Rumour Valrak trusted rumor: Firstborn Land Speeder and Firstborn Dreadnought going to legends

[Maritn]

I have no classic marines outside of my Assault Terminators and two Vindicators, and only the Vindicators might not be future proof, but I get why people are upset. Updating a model is one thing, but bringing out a different model and discontinuing another one is a big middle finger to your customers. No amount of talk will calm people with old collections.

 

I know I'd be pissed if they introduce Secundaris Marines 20 years from now, bring out a Salvator Dreadnought that is 50% bigger than the Redemptor, has 5 more Storm Bolters and one additional Stubber and then 5 years later discontinue Redemptors.

[spessmarine]

As mentioned before, good odds that the classic boxnaught gets refreshed for HH. Which should be very great.

May be a refresh of the MkIV or MkV.

MkIV has the benefit of just need some bits or a sprue to make a whole bunch of venerable dreadnought variants.

[DemonGSides]

I could not fathom being upset about something I purchased 20 years ago being semi-obsolete.
 

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 minute ago, DemonGSides said:

I could not fathom being upset about something I purchased 20 years ago being semi-obsolete.
 

 

While I would agree, to be fair, not everyone bought theirs 20 years ago.

 

But if the kit is to be retired, and then moved to Legends, the cut off point would have to be close to someone's purchase

[Skywrath]

The boxnaughts, over time, have grown on me, and it will be sad to see them go, if true. The Land Speeders not so much, but I hope that Darkshroud and the Vengeance don't follow suit as they are both Land Speeders. Compounding onto the above removals, I hope the contemptor and the leviathans stay, although as they are older and hence rarer canonically, I doubt this. That will sting, again if true.. 

 

That being said, this shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone playing this game. We all knew this was inevitable - the firstborn range phased out for the primaris range. This is sadly one of the symptoms of their doom. If this is, I hope primaris get the same amount of customability on their firstborn units that they are replacing, to compensate. Doesn't mean I won't miss playing with firstborn units, but all of this (again if true) was as@Interrogator Stobz pointed out, inevitable. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Skywrath

[Kallas]

11 minutes ago, Skywrath said:

That being said, this shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone playing this game. We all knew this was inevitable

Thing is, we had Primaris players saying it was all overblown, that GW had said that they wouldn't and that people saying the replacement was coming were overreacting. And now we have Primaris players crowing about Firstborn getting canned.

 

So there's definitely some bad feelings going on with that.

 

(And yes, before you chime in Orange Knight, some Firstborn players have said mean things about Primaris too, it's not a one-way thing)

  

21 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

While I would agree, to be fair, not everyone bought theirs 20 years ago.

Yes, this. People act like just because the model has been a thing for 20 years (which, bear in mind, isn't quite true anyway, since some things have gone from metal to plastic, and sometimes even refined the plastic kit, eg, Tacticals) doesn't mean everyone bought them 20 years ago. Hell, I had a big collection of Terminators, Land Raiders and Vindicators about 15 years ago, all got lost in a move (that one hurt, and was one of the reasons I took a break), but then buying back in at the onset of 8th Edition, GW said they weren't going to remove Firstborn, that Primaris were not replacements.

 

Sure seems like those were hollow words.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Kallas
Second quote

[bigtrouble]

@Interrogator Stobz you've been earning your shekels in this thread.

 

Units that were moved to Legends in 9th: https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/#warhammer-40000

 

Within the Marine line (and holds true for other factions) it fell broadly into three categories: 

 

A) datasheets that did not have official kits, e.g. bike characters

B) character datasheets for older versions before Rubiconing, e.g. Marneus and the honour guard, Kayvaan Shrike, Khan

C) Vehicle mods or upgrades that are OOP, e.g. Rhino Primaris, LR Excelsior

 

If the kits themselves are being OOP, I would think this would not happen on the eve of launch. Last time, Legends were announced 6 months before 9th was released, and most of the units had been either OOP for quite a while, or were updated within the last year of 8th.

 

Speeders are out of stock, but dreadnoughts are still available, btw... make of it what you will.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

I got my first Dreadnought 20 years ago. I got my last one about 4 years ago with covid actually being a thing (so 2 in practical terms of social interactions) so it's not clear cut as "it's an old kit" as has rightfully been pointed out.

 

But I'm fairly sure if GW did decide to pull the plus on Primaris for some made up reason (as they won't) then folk wouldn't be happy about it and certainly wouldn't want folk on the Internet saying "well it's an 8 year old kit and you knew it would happen. Sorry, use the Legends rules". If you put yourself in those shoes honestly just for an exercise in empathy, there's no way you can deny it would be awful for models to be phased out.

 

The good news in this thread though is I actually think there's a lot of consensus. Most people accept models might be retired and most people accept the way Legends are handled is poor and needs more work.

 

I think overall, despite the spice around the edges of working out the details, there is broadly agreement.

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Yes, this. People act like just because the model has been a thing for 20 years (which, bear in mind, isn't quite true anyway, since some things have gone from metal to plastic, and sometimes even refined the plastic kit, eg, Tacticals) doesn't mean everyone bought them 20 years ago. Hell, I had a big collection of Terminators, Land Raiders and Vindicators about 15 years ago, all got lost in a move (that one hurt, and was one of the reasons I took a break), but then buying back in at the onset of 8th Edition, GW said they weren't going to remove Firstborn, that Primaris were not replacements.

 

Yep. Imagine if this had happened with another army that has older sculpts. Oh, your Eldar are not getting a resculpt, they are getting all new units that delete the ones you had before and do kind of but not exactly the same thing. Your Ork Boyz are Beast Snaggas now. Your Necron warriors are gone. Your Termagants are replaced with Von Leapy's Leapers.

 

Would we expect people to not complain because the sculpts are old?

 

I think people justify things for themselves by saying it only affects older players who had the absolute audacity to exist 20 years ago and buy things, but that is not the case.

[CL_Mission]

38 minutes ago, Skywrath said:

The boxnaughts, over time, have grown on me, and it will be sad to see them go, if true. The Land Speeders not so much, but I hope that Darkshroud and the Vengeance don't follow suit as they are both Land Speeders. Compounding onto the above removals, I hope the contemptor and the leviathans stay, although as they are older and hence rarer canonically, I doubt this. That will sting, again if true.. 

I very much doubt Contemptors and Leviathans are going anywhere as they just got brand new kits.

[Wispy]

one thing bothering me is everyone is assuming all permutations of the castraferrum are going to legends. which, fair enough, until we know for sure, the rumour can mean anything.

 

but i'd curious how folks would feel if it was just the datasheet associated with this kit that's going legends, and all other permutations staying supported? like, you say you can still run you castraferrum's as venerable dreadnoughts in tournament-scenarios for another decade (until that kit goes out of print or whatnot and they're rethinking how they want to do venerables in the current status quo, whether that's with a redemptor scale model or with a 10th edition terminator-style makover).

 

the scenario i propose there is just what i assume is actually happening. which, may be an incorrect assumption on my part, but it seems likely to me that the rules are getting de-prioritized for just the one ancient-kit-on-the-verge-of-going-out-out-print versus assuming every castraferrum style dread in every codex is going away.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Wispy

[Evil Eye]

Whilst I feel my "I am going to initiate Total Primaris Death" comments were perhaps a bit uncalled for and possibly influenced by having lost a lot of progress on a Blender sculpt I was working on thanks to a crash, I think I can use a similarly old kit as an example of my particular issue with the (ALLEGED) discontinuation of the Dreadnought- the Eldar Falcon.

 

Whilst utterly iconic, and IMO the base design has aged magnificently gracefully for the second oldest plastic kit still made (behind the Vyper!) there is no doubt the mold is very, very, very worn at this point and the kit could do with the Hive Tyrant treatment; a new, recut sprue which keeps the design identical but improves details and adds extra options, perhaps combining the Wave Serpent build into the box and if we're really good boys and girls, one of the FW Falcon chassis variants (Warp Hunter or Firestorm please!) would be very welcome.

 

What WOULDN'T be welcome is a new 50% larger grav-tank that takes the same basic beats as the Falcon but not quite right, which exists alongside the Falcon despite fulfilling the same role, with people being told the new one isn't a replacement and the Falcon is here to stay, only for the Falcon to eventually be discontinued and Legends'd.

[The Unseen]

If they want to roll every castaferrum pattern dread into one profile called "Venerable Dread" with options covering the variety of options the multiple kits have had over the years, that'd be more than acceptable. But that wouldn't require legends at all. In fact I'd bet most people would be fine with that, cut down the number of entries. I was worried that this was going to happen when they heavily reduced the focus on the boxnaught in the Heresy. The Contemptor was always the primary focus there, but they pushed the Boxnaught all the way into the released pdf rather than the core list. 

 

Most people seem to be more upset about the dreads than the speeders and bikes, probably because the latter kits are actually old looking and haven't been a core part of marine identity for literal decades (unless your a Khan) Though the Attack Bike replacement was a swing and miss anyway, your choice between stunted children driving a 650cc Ural bike or a Mario Cart reject, oof. 

 

As a BA player it's especially worrisome because of the unique dreads that have been ruleswise left to rot for a full edition, the Librarian Dread, Furioso, and DC Dread have been complete trash-fire since 9th released and they've been ignored. They don't even have CORE!  I have little doubt that if the boxnaught overall gets pulled to legends, they probably will too, and we'll be told to just pick up the new Redemptor pattern with claws and paint it black for a DC Dread, if we keep the option at all.

 

[Sgt.Sangha]

I think they should just combine all the data sheets for the speeders into 1 and let people use the models for an edition or 2. Im a white scars player and i just got my first 2 speeders 6 months ago and I am finally getting around to building them

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

While I would agree, to be fair, not everyone bought theirs 20 years ago.

 

But if the kit is to be retired, and then moved to Legends, the cut off point would have to be close to someone's purchase

 

I bought 100% of my dreadnoughts within the past 6 years and this doesn't even begin to raise ire with me; other people in this thread are acting like GW is coming to their house and forecfully melting their mini's into chunks of plastic, while simultaneously flagellating themselves about how mean primaris players are.  It's borderline ridiculous.

And that's my point; either the game continues to get larger, and larger, and larger, and larger, or we have to have some cut off.  Every faction has both lost and gained units over time.  White Scars lost their :cuss:ing Chapter Master for a while!

 

Mind you, this isn't even a confirmation, it's from Valrak, who's just as often wrong as he is right.  Meanwhile, we have people literally tearing their hair out over a rumor.  It would be funny if it weren't embarrassing lol

[Interrogator Stobz]

It's far more that once a mini goes OOP the Rules go Legends.

The Ire has very little to do with ownership or procurement of the minis.

Once the Rules are in Legends they become unplayable for many groups. Not all, many.

 

But wouldn't it be wonderful if the theory above comes true, where all Casteferrum Dreads and all Land Speeders just get amalgamated onto one respective Datasheet each.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[DemonGSides]

Definitely the cleanest of answers to what is, once again, a total rumor without even a shred of a hint of being real beyond "valrak said so."

And if your group says no Legends, get a new group.  Doesn't seem like your group and you are on the same wavelength anyways, as I've never met anyone who plays who wants to restrict what other people are doing.  Pretty much everyone I've ever interacted with in the hobby said "As long as you're consistent, I don't care what :cuss: looks like."

[Lemondish]

8 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Once the Rules are in Legends they become unplayable for many groups. Not all, many.

Probably need to form some better groups.

 

Jus' saying'

[Interrogator Stobz]

Move towns? OK. LOLZ.

Literally everyone here for example plays comp Rules, always. Even those that support old minis play the same way.

There are people in this discussion that would not allow it. They are consistently posting about how others should lose access to their rules. Those people exist and are common. 

 

Seems like there is an easier solution than making the victim of these possible changes change groups.

Encourage GeeDub to not create the problem by making Legends official and update them from time to time at minimal cost with maximal Community participation. 

Subtle but very important difference. 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[MithrilForge]

Where the hell were you guys when I lost some of my ork units from one codex to another …. I’d still have skorchas and wartraks….  

 

M 

 

[ZeroWolf]

45 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Definitely the cleanest of answers to what is, once again, a total rumor without even a shred of a hint of being real beyond "valrak said so."

And if your group says no Legends, get a new group.  Doesn't seem like your group and you are on the same wavelength anyways, as I've never met anyone who plays who wants to restrict what other people are doing.  Pretty much everyone I've ever interacted with in the hobby said "As long as you're consistent, I don't care what looks like."

To be fair to Valrak, the source is apparently the one who told him that vehicles were changing their transport rules months ago, hence why he started buying land raiders and Bladeguard.. a source who has now been proven right. Can they go 2 for 2? We'll see.

[Captain Idaho]

19 minutes ago, Mumeishi said:

Where the hell were you guys when I lost some of my ork units from one codex to another …. I’d still have skorchas and wartraks….  

 

M 

 

 

Still would have been on your side but the thing is, the numbers of people posting about it and the numbers of people saying "good I'm glad it'll be happening as I like new stuff" or whatever... is just so low unfortunately. 

 

Maybe that is a good point - we need to act more as a community on these things. I for one will definitely defend this position going forward to any army.

 

Well except if they squat Tau. They had it coming.

[roryokane]

I seriously hope not. I hate the idea of us losing our boxy and speedy bois.

[Kastor Krieg]

I love how everyone is "just get a new group, lulz", as if it were that simple of a solution. It's just so dismissive and disrespectful of the Frater who simply cannot.

I live in the suburbs of the largest city in my country (Poland). There's a literal ONE Warhammer store in the country. In my town there's a SINGLE club that plays 40k and no FLGS stores. Even if I commute into the city (which without a car takes me over an hour, after work, then play the game and come back at around midnight before another day's work), I'd still have a hard time finding a group or place that plays differently.

Literally almost everyone here has the stance of "40k is broken, the closest to balance are the comp rules, the comp rules are what we will always play". And comp rules players despise Legends, a similar "unbalanced" hate that in previous decades Forge World minis were disregarded with.

There are no other groups I can feasibly find to play with. My stuff going Legends means that my box dreads are dead weight and shelf decoration from now on. And I hate that fact, I'm absolutely furious.

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Kastor Krieg

[MithrilForge]

@Kastor Krieg- 

my condolences on your limited play circle and limit of GW market (we over in western countries don’t know how lucky we are really !)  I will say this though Poland has the best donuts in the world ever !! . 
 

I do lament people maybe losing a unit they play and love in this game we play,

I’m fine with it but it doesn’t mean I have to can other people because they’re upset, everyone here shares the same love of 40k … we need to be more caring and understanding, it doesn’t cost anything to be nice … 

 

M