Rumour Valrak trusted rumor: Firstborn Land Speeder and Firstborn Dreadnought going to legends

[Halandaar]

Upcoming dual-ranged Redemptor variant might kill off the OG boxnaught profile (and possibly the Venerable) in 40K, but not the Castraferrum chassis as a whole, imo. Between the SW Venerable with the Axe and Shield and Wulfen Dread, the BA Furioso Librarian and the Ironclad that's a bunch of options the Redemptor chassis doesn't even come close to covering, and that's before the special character variants (Bjorn, Murderfang).

 

 

[Matrindur]

Any lore reason like the Redemptors burning out the pilots can just be retconned by GW so its probably better to just look from a model standpoint.

With the Brutalis and the upcoming mortis variant the Redemptor is clearly the Boxnought replacement so it wouldn't surprise me if they get cut in the future. But right now there are still the unique Blood Angels and Space Wolf versions that don't have a replacement and Grey Knights also can only use the Boxnought for now.

Grey Knights I could see just getting access to the Redemptor.

The Furioso and Death Company dread could be morphed into the Brutalis but the librarian version would at least need a BA dreadnought upgrade sprue and the SW dreadnoughts would need even more work.

Would also be pretty sad if they just cut all of these so I can't really see the Boxnought going away just yet, at least not until they get new kits.

 

[DesuVult]

9 minutes ago, lansalt said:

It's never been said in the fluff, but I've always though that the Redemptor was meant as direct upgrade to the old dreads, as in using the old Castraferrum sarcophagus directly in the new chassis, plug and play. This would allow the existence of ancient venenerable dreads and classic characters like Bjorn among Primaris without problem.

 

Redemptor uses a different sarcophagus and drains the user.

[Captain Idaho]

Don't particularly like not being able to use my models, but I'm not surprised.

[bigtrouble]

These data sheets are clearly made redundant by their Primaris versions, so I'm not surprised at all. Not sad at all about boxnoughts either, I've never liked that model, and I quite like the redemptor design. The speeder on the other hand... I do not like the storm speeder design as much, and the Talonmaster is in a regular speeder, so I'm quite nervous about what this means.

[Lemondish]

45 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Should be fine with the way line of sight works these days, being based on base

Wait, what? Did they change how line of sight works? Have I been using this entirely wrong the entire edition?!

 

On topic, I'm not at all surprised about these changes. Some of these models appear to be positioned to replace older kits, but I do hope we see more in the way of this Terminator refresh where instead of a replacement we get a retool.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Lemondish

[CL_Mission]

Although I absolutely loved the Land Speeder when it first released I don't think it's the best aged model. It doesn't look bad necessarily but perhaps a little dinky/goofy. The old box-nought I think it much more iconic and would be a bigger loss although if I'm honest I can't see myself buying another one of any variety. Maybe if it got a brush up an rework for HH I'd be tempted but not how it currently is. 

[MadEdric]

I may be in a minority, but I have found all the Primaris vehicles and dreads to be ugly. I don't own any of them (save a speeder that is still in box).  I do have a lot of Dreads, ven dreads, and an Ironclad, plus 2-3 speeders. Legends them and my interest in marines drops greatly.

[Marshal Reinhard]

15 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Don't particularly like not being able to use my models, but I'm not surprised.

Legends is still valid now? Thats how you have to field the primaris company champion as well as other not currently sold models

[Lemondish]

1 minute ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Legends is still valid now? Thats how you have to field the primaris company champion as well as other not currently sold models

Unfortunately, I think most people play in groups or at stores that follow every matched play component even if it isn't a tournament. That's the impression I get from many sharing their experiences across this site and others. It's apparently matched play, every day.

[Marshal Reinhard]

4 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Unfortunately, I think most people play in groups or at stores that follow every matched play component even if it isn't a tournament. That's the impression I get from many sharing their experiences across this site and others. It's apparently matched play, every day.

I see. Though I barely play. Sort of defeats the purpose of legends. Sad to know my primaris comp champion is unfieldable

[Cryptshadow]

15 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Legends is still valid now? Thats how you have to field the primaris company champion as well as other not currently sold models

what lemonfish said but also, i don't think many would mind you just proxying the old dreadnaught for the new redemptor, maybe you might need to talk out the height or the model out or something to make them being smaller less of an advantage 

[Lemondish]

5 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I see. Though I barely play. Sort of defeats the purpose of legends. Sad to know my primaris comp champion is unfieldable

I suspect it's because it's not a model that is easily accessible. That was one of the limited edition items, right?

 

The only thing that Legends does is suggest not to use it in tournaments, and in turn is not part of any balance consideration nor points updates. Since most people follow the tournament scene very closely, they apply all of those same customs to their friendly matches as well. This doesn't surprise me, and I think it's because a lot of players appreciate the time and energy spent by GW trying to ensure a semblance of balance in the competitive tournament scene. If the idea is to have a friendly, but balanced matchup, units that are specifically identified as not being updated by the GW rules team is an undesirable additional variable that could throw off that balance.

 

Though, I can't actually believe that some of these units would be a problem. The Primaris Champion least of all.

 

I personally prefer Crusade over nearly every other style of play in 40K, and Legends units are perfect in that environment.

[DesuVult]

Legends isn't updated as the edition progresses and causes situations where the datasheets don't function in a reasonable manner.

[Arkangilos]

39 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Unfortunately, I think most people play in groups or at stores that follow every matched play component even if it isn't a tournament. That's the impression I get from many sharing their experiences across this site and others. It's apparently matched play, every day.

People need to stop playing with those rules then. 
If they (the players) don’t like it, find others in the community that don’t like it, organize, and say you won’t play or buy from the store until they take a more casual approach to gaming.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Wispy]

like others have said, I doubt this includes Venerable Dreadnoughts - I suspect codex, blood angel, and space wolves varieties of those are fine. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Wispy

[Marshal Reinhard]

28 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

I suspect it's because it's not a model that is easily accessible. That was one of the limited edition items, right?

Yes sure, but that's besides my point. If Legends was introduced as a way to make sure ancient models, or models not readily available or whatever, were always playable, its been undone by Legends at large not being accepted.

[Wispy]

2 hours ago, lansalt said:

I want to believe that the Castraferrum is too iconic to go OOP, and at least it should get a new 30k kit. But other kits like the old Land Speeders and bikes/attack bikes are going to dissapear for sure.  I'm fact I'm surprided that Centurions are still a thing when Agressors are their clear replacement.

the age of the kit is a factor here. the titanium molds start to wear down over the years. As was often the case, if they were in a position that we would have to do a new titanium mold, the expense was so great that they designed whole new kits to go with it (which is what you saw with new Tactical Marine and Assault Marine kits circa 7th edition).

[Legionary Pallas]

I personally don't see the Redemptor as a valid alternative to the Castraferrum at all. Maybe the differences in size matter less in crunch, but to me the Redemptor is a bloated, overgrown thing, that belongs in the same class as the Leviathan chassis which it is roughly the same size as. It just isn't comparable to the Castraferrum to me, it's like comparing a Leman Russ to a Baneblade.

[Lemondish]

5 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Yes sure, but that's besides my point. If Legends was introduced as a way to make sure ancient models, or models not readily available or whatever, were always playable, its been undone by Legends at large not being accepted.

Absolutely, I agree.

 

But another poster made a fantastic point. It's a community perspective issue, so find or build a local community with a better perspective on these units. It can't be solved by GW, because they have already indicated that it is totally legal in all game modes. If Legends are not being accepted because of the community at your local club or store, then nothing can really be done to fix that by GW outside of ALWAYS supporting every model ever made ever (impossible). The community perspective would need changing instead.

 

Another thing, though...

 

Should these enter Legends, it begs the question of how a unit like the Stormraven will behave moving forward. Does it join them, as something built around ferrying these exact dreadnoughts?

 

 

[Wispy]

11 minutes ago, Legionary Pallas said:

I personally don't see the Redemptor as a valid alternative to the Castraferrum at all. Maybe the differences in size matter less in crunch, but to me the Redemptor is a bloated, overgrown thing, that belongs in the same class as the Leviathan chassis which it is roughly the same size as. It just isn't comparable to the Castraferrum to me, it's like comparing a Leman Russ to a Baneblade.

ah but it doesn't matter if you see it that way, GW does.

 

Redemptors are THE Dreanought of the contemporary 40k Space Marine line, and the Castraferrum is part of an old, legacy line that they're supporting until its time to retire the molds once and for all. They aren't teasing a Hellfire at Redemptor scale because they wanted to keep the Castraferrum around. Venerable Redemptors will be a thing one day, I have no doubt, likely with new and improved 'dont-burn-out-the-hero-inside' technology.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Wispy

[spessmarine]

Landspeeder, ehhh.

 

Boxnaught? Too much of a classic to ever be replaced.

 

 

[Lemondish]

All this talk about Redemptors burning out their pilots reminded me that I still haven't put on the countdown clocks for combat hours I had planned as a project for mine lol

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I imagine the base dreadnought isn’t selling much. I’d be very surprised if all variants of the dreadnought go to legends. My expectation is Venerable Dreads, and Chapter specific dreads (possibility of ironclad), aren’t going anywhere.

 

most iconic SM vehicles aren’t going anywhere. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire
Auto correct fail

[Orange Knight]

Bjorn will not be going anywhere. He's a named characters in plastic.

 

But I can believe that the other generic Dreadnoughts and various Speeders will be moved on to Legends.

 

I think the Redemptor variants cover the old boxnaughts pretty well, as do the Storm-speeders in respect to the older variants.