Rumour Valrak trusted rumor: Firstborn Land Speeder and Firstborn Dreadnought going to legends

[Wispy]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Pointless new models is not a better path.

'Pointless' is a funny thing to say. They look cooler, are more imposing, I like them more and prefer them.

 

You like your older stuff, fair enough, but lets not pretend the status quo needs to be the blueprint of going forward forever with no deviating. Roleplaying 'new stuff is heresy' is real life is quite tiresome.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Replacing sculpts is expected, periodically needed, and often desired. Removing units is telling long term customers that their prior business is not valued.

[Wispy]

9 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Replacing sculpts is expected, periodically needed, and often desired. Removing units is telling long term customers that their prior business is not valued.

you still have the models. you'll even still have rules. no one made you throw them out. 

 

+++SNIP+++

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz
Rudeness

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Wispy said:

I like them more and prefer them

I said basically that. But that GW chose to go with wholesale replacements instead of updates was, and is, unnecessary. Hence the reference to Terminators, where I've yet to see someone dislike them (I'm sure there are people who don't like them, and I've seen comments about wanting more Primaris influence, but not any outright dislike).

[Medicinal Carrots]

7 minutes ago, Wispy said:

you still have the models. you'll even still have rules. no one made you throw them out. 

 

+++SNIP+++! 

This rumor is about *removing* the rules from what is, like it or not, the standard for play.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz
Replying to rudeness.

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

It's especially ironic considering some of the models being defended were themselves replacements for older kits that were retired in turn.

 

It's the cycle of things.

9 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

This rumor is about *removing* the rules from what is, like it or not, the standard for play.

 

Set a new standard, because GW has been very clear that these units are still valid for all game modes.

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

It's the cycle of things.

It's not, it's a false equivalence. Furibundus appear to have been around for a few years; Castaferrums have been for a few decades.

There's a significant difference in scope with that, which is why the example of the Furibundus is flawed.

[Redcomet]

With a range this massive for one faction, of course some of the older models will get rotated out. 
 

Yall are just lucky. If you had been playing Warmachine ALL your current miniatures would be legends and only minis out in the new edition will be viable.

17 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

This rumor is about *removing* the rules from what is, like it or not, the standard for play.

Do you play in many tournaments? 

[Kallas]

Just now, Redcomet said:

Yall are just lucky. If you had been playing Warmachine ALL your current miniatures would be legends and only minis out in the new edition will be viable.

There's a reason why Warmachine has died out, at least in many areas. As someone who was part of the Scottish scene during MkII and MkIII, Privateer Press' decisions have been especially bad. Taking a leaf from their book is not a positive thing.

[Lemondish]

Just now, Kallas said:

It's not, it's a false equivalence. Furibundus appear to have been around for a few years; Castaferrums have been for a few decades.

There's a significant difference in scope with that, which is why the example of the Furibundus is flawed.

 

I cannot agree. They are identical in all ways that matter, in my eyes. The scope doesn't mean jack to me.

 

Not sure much else needs be said. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Furibundus are Nostalgia, Casteferrum are current.

Repeating past mistakes is no justification.

The passion here is a small but fair reflection of the goodwill GW stand to lose.

 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

Two very iconic units going out to pasture. Thankfully, I think they both have great looking successors. 

 

I think it's obviously going to be upsetting to some fans but you still have the ones you own! GW aren't coming round your house and chucking your models in the bin. 

 

Modern GW kit sare just so superior to old ones due to the newer molds, CAD an d the way they design minis these days.

 

I emplore you all to enjoy old kits but embrace change and moderninity, we get nicer kits that way.

[Kallas]

Just now, Interrogator Stobz said:

Furibundus are Nostalgia, Casteferrum are current.

Thank you, yes, this is what I was struggling to put into words.

 

Castaferrum are. They exist, right now, as they have for decades. Some of the love for them is nostalgia, but to claim it's just nostalgia is dismissive.

Just now, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

GW aren't coming round your house and chucking your models in the bin.

They are chucking the rules in the bin, so people won't be fielding their official GW models in official GW events (since they recommend not using Legends in Matched Play, which is far and away the most universally accepted way to play the game).

[Interrogator Stobz]

@ChapterMasterGodfreyIt's not about the new models.

It's about rules for current models moving forward once they are OOP.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[BitsHammer]

Some scuttlebutt around GW was that they moved warehouses because of rising costs in the UK and the new location is less fit for purpose than the old one. Paired with I am assuming a large number of kits for the edition change (because they are likely predicting Indomitus numbers at least) and it's possible the warehouse just doesn't have the room to keep old kits that people already have multiples of, which leads to them being pulled from the store and eventually the game (the latter being related to the Chapterhouse fallout years ago).

 

The lack of warehouse space may also account for why some products seem to take forever to restock: there just isn't room for them so they aren't making them over products that are more popular and sell regularly.

 

That is speculation on my part though as I live in bear country, Montana not the Nottingham.

 

Now I hate to say it but the health of the game means at some point, even if they weren't having logistics issues, old stuff needs to retire just to cut down on bloat. Even if you ignore Primaris the Marine line is one of the largest had the worst internal balance as a result. Add in the Primaris line and we now have around a hundred datasheets and the internal balance just keeps getting worse. Even if GW isn't looking at warehouse space, the studio must be looking at thirty plus years of legacy support and pulling their hair out trying to make a more balanced 10th Ed, which has likely contributed to cuts, especially if they have replaced the models with newer ones.

 

And no, the lore about killing Marines doesn't have to stay canon, they could always find a reason that isn't true anymore just to keep older characters around.

 

Basically, as much as it stings, and I do think it stings as someone who tracked down some Land Speeders for my return to my first army (Dark Angels, I have been listening to the Horus Heresy books and have had some ideas thanks to new lore), but it's something that has to be done eventually. I know people don't like to hear it but at some point they need to take stuff out of the game to make the game healthier.

 

Worst case for me is stockpiling those Ravenwing bits to use on Primaris bikes and speeders for example. At least that'll let me use those old kits in some small way going forward.

 

EDIT: Something that crossed my mind after hitting post is that I don't think it will stop at Land Speeders and Boxnaughts.

 

Like we have Primaris Bikes and the ATV so bikes might not be safe from being pulled.

 

Older Chaplain and Librarian sculpts could be retired as well.

 

Especially anything still not in plastic but has a plastic Primaris equiv could likely go away.

Edited April 20, 2023 by BitsHammer

[Cryptshadow]

2 hours ago, The Unseen said:

Anyone arguing that a model update and a whole-sale replacement are exactly the same thing need a reality check. When the Avatar got a shiny new model, it didn't invalidate any of the lovingly painted ancient ones people had, or the expensive resin one from FW, and for the most competitive players the most that would have to be done is a base swap. Or the new Howling Banshee sculpts, or Ork Boyz, or the multitude of tactical marine boxes over the years, etc. You didn't have to replace the old ones, but you wanted too because the new models looked cool.

The Castaferum Dreadnought being replaced by the Redemptor is just that, a replacement. The models are too dissimilar in both size and weapon configuration for it to be viable to use a Castaferum to represent the new model, just like the Attack Bike and Speeders have pretty much direct replacements that are not backwards compatible as it were, you're going to have to buy the new one to use it on the table in anything other than the friendliest of games. This is not something to be happy about, *most* previous model updates it was easy to use the older model in place of the new one if you wanted too, but they sold because the model looked better thanks to improvements over time. A good example of that is the Terminator. Were on what, the 4th new kit for standard terminators coming up? But theoretically if you had some old 2nd edition pewter terminators, if you wanted to use them in 10th, you'd just need to swap out the old 25mm bases and they'd be tournament legal. Not so for the rumored Dreads, Speeders, or Bikes. In effect *Forcing* players to buy new models to keep playing with the same units. Its been a problem looming ahead with Primaris the whole time; and its a major departure from what has happened in the past. Making the new units *just* different enough to not be swappable was a terrible decision from the beginning and was one of the reasons Primaris were regarded as a blatant cash grab by some of the fanbase at the beginning, whereas new Terminator sculpts are just that, cool new sculpts.

 

Anyone who thinks Legends units will be updated/usable in 10th for anything other than the most casual of settings, I have a newly built bridge you might be interested in. They didn't do it in 9th and I don't see them doing it in the future, and unless the competitive community undergoes a massive shift they still aren't going to be usable in even RTTs.

So, id like to focus on the avatar example you used,  you said it didn't invalidate the old model , true, but then for your example of the boxnaught vs the redemptor  your saying they are too different in both size and weapon config for it to be viable for the box naught to represent the redemptor.  First, the avatar is about twice as big as the old model not from fw, compared to the fw one its about 1/3rd bigger, but again it didn't invalidate anyone's old avatar model as you say, so the redemptor being larger doesn't invalidate people's box naughts.

 

Second, the avatar you say isn't that different from the original model, but it has 3 different heads, a greek one, and a headless one where i must he has amazing hair, old model didn't have this. Weapons wise, the avatar has 2 new weapon configs compared to the old model that yes doesn't matter for games rules because luckily they just have one weapon profile which is great but it is very different from the old model. Now let's compare the old boxnaught vs the redemptor in terms of load out the big difference is side weapons on the body and the missile pod and the small minigun option on the arm. The body guns doesn't really matter. Smoke launchers you can say are the missile pods, minigun is just the bolter on the original. Load out wise all options are covered except for plasma ( the new redemptor with las and missile launcher is coming next so that covers that) but if you want to use plasma you can use the venerable dreadnaught that does have the plasma cannon.  Only load out you wouldn't be able to use would be las cannons with fist from the venerable dreadnaught and the heavy flamer.

 

So in your examples the avatar is not just an update but a replacement because its much bigger and it is quite different visually in load out compared to its old model, but it didnt invalidate the old model. So what exactly is this huge difference between the boxnaught and the redemptor that would invalidate you using it as a proxy for the redemptor, weapons? No, at least not the ones that matter in 10th there will be a redemptor loadout for every boxnaught load out ( the original), and if you have a very anal playgroup about WYSIWIG you can stick on some bolters to your old model for the side guns. Appearance wise its twice as big as the old model same as the avatar and again you say it didn't invalidate the old avatar model. So why would it invalidate the boxnaught from being a redemptor? To me there just doesn't seem to be that big a difference, other than 2 loadouts for a venerable dreadnaught. Ironclad? brutallis, ironclad with 6 freaking bolters? brutallis with 6 freaking bolters, Furioso? brutallis  

 

I wont lie i like redemptoris more than boxnaughts so if this is true its not a big deal, but i also don't think it is that big a deal for old collectors because gw is coming out with all the old load outs that your boxnaughts already have which is great, if you dislike the redemptor you don't need to buy it you already have the dreadnaught in your collection ready to use. It should be as simple as you said as changing the base size as the avatar was, maybe you will to create a cork mountain for a base but while that does suck and is extra work it wont invalidate your models. Talk with your TO's and your opponents if you think you won't be able to, explain your situation ( i hope this didn't come off as confrontational i just want everyone to be happy ! :D )  

 

Edit: also the avatar model was a replacement not just an update to the old model, ( and width wise i cant help you, and for big tournaments, over time it would be harder or near impossible to proxy the boxnaught for a redemptor because of dimensions, just like the old avatar model today )

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Cryptshadow

[Lemondish]

5 minutes ago, Kallas said:

They are chucking the rules in the bin, so people won't be fielding their official GW models in official GW events (since they recommend not using Legends in Matched Play, which is far and away the most universally accepted way to play the game).

False.

 

"The Warhammer 40,000 Legends page contains datasheets and additional wargear options, definitive profiles that will live on their own dedicated page, enabling you to unleash your treasured classics in open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games."

 

The only place these units are not accepted are if a tournament organizer says so.

 

Or if you apply that limitation to your own games, but then who is at fault there lol

 

9 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Some of the love for them is nostalgia, but to claim it's just nostalgia is dismissive.

 

Yes, it is dismissive, because this whole pearl clutching extravaganza is a fabricated silly little show. Legends isn't killing units unless you choose not to play with Legends units, in which case you really should just be upset at yourself. To deny someone the use of these models you need to act contrary to the stated intent of what Legends rules are for and do, and you need to act against your own interests in the matter.

 

It's a curiously self-destructive approach that evokes Baton Roue.

[Kallas]

16 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

EDIT: Something that crossed my mind after hitting post is that I don't think it will stop at Land Speeders and Boxnaughts.

Like we have Primaris Bikes and the ATV so bikes might not be safe from being pulled.

Older Chaplain and Librarian sculpts could be retired as well.

Especially anything still not in plastic but has a plastic Primaris equiv could likely go away.

The funny thing is that some of us have said exactly this since the beginning, but back then we were decried as being paranoid and outrageous.

Now people are actively calling for it to happen.

[Captain Idaho]

I find it an odd position to expect people to be happy about their toys going to legends with the usual "you can still play."

 

Except I'm not allowed to play at events. So that sort of discrimination is ok right? Maybe I want to attend events?

 

And we all know the rules are out of date quickly with legends and often totally unbalanced. Calgar being a great example of a model that utilised older versions of the Chapter Master rules and had the wrong points costs.

 

If legends were more fairly updated it wouldn't be terrible, nor would it be terrible if GW employed someone to do it fairly using the might of the Internet to provide people access to rules for no printing costs to GW.

 

GW have been making money hand over fist recent years right? So they can employ someone to do it. Hell, they could reach out to communities like this one to ask a fair update for free if they really wanted! The options are there and easy to utilise really.

[Interrogator Stobz]

There is One Avatar datasheet.

There are many Avatars, ergo any Avatar mini from the ages is sufficient to play that One unit. The new minis are glow ups, nothing more.

 

There are Many types of Dreadnoughts existing at the Same time. Each with Different minis and Different datasheets. 

None are glow ups or replacement minis. They are different units.

 

There is Zero equivalence to that comparison. 

 

Hopefully GW have learnt from the Primaris First Born divide and deal with this issue wisely. There is no doubt Castiferrum minis will eventually be removed, the how is important. 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Kallas]

15 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Or if you apply that limitation to your own games, but then who is at fault there lol

Ah yes, having to ask every opponent their permission to use official models that didn't need to be shuffled off, such a wonderful feeling. The simple fact that these models will need permission to be fielded at all is ridiculous.

 

Right now? Sure, no one will have a problem with it (especially because right now they're not Legends yet), but as Codexes roll out and leave the Legends units behind, then it becomes more and more of a problem; especially with Matched Play. You said that they have rules for use in Matched Play, but the whole point of Legends is to leave them in the dusbin to rot, because they aren't getting adjusted to the game - so these units become awful to field (and I think everyone has units that they love that they've stopped running, at least temporarily, because they just feel bad to use: Legends is doubling down on that exact situation and is, in fact, engineering it to be the case).

[Xenith]

13 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I find it an odd position to expect people to be happy about their toys going to legends with the usual "you can still play."

 

Except I'm not allowed to play at events. So that sort of discrimination is ok right? Maybe I want to attend events?

 

Those are all at the discretion of the TO though, not GW. TO's have always applied limitations to events, case in point, whe wholesale banning of Votann from tourneys last year, and the general rule that a new codex isn't allowed for use until it's had one FAQ. 

 

So yes, Tourney Organisers may discriminate against you, but they do it for a lot of stuff.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

3 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

Those are all at the discretion of the TO though, not GW. TO's have always applied limitations to events, case in point, whe wholesale banning of Votann from tourneys last year, and the general rule that a new codex isn't allowed for use until it's had one FAQ. 

 

So yes, Tourney Organisers may discriminate against you, but they do it for a lot of stuff.

 

 

 

Tournaments followed the lead of GW and universally disallowed Legends. To my knowledge, they've not disallowed anything else in common usage and in fact whilst a good few years ago Forge World was disallowed from a few Tournaments (again following the lead of GW official) even that is generally accepted. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

@XenithThat doesn't make it any better Brother.

 

Hopefully GW save the day in a meaningful and official capacity. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Rhavien]

*looks at his seven boxnaughts* 

Let's see which ones will disappear...