately.

[KiltedMarine]

Overall, I really like the way this works.  I think the concerns about layering are valid, but likely with this article we're seeing an example that won't hold true quite across the majority of other cases.

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, DesuVult said:

Rerolling all hits, rerolling all wounds, and auto-wounding on hit rolls of 6 is a lot of potential damage.

 

1 hour ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Yeah but it’s still an ability that cuts right through the main defence of high toughness models. Tanks and knights are now a lot easier to wound.

 

1 hour ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

It's just autowounding hits.  That's not such a big deal depending on what the unit is; bolt rifles from Intercessors, let's say, will probably be Ap0 and D1.  Not exactly the end of the world.

 

15 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

More manageable but still significantly undermines the attempt to make things more durable, and how big of a deal does that make when combined with OoM?

 

I think this is where we see the list-design balancing act. The best way to take advantage of Tactical Precision is to have a full size unit. A full size unit is more vulnerable/valuable as a target to Blast weapons and abilities like Oath of Moment. Then there's the weapon options/points to consider. The best unit for Tactical Precision (from what we know right now) would be Hellblasters with Assault Plasma Incinerators. They're the lowest Strength Incinerator (in a world of increased vehicle and knight Toughness) which doesn't matter because fishing for sixes with volume of fire, but they'll definitely be the best AP option compared to weapons from the other units listed. Hellblasters are also going to probably be the most points-expensive unit out of the units listed so there's the trade off if someone decided to try to nuke the unit. 

 

1 hour ago, Bradeh said:

I can assume why but not being able to join a Desolation Squad doesn't make much sense, they have the same armour setup as the rest. 

 

I'd assume for balance reasons if they're still capable of Indirect Fire, though it may have to do with visual aesthetics.

 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I hope this is including ancients and champions again as well.

it’s so stupid that they were singled out from command squads and made elites choices.

 

1 hour ago, Vanger said:

Do we get back the old Command Squad?

 

The good news is there's no more competing for limited Elite slots. The bad news is that unless GW repackages them in a single box, they're going to be separate data slates. Of course, should they release a Primaris Champion, that would be an opportunity to do so. At the moment, I don't think GW even sells Firstborn Ancients and Apothecaries outside Chapter-specific kits (Deathwing Command Squad, Ravenwing Command Squad, Sanguinary Ancient in Sanguinary Guard). That's just in terms of data slates/kits. If you meant, will those three all be able to join the same squad? Who knows, but I could see Company Veterans (the current Command Squad equivalent) getting a special rule letting it happen. Definitely easier to balance around three specific characters joining one specific unit than them being able to all join (m)any unit(s).

 

42 minutes ago, Bouargh said:

Looks like very streamlined for SM or Aeldari.

 

But I really wonder how it will works for armies that really heavily on auras or on secondary characters such as AdMech or GSC respectively. On the firsta hand attaching some to units will be a real shift in strategy (for example for AdMech Marshall or even Magos who do not really benefit from Cannon galss units of AdMech...). And on the other hand not all can decently be considered as lone operatives neither.

 

Then this will eventually lead to some reshuffling of roles or even existence of some units such as SM command squad (Firstborn) and Battle Servitors.

 

I would assume any power removed from characters will be redistributed into Faction, Detachment, or other units. I could even see taking power from characters to somewhere else specifically to aid armies where the characters will be harder to protect. For example, making the effect of Control Edict the native effect of a Data-Tether rule on the data slate of all Skitarii units which can currently take Data-Tethers. Of course, I'd also assume Doctrina Imperatives will get an overhaul.

[AnvilofFenris]

I wonder if Leader and Lone Operative will always be mutually exclusive, or if some characters might have the option to be one or the other? I suspect the former, but there might be exceptions

[Skywrath]

This is looking very promising already, which is unusual for GW, let's hope they stay on that path. So far very nice system.

 

That being said I'm seeing the Lion can be added to any ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY implies he can be allied with any INFANTRY unit? Maybe not even chapter specific INFANTRY? Oh boy the possibilities are endless, and that make me very happy, on top of the character being to added to units change. 

 

Curiously, I see two units are redacted - SM's getting two new units we haven't seen before? I doubt they would allow the option to be added to a primaris boxnaught for instance (hence the redacted names as we don't know what they are called), so those units have to be two new ones we haven't seen before. That being said, from a balance perspective does that mean CORE is gone? Or would the new CORE work from the perspective of certain units cannot be attached to formally non core units (e.g. Centurions)? 

[Kallas]

4 minutes ago, Skywrath said:

That being said I'm seeing the Lion can be added to any ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY implies he can be allied with any INFANTRY unit? Maybe not even chapter specific INFANTRY? Oh boy the possibilities are endless, and that make me very happy, on top of the character being to added to units change. 

No, Lion is said to have the Lone Operative ability instead, but it works near any Adeptus Astartes unit Infantry, not vehicles like Feirros' version:

 

Quote

Some characters only gain the Lone Operative ability when taking shelter near an appropriate unit – such as when Iron Father Feirros is working on an allied VEHICLE, or Lion El’Jonson is near a unit of ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY. Such heroes tend to benefit their comrades without Leading them, perhaps through Aura abilities that boost nearby allies.

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Kallas
Infantry, not any unit

[Lemondish]

46 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

More manageable but still significantly undermines the attempt to make things more durable, and how big of a deal does that make when combined with OoM?

I'd say that depends on the points costs here. If Marine forces are smaller, their increased lethality fits. Unfortunately, all we have right now is the ability to compare Terminators in a mirror-match. Not to mention the list here includes only one instance of a weapon that, today, does more than 2 damage on a failed save. It's also one of the rarest units using one of their rarest options (heavy plasma incinerators on Hellblasters). 

 

We also don't have the full rules here. Sure, we know what lethal hits provide, but does that count against every target? Will vehicles be immune to some of these? Will vehicles simply be shrugging off AP0 D1 because they end up with triple the wounds they have today? We'll know more later in the week, but I think it's pretty early to say anything has been undermined.

 

 

[jimbo1701]

1 hour ago, Aramis K said:

The list of units the lieutenant can join is alphabetical, so one of the redacted units has a name between He and In

 

So I recon the flamer squad are the Hellfuries mentioned in the past. Hell as a prefix for special weapon squads.

I also think hellfuries are a safe bet for that unit. As they are going with mkX tacticus units to be joined it does make me wonder what the last one on the list is. I don’t think it will be a mkx jump infantry unit as it makes no sense for a foot mounted lieutenant to join this. Most probable is that the veteran squad from the trailer is in there. Bit odd that the desolation squad doesn’t feature but the hellblasters do, maybe for balance? Strongly suspect any reveals are from the index dataslates and that these will be revised with additional units when the marine wave hits around September time. 

[CL_Mission]

18 minutes ago, Skywrath said:

Curiously, I see two units are redacted - SM's getting two new units we haven't seen before? I doubt they would allow the option to be added to a primaris boxnaught for instance (hence the redacted names as we don't know what they are called), so those units have to be two new ones we haven't seen before. That being said, from a balance perspective does that mean CORE is gone? Or would the new CORE work from the perspective of certain units cannot be attached to formally non core units (e.g. Centurions)? 

 

I would guess the two redacted units that the Primaris Lt can join are the flamer guys and the shooty vets from the 10th edition trailer.

[Lemondish]

7 minutes ago, jimbo1701 said:

Bit odd that the desolation squad doesn’t feature but the hellblasters do, maybe for balance?

That's my thinking. There's just something terrifying about the idea of having auto-wounds from a unit that can fire at range and out of line of sight. Not to mention those krak missiles actually have some beef to their damage. Right now, the unit he can join with the highest damage per shot is Hellblasters equipped with heavy plasma incinerators and overcharging. How will gets hot work now with fewer rerolls? I suspect mortal wounds are still in, so it could go that way. Granted, that veteran squad looked to have access to melta, so we'll see.

10 minutes ago, CL_Mission said:

 

I would guess the two redacted units that the Primaris Lt can join are the flamer guys and the shooty vets from the 10th edition trailer.

Definitely.

 

I just have a small problem now. All these crazy lieutenants they've released over the past however many years have turned into Deathwatch kill team members for me and I'm not about to double up on sculpts lol

[WrathOfTheLion]

I suspect Assault Marines may be split to two datasheets, one with a junp pack and one without.

 

Would certainly make the rules writing simpler.

[Captain Idaho]

Love this change. Hated how auras worked in 8th, so really happy to see it.

[Lemondish]

Just now, Captain Idaho said:

Love this change. Hated how auras worked in 8th, so really happy to see it.

100% agreed

 

The conga line nonsense and the crazy number of overlapping abilities being some of the worst examples of degenerative gameplay introduced in 8th, and barely addressed in 9th.