Rumour Valrak trusted rumor: Firstborn Land Speeder and Firstborn Dreadnought going to legends

[Xenith]

Fair enough, Unaware of them being veoted from the ones I attended. It'll be sad if they go.

[Malakithe]

Damn...imagine not liking innovation irl.

 

Trying to think of how many companies world wide have kept their same products unchanged for 30ish years...

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Tournaments followed the lead of GW and universally disallowed Legends. To my knowledge, they've not disallowed anything else in common usage and in fact whilst a good few years ago Forge World was disallowed from a few Tournaments (again following the lead of GW official) even that is generally accepted. 

To add to this:
 

Quote

 

Warhammer Legends will not form part of our ongoing balance review for the wider Warhammer 40,000 game – and we don’t recommend Legends units for competitive tournaments. This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee that everything they’re gaming with is easily available to everyone and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process.

 

Of course, organisers are also free to specify that they will be including Legends rules if they like, allowing the use of the full classic range at their event.

 

 

From the sounds of that, Legends are excluded unless specified.

 

From the Warhammer Fest Grand Tournament rules pack:

Spoiler

Quote

2.1 Army Construction
You will require an army of no more than 2,000 points to play at this event.

 

Details for choosing your army can be found in the most recent Grand Tournament Mission Pack.

When building your army, use all the most up to date Warhammer 40,000 found in the following Games Workshop and Forge World publications prior to a publication date of 28th April 2023.
• Warhammer 40,000 Core Book
• Codexes
• White Dwarf
• FAQs/Erratas
• Balance Data Slates
• Warhammer 40,000 Matched Play Supplements

Army lists should be presented in an easy to read format [...]

Doesn't mention Legends at all, so it's excluded from a big official GW event? 

Seems super fun to have your official GW units excluded from official GW events.

[Cryptshadow]

31 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

There is One Avatar datasheet.

There are many Avatars, ergo any Avatar mini from the ages is sufficient to play that One unit. The new minis are glow ups, nothing more.

 

There are Many types of Dreadnoughts existing at the Same time. Each with Different minis and Different datasheets. 

None are glow ups or replacement minis. They are different units.

 

There is Zero equivalence to that comparison. 

 

Hopefully GW have learnt from the Primaris First Born divide and deal with this issue wisely. There is no doubt Castiferrum minis will eventually be removed, the how is important. 

 

The comparison wasn't  about data sheets exactly it was me trying to explain there is a redemptor for each dreadnaught variant more or less for you to proxy your old models with, and that the different between a boxnaught and a redemptor is very small and not as big as what i've seen people write on this thread seem to believe.

And i was asking why the new avatar being twice as big with a different appearance is considered a glow up and not a replacement compared to a redemptor which is twice as big and has a slightly different appearance just like the Avatar. 

 

It didn't hit me until after i posted it but a lot of big tournaments will prob not let you use the old avatar which by people standards in the thread is a replacement. so it kinda made the argument mute because ethier way he cant play with ethier the small avatar or his small dreadnaughts in big tournaments. ( if all this is true)

Edited April 20, 2023 by Cryptshadow

[Redcomet]

3 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Damn...imagine not liking innovation irl.

 

Trying to think of how many companies world wide have kept their same products unchanged for 30ish years...

This. And honestly the people that play with the same minis for decades, aren’t really the key consumer companies are after.

[Interrogator Stobz]

2 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Damn...imagine not liking innovation irl.

 

Trying to think of how many companies world wide have kept their same products unchanged for 30ish years...

 

Liking innovation or not is irrelevant to this discussion. 

 

You can have innovation and traditional works at the same time.

Truly, it's a thing.

 

Nobody expects the minis to be produced forever. 

Just official rules. That is entirely possible. 

[Malakithe]

Just now, Redcomet said:

This. And honestly the people that play with the same minis for decades, aren’t really the key consumer companies are after.

Yep got to bring in the new blood new money somehow and old janky looking stuff wont do it

[Xanthous]

2 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Damn...imagine not liking innovation irl.

 

Trying to think of how many companies world wide have kept their same products unchanged for 30ish years...

 

Innovation is nice, but it's also sad that a venerable and incredibly iconic model might be going away forever. 

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

This. And honestly the people that play with the same minis for decades, aren’t really the key consumer companies are after.

Oh hey, wanna bet how old some of my Firstborn models are?

 

I bought my Venerable Dreadnoughts somewhere in the last 6 years, since I got back into the game in 8th Edition. I bought two Ironclads in 2021 to add more. Yes, sure, these are totally not what the company wants, right? 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Kallas
fixed typo

[Malakithe]

Just now, Interrogator Stobz said:

Just official rules. That is entirely possible.

I would agree if they were 100% digital as there is no harm in having endless pages of rules online but thats never been how GW works. They probably dont want to risk the generic SM book eventually going to 100+ pages in just datasheets.

 

Right now I think they are moving to a hybrid stage in the transition to full digital with 10th and something has to give somewhere

[siegfriedfr]

Imo the main problem people have with old units not getting replaced, seem to be tournament play, rules for Legended units, and the WYSIWYG that goes on there.

It's a 1% problem, therefore not something that should sparkle bitter debate, but acceptance and moving on.

 

In casual play, I have no problem with someone putting a Castraferrum on the table and saying its a Redemptor, if it has a fist and something that ressemble a gun.

Its not anything like someone asking to play a land speeder instead of a Falchion.

 

Embrace the new design and stop sticking to stuff that was made decades ago with limited sculpting possibilities like its some sort of Golden Goose.

[Kallas]

10 minutes ago, siegfriedfr said:

Embrace the new design and stop sticking to stuff that was made decades ago with limited sculpting possibilities like its some sort of Golden Goose.

No. Stop worshipping the new thing just because it's new.

[Redcomet]

12 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Oh hey, wanna bet how old some of my Firstborn models are?

 

I bought my Venerable Dreadnoughts somewhere in the last 6 years, since I got back into the game in 8th Edition. I bought two Ironclads in 2021 to add more. Yes, sure, these are totally not what the company wants, right? 

Good for you. But if they sold hand over fist, they wouldn’t get Legends now would they. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

8 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

This. And honestly the people that play with the same minis for decades, aren’t really the key consumer companies are after.

Your argument is based on an assumption that players of old minis only play with old minis.

 

Do you have any idea how rich us old fellas are?

And how large we want our classic armies to be?

There are another 25 or so tanks alone I would have bought in the next two years if OG Marines were still respected by GW.

 

GW may be aiming at new money, but forgetting old money isn't the wisest move. We have decades left to spend money. Do they want it?

Doesn't seem like it.

 

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Redcomet said:

Good for you. But if they sold hand over fist, they wouldn’t get Legends now would they. 

So it's only sales that determine Legends status? Ok. So when are Warp Spiders going to Legends? 

[Orange Knight]

Choosing to focus on the old Marines to the exclusion of the new ones is a decision based on nostalgic or narrative preference. I admit some of the newer models are questionable (Inceptors, Suppressors, ATV) but others are simply better scaled Marine models with new and exciting wargear.

 

Should a small minority of narrative focused individuals dictate how the range should operate on a practical level, and how streamlined the army is to collect, paint and engage in? 

 

Legends exists to keep these old units alive in perpetuity. I agree that GW isn't supported it as well as they should, and this is something they can definitely improve.

[Redcomet]

18 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Your argument is based on an assumption that players of old minis only play with old minis.

 

Do you have any idea how rich us old fellas are?

And how large we want our classic armies to be?

There are another 25 or so tanks alone I would have bought in the next two years if OG Marines were still respected by GW.

 

GW may be aiming at new money, but forgetting old money isn't the wisest move. We have decades left to spend money. Do they want it?

Doesn't seem like it.

 

If there was so many of you rich old players who have hundreds of old models yet to buy, then WHFB wouldn’t have died off, nor had there been a need for the Primaris line. But alas. 

[KnightofSigismund]

I feel like deep down everyone knew stuff like this was coming, people upgrade phones, tv’s, shoes, cars, game consoles etc. this really isn’t any different. 

[Kallas]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

Should a small minority of narrative focused individuals dictate how the range should operate on a practical level, and how streamlined the army is to collect, paint and engage in? 

1. How is the existence of older units dictating the way the range operates?

2. How are you determining that this is a small minority of narrative focused individuals?

2b. That's pretty reductionist, and honestly insulting. 

3. Primaris are not more or less streamlined than Firstborn. Unit roles are still the same, we just have lots of duplicated roles now, because Primaris were introduced and made that bloat happen.

4. If people want to engage with Firstborn, they should be able to; if people don't want to bother with Firstborn then they are perfectly capable of doing so. You consistently put out the notion that people are too stupid to think for themselves when determining how to engage with the hobby.

2 minutes ago, KnightofSigismund said:

I feel like deep down everyone knew stuff like this was coming, people upgrade phones, tv’s, shoes, cars, game consoles etc. this really isn’t any different. 

I refer you to this comment earlier 

Some of us knew that they were pushing Primaris as a replacement for years; and we were decried for calling it what it was (a replacement). Now it's happening, people are calling for more of it.

[Interrogator Stobz]

5 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

If there was so many of you rich old players who have hundreds of old models yet to buy, then WHFB wouldn’t have died off, nor had there been a need for the Primaris line. But alas. 

Another false premise. But sure, that's it, there was a "need" for the Primaris line. Lolz.

[Orange Knight]

1 minute ago, Kallas said:

1. How is the existence of older units dictating the way the range operates?

2. How are you determining that this is a small minority of narrative focused individuals?

 

1: You are demanding that GW keeps the entire range going in perpetuity, even though it has led to an extremely bloated and unfriendly codex that gets update piecemeal to the detriment of players. It also dwarfs other factions. They have decided to create the Primaris, it's as simple as that - both the corporate and creative arms of GW wanted this.

 

2: How do you determine that it isn't? Primaris are extremely popular, they sold big and ushered in the biggest period of growth for GW. I see them everywhere, most people are actively investing in and collecting them. I obviously don't have the figures, I imagine few do. I don't know anyone in person that ha rejected them - these individuals do exist, I am sure of it, but the internet has amplified their voice.

[Muck1ng]

It was solely the Primaris range that brought me back into the hobby at the start of 8th... 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Xenith

[Redcomet]

7 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Another false premise. But sure, that's it, there was a "need" for the Primaris line. Lolz.

Almost like getting people to buy an entire new range of minis has slightly better business prospects than remaking the same things over and over. 

 

“But they could add to the range” i hear you say.

 

We where all there when they did that, and every single new addition to the range got blasted with hatred from the grognards. 
 

Added to this there is also the creative aspect. The designers wanting to do new things, instead of “do a new tactical squad again” 

[Interrogator Stobz]

1 minute ago, Muck1ng said:

It was solely the Primaris range that brought be back into the hobby at the start of 8th... 

And the same range that made many leave. Not because they exist, but because of what they will eventually replace and they didn't wait.

That is why Both are important to our Hobby Community. We need more people from right across the spectrum, not less.

 

Not for you personally, but the thought that so many people think that removing someone elses options is somehow a good thing makes me wonder how healthy the community really is.

[Redcomet]

7 minutes ago, Muck1ng said:

It was solely the Primaris range that brought be back into the hobby at the start of 8th... 

 

I remember talking to the manager at my local gw store when they first where released. They couldn’t stock the shelves fast enough. Reminded him of the rush when AoS was released. And people bought minis that they sold almost none off before.