Rumour Valrak trusted rumor: Firstborn Land Speeder and Firstborn Dreadnought going to legends

[Lemondish]

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

which bit exactly? The bit where I said GW could have just merged the sheets, keeping everyone happy? I literally acknowledged that people love them and should get to keep using them. :/

Don't stop using them. They'll have 10th edition rules, guaranteed, and don't let somebody tell you you can't used it in any game mode pickup game.

 

Now, if you were planning on using them in Tournaments, that's probably the only place where you actually won't be able to.

[BrainFireBob]

6 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

The issue with the Dreadnought being retired is the replacement is anything but direct, it's a straight up different unit. It's bigger, differently designed and according to the fluff pretty useless at the main thing Dreadnoughts were designed for (keeping veterans alive forever). It's not a case of "We're replacing the MkV Dreadnought kit with a new, better sculpted MkV Dreadnought" it's "We're taking an iconic unit and replacing it entirely with a very different and totally incompatible unit". Because no matter what anyone says, a Redemptor Dreadnought is not a Castraferrum. And speaking for myself as someone who loves the Castraferrum, I'm pretty peeved at the idea of it being sidelined so GW can sell a bigger, more expensive and IMO at least worse looking "replacement".

 

I'm actually getting a bit sick of the "Oh, well Firstborn units are redundant because of [X]"! argument, as if [X] needed to exist in the first place and its existence isn't what created the redundancy to begin with. Honestly, speaking as someone who started neutral towards Primaris, if I were rich and powerful I'd be performing a hostile takeover of GW at this point just so I could retire the entire Primaris range, retcon them from existence, bring out actual rescaled Marines, and should my actions cause GW to go belly-up then as a last act of spite I'd release the entire IP to the public domain along with free .stl files of the entire model catalogue...Except Primaris.

I've literally had the exact same thought

[Dried]

10 hours ago, DesuVult said:

Legends isn't updated as the edition progresses and causes situations where the datasheets don't function in a reasonable manner.

Last time I checked all space marine legends datasheet were updated after 9th edition codex to be fully compatible with the codex.

(Angels of death was added, chaplain could choose litanies etc).

For Mey they are totally playable, only the points aren't updated but it shouldn't be a problem in friendly game.

[happyslugger]

I think it's sad that some of these units are / may possibly be retired as they have been around since I started (circa 1995 ish).  When primaris were announced I kinda took the view that it meant my FB stuff would be redundant at some point so I sold all my BA bar a predator, jump pack chaplain, sanguinary priest and the original resin sculpts of the main characters.  I'm now building from scratch a primaris only BA army and the money raised has gone towards it. 

 

Hopefully in 10th I'll have built enough and purchased enough to actually play as BA as I've been playing (only occasionally) as other armies I own and haven't played as marines in a long while. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by happyslugger

[Tokugawa]

To merge all the old dreadnought products into a "relic dreadnought" profile would be a more polite treatment, and will offend less customers.

[ArielRSA]

I have no love for the old marines aesthetic or models but taking away things like this is a poor (and IMO anti-consumer) move. A mass consolidation of profiles (old marine and Primaris) would be a superior decision

[Orange Knight]

We have to accept that certain models will be retired or replaced from time to time.

 

Supporting a massive range of models, some of which are old and perhaps don't sell, will ultimately create issues. GW don't have infinite resources or storage space, we complain when a new kit sells out because they haven't manufactured enough of them - Maybe the fact that they have so many existing kits to maintain has an impact on this.

 

The Redemptor is a worthy successor to the old Box Dread. It had a lot of visual similarities, except that it actually looks like it can walk and fight in close combat.

Ultimately, the models will live on in Legends, so they can still be used. I just hope that Legends is well maintained. 

[Kallas]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

The Redemptor is a worthy successor to the old Box Dread

No, it's not.

[Orange Knight]

5 minutes ago, Kallas said:

No, it's not.

 

In my opinion the Box Dread was not a worthy successor to the Furibundus but what can you do?

 

We have to be careful not to allow nostalgia to blind us to everything new or different. 

 

GW have replaced and retired models before. They will do so again.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Orange Knight

[siegfriedfr]

I really don't understand people who will pester GW to maintain old sculpts made with ancient technology, when they have brand new and updated kits like the Redemptor which looks like a better castaferrum.

 

It really seems its about YOUR personal collection getting squatted by GW in your own home. If you already own one of those old models that people won't buy anymore, when looking at the Redemptor next to it, why do you care ?

 

You're simply asking that GW keeps all models ever produced in production, blocking valuable production time from newer, better, sculpts.

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

We have to be careful not to allow nostalgia to blind us to everything new or different. 

Pointless new models is not a better path.

[Orange Knight]

It's especially ironic considering some of the models being defended were themselves replacements for older kits that were retired in turn.

 

It was mentioned in another topic, but it comes down to people having an irrationally strong attachment to some models they fell in love with when they were kids, and the new stuff can't compete with that because adults simply don't get as excited or attached to things in the same way.

 

 

@Kallas

 

So you think that the Box Dread is an abomination that shouldn't exist because it replaced the Furibundus? 

[Captain Idaho]

See, I'm not sure we have to accept units will be retired. Looking at Orks or Eldar... the models get updated but the Avatar is still there, their versions of Dreadnoughts are still there, Battle Wagons are still there...

 

I think the old Ork buggies, Scorchas and Wartraks are the only units truly gone? And being Orks they can count as much easier because all their weapons are pretty uniquely designed in the fluff.

 

Not sure what else. Still got Jetbikes and Vypers and Falcons etc. Necrons lost Pariahs (which I loved) but they could easily count as Lychguard, so that was an update really.

 

Tau are still here but weren't updated to be dead on bases for all other models, sadly.

 

I think it's fair to say no one is refusing to see that a model is being updated and that's cool. Dante is a great example of that.

 

But there is a world of difference to being updated and being replaced.

[Orange Knight]

An update doesn't have to be exactly the same as what came before. It can be bigger, it can have more articulation or power, etc.

 

The Redemptor is a bigger box Dread. It has a lot of similar to the old kit, and in 10th it's even getting a recognisable Mortis configuration. 

 

[Captain Idaho]

The Redemptor has a billion guns on it. It's about the same as a Repulsor to a Land Raider in that regard.

 

Still, if tournaments let me play my Dreadnoughts are count as Redemptors then that's cool.

 

Or GW does a decent job of maintaining Legends this time round?

[spessmarine]

8 hours ago, Xirix said:

If this is a sign that the sculpt will eventually be retired from 40K I hope the success of Heresy 2.0 will perhaps encourage them to make a slightly updated boxnaught with the siege dread options that 30K has, though they haven't made anything plastic for the Legacies units as of yet...

Think there was a rumour about Castaferrum dreads released for HH. Given how the rest of the core marine range has been updated through HH, I find it quite believable that the trend continues.

Rescaled maybe in-line with the contemptor dread.

[Cyrox]

Not going to comment on the looks/preference of Boxnaught vs Redemptor, been covered enough.

 

For the lore, surely a simple fix would be a line in the new SM codex along the lines of:

 

"In the early Indomitus era, lack of understanding and prolonged combat was burning out Redemptor pilots, but now Belisarius Cawl has discovered a way to stabilise the pilot environment, and provided they rest in stasis between deployment, survivability and longevity of the pilot has increased tenfold."

 

That way if they do eventually retire ALL the boxnaught versions, at least Bjorn gets a new upgrade.

 

For now I think only the standard one will disappear.

[The Unseen]

Anyone arguing that a model update and a whole-sale replacement are exactly the same thing need a reality check. When the Avatar got a shiny new model, it didn't invalidate any of the lovingly painted ancient ones people had, or the expensive resin one from FW, and for the most competitive players the most that would have to be done is a base swap. Or the new Howling Banshee sculpts, or Ork Boyz, or the multitude of tactical marine boxes over the years, etc. You didn't have to replace the old ones, but you wanted too because the new models looked cool.

The Castaferum Dreadnought being replaced by the Redemptor is just that, a replacement. The models are too dissimilar in both size and weapon configuration for it to be viable to use a Castaferum to represent the new model, just like the Attack Bike and Speeders have pretty much direct replacements that are not backwards compatible as it were, you're going to have to buy the new one to use it on the table in anything other than the friendliest of games. This is not something to be happy about, *most* previous model updates it was easy to use the older model in place of the new one if you wanted too, but they sold because the model looked better thanks to improvements over time. A good example of that is the Terminator. Were on what, the 4th new kit for standard terminators coming up? But theoretically if you had some old 2nd edition pewter terminators, if you wanted to use them in 10th, you'd just need to swap out the old 25mm bases and they'd be tournament legal. Not so for the rumored Dreads, Speeders, or Bikes. In effect *Forcing* players to buy new models to keep playing with the same units. Its been a problem looming ahead with Primaris the whole time; and its a major departure from what has happened in the past. Making the new units *just* different enough to not be swappable was a terrible decision from the beginning and was one of the reasons Primaris were regarded as a blatant cash grab by some of the fanbase at the beginning, whereas new Terminator sculpts are just that, cool new sculpts.

 

Anyone who thinks Legends units will be updated/usable in 10th for anything other than the most casual of settings, I have a newly built bridge you might be interested in. They didn't do it in 9th and I don't see them doing it in the future, and unless the competitive community undergoes a massive shift they still aren't going to be usable in even RTTs.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Minis will never be made forever. 

We can be certain of their finite lives.

Rules are different, a PDF takes up zero space and takes a few hours a year to check and update.

Whilst there is cost to that, goodwill is important. I know many people who are walking away from 40k because of these practices, if they stayed they would buy books and occasional minis. 

The reward for the effort would undoubtedly be worth it to GW.

 

[Brother Carpenter]

37 minutes ago, siegfriedfr said:

I really don't understand people who will pester GW to maintain old sculpts made with ancient technology, when they have brand new and updated kits like the Redemptor which looks like a better castaferrum.

 

It really seems its about YOUR personal collection getting squatted by GW in your own home. If you already own one of those old models that people won't buy anymore, when looking at the Redemptor next to it, why do you care ?

 

You're simply asking that GW keeps all models ever produced in production, blocking valuable production time from newer, better, sculpts.

Right, but is it too much to ask if I can still play with mij 20+ years collection that also embodies a substantial financial commitment?

Maybe I'm done building and just want to play tournaments/venues and can't be bothered or am financially unable to buy new kits?

 

I think the biggest problem is the fact that a lot of people feel left in the cold because the fear losing the ability to play with their beloved mini's. I sure know I'm in that corner.

[Arkangilos]

I think a lot of this could be fixed if GW licensed out their 3D designs for printing at home. 
 

“Box Dread is gone, but if you like it you can use the rules for the Redemptor minus the extra guns, and if you subscribe to Warhammer + you can get the license to print this model (no resale is allowed).” 

You can do that with other legacy units, too. Or make it so if you have Warhammer + you can do something like Hero Forge, but get a monthly credit. You can print at cost (like Hero Forge), but you can offset that cost with the monthly credit.
 

It makes Warhammer + much more appealing, allows people to keep printing. 
 

Oh the dreams of what we could do if they did something like Hero Forge and Warhammer+.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Kallas]

50 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

So you think that the Box Dread is an abomination that shouldn't exist because it replaced the Furibundus? 

+++SNIP+++

 

It'd be more accurate to go for a theoretical new Super Redemptor next year that completely replaced the Redemptor with basically no similarities other than it being a walker.

 

The Furibundus, as far as I can even find, was a 1st edition thing and was talked about as an early Legion walker. It also wasn't piloted by a critically wounded Marine, but did drive the pilot mad eventually.

 

+++SNIP+++

 

48 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

See, I'm not sure we have to accept units will be retired. Looking at Orks or Eldar... the models get updated but the Avatar is still there, their versions of Dreadnoughts are still there, Battle Wagons are still there...

This is exactly it. Firstborn never needed to be replaced. That they are being replaced (+++SNIP+++) is just a bland money grab. GW wants more profits, so dump Firstborn in the bin instead of updating the line like other factions (eg, Necron Warriors got a glow up: but they're still Necron Warriors!)

 

Ultimately, Primaris never needed to exist, and their sole reason for existing of to deliberately push out Firstborn to squeeze more money out of Marine players. We know full well that newly scaled models would do just as well as we can clearly see from Heresy models and the new Terminators which have been received well by pretty much everyone.

 

+++SNIP+++.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz
+++CALM Please+++

[Arkangilos]

4 minutes ago, Kallas said:

they care about taking money,

Ignoring the rest of the unnecessarily aggressive post, but yes. They are a company that needs to make money. 

Could they have done better? Yes. But we have what we have, and models *do* get replaced.

 

Please don’t ruin the thread for everyone. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++LET'S REMAIN CIVIL BROTHERS. NAME CALLING AND ATTACKING A PERSON OR COLLECTIVE GROUP INSTEAD OF THE ARGUMENT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED+++

 

Be nice, change is painful. Don't make it worse for your fellow Hobbyists.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Captain Idaho]

 

12 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I think a lot of this could be fixed if GW licensed out their 3D designs for printing at home. 
 

“Box Dread is gone, but if you like it you can use the rules for the Redemptor minus the extra guns, and if you subscribe to Warhammer + you can get the license to print this model (no resale is allowed).” 

You can do that with other legacy units, too. Or make it so if you have Warhammer + you can do something like Hero Forge, but get a monthly credit. You can print at cost (like Hero Forge), but you can offset that cost with the monthly credit.
 

It makes Warhammer + much more appealing, allows people to keep printing. 
 

Oh the dreams of what we could do if they did something like Hero Forge and Warhammer+.

 

What a great idea that would solve a lot of the problems and artificially prop up Warhammer+ but also help that platform.

 

I also like a Made to Order model.

 

Goodwill helps businesses, as recent events in cinemas have shown.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Captain Idaho