Index: Blood Angels

[Karhedron]

5 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

@KarhedronOnly half your shots are TL on bolter aggressors. The 3.5+ (from Blast) from the grenade launcher aren't.

 

Good point. That definitely makes the Apothecary a bit more tempting.

[Rhavien]

I just realized that you won't never ever take more than one squad of sanguine guard anymore. The -1 to wound is tied to by lead by the warlord. You only have one warlord... 

Don't get me wrong, fluffwise I'm totally fine with that, but it's a weird game design decision. 

[Karhedron]

It looks like a knee-jerk reaction to the SangGuard spam lists that proliferated during 9th, particularly while Armour of Contempt was a thing.

[Paladin777]

I could see me taking a squad of 5 with a jump captain, but that's pretty much it. 

[Blindhamster]

I’m really glad they basically made sanguinary guard a single unit, it’s much closer to their lore.

[DemonGSides]

It would be nice if they were a bit cheaper.

Then again, I've got like 30 Death Company hanging around so I'm excited to run a bunch of them.

[Paladin777]

I hope they all have fists or TH's, because the other loadouts seem really overpriced, especially Chainswords!

[Xenith]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Interesting. Have I been seduced by the shiny synergies on offer? Is "more boys, fewer toys" the way to go?

 

In my opinion, outside of some niche characters, it's always been this way. Think about early 9th, for 150pts you can take:

Jump pack captain, relic blade, some pistol

5 sanguinary guard.

 

The latter had 10 wounds and 25 attacks on the charge compared to the captains 5 or 6 wounds and 6A on the charge.

 

You can add that captain to the sanguard to reroll 1's on those 25 attacks...however that's vastly inferior to just taking another 5 sanguard. 

 

Similarly with a priest, unless you were ressurrecting high value models (terms, attack bikes, inceptors, sanguard) then you were probably better off just spending the points on more of what you were trying to protect. 

 

In 10th, I want a character to do something better than marginal gains in output. Why spend 100pts on sustained hits when I can just increase the models in the unit? 

 

Is 5 assault marines with FNP better than 10 without? Probably not. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Xenith

[Rhavien]

Incidentally I have enough sang guard to get 10 guys, from which 2 have a fist and one the banner  lucky me. Well, just two have infernus pistols however. 

They were nerfed too btw. Now only D3 damage. Also they stayed at S8 while every other melta type weapon was given S9. 

 

What do you guys think what works for DC? Fists with pistol or just good old hammers? Power weapons for the extra attacks? Curious to hear what you think. As they have inbuild reroll the hammers could work. Chainswords or the big looser. I think they would need something like sustained hits or anti-infantry to be viable. 

 

[Xenith]

I'll preface this by saying I'm fully prepared for wargear options to be individually priced once the codex drops, so magnets are the best bet. I agree chainswords are left in the dust in terms of weapons, 1A is worth a lot less than +4S, -1AP, +1D etc. 

 

At the moment, I think fists are the clear winners. With the hammer, you gain devastating wounds, but lose an inferno pistol and +1 to hit.

 

This is a problem that is too glaring, and I'm sure GW will fix it with codexes, the indexes being a 'get you by' quick start version. plasma pistols and bolt pistols are the same points, however one is objectively superior. No way should these be the same points. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Xenith

[Paladin777]

For DC, either fists and special pistols, or hammers. Nothing else comes close. 
 

I still think that characters absolutely have a place. A jump librarian is fairly cheap at 75 points, and brings offense that is slightly better than the jump squads it can lead, plus a decent shooting attack. Given that, we can put it at a few points higher than VV's. Let's say his attacks and profile is worth around 30 points, as opposed to the VV's 26. Now the question is having -2 AP on your melee instead of -1 AP worth the extra 45 points? On a small squad, probably not. On a large squad, sure!

 

I think that's the way we need to think about characters. 
 

A SP has an offensive profile equal to an assault marine with CS. Assault marines average out to 23 ppm, but that includes a couple special weapons, so his profile is probably only worth around 20 points. However, is the remainding 90 points worth a 5+++ and -1 AP? On a 10 strong unit of VV with shields? definitely, as the FNP increases their durability by a full 50% on a regularly 260 point squad! On a 5 strong unit of assault marines? Absolutely not!

Edited June 19, 2023 by Paladin777

[Pathstrider]

6 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

 

This is a problem that is too glaring, and I'm sure GW will fix it with codexes, the indexes being a 'get you by' quick start version. plasma pistols and bolt pistols are the same points, however one is objectively superior. No way should these be the same points. 

I think GW will fix it when they do new models with less options ;-)

[Orblivion]

Lieutenant in Phobos Armour can Deep Strike, then his unit can make a normal move after they've made their shooting attacks.  So we're looking at a possible 3" charge from Deep Strike for that unit.  He can attach to Incursors, Infiltrators, or Reivers.  Something to think about.

[Morticon]

 

48 minutes ago, Orblivion said:

Lieutenant in Phobos Armour can Deep Strike, then his unit can make a normal move after they've made their shooting attacks.  So we're looking at a possible 3" charge from Deep Strike for that unit.  He can attach to Incursors, Infiltrators, or Reivers.  Something to think about.

There are a few inconsistencies (with 9th rulings) that I believe will be cleared up *VERY* quickly - some have already. 

 

The movement after DS/deploy is one of them. There are a few instances across various armies of movement after movement phase, and I I'm pretty sure these will all be FAQed out. 

 

Indirect and MW dynamics *have* to change too, but that may only come later. 

[Goranged]

1 hour ago, Orblivion said:

Lieutenant in Phobos Armour can Deep Strike, then his unit can make a normal move after they've made their shooting attacks.  So we're looking at a possible 3" charge from Deep Strike for that unit.  He can attach to Incursors, Infiltrators, or Reivers.  Something to think about.

 Rievers can deepstrike with the LT, move some and then charge as written. Infiltrators and Incursos can't deep strike. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Goranged

[Paladin777]

Every time a unit can set up less than 9" away with its own rules (like Inceptors), it's not allowed to charge afterwards. Hell, time flux (thousand sons trick to get an extra movement phase) doesn't allow charges after it, and it's just movement! I fully expect a clarification disallowing that riever charge trick. 

[Goranged]

Baal looking good. With range it could potentially generate almost 10 wounds to regular marines (some of them ignoring cover). With Assault  rule and extra flamestorm damage is looking good for anti infantry.

[Xenith]

12 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

For DC, either fists and special pistols, or hammers. Nothing else comes close. 

 

So getting devastating wounds is worth the WS sacrifice and loss of an inferno pistol? I disagree, but maybe I'm missing something there - they aren't concussive or anything anymore, and lost the D3?

[Rhavien]

22 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

So getting devastating wounds is worth the WS sacrifice and loss of an inferno pistol? I disagree, but maybe I'm missing something there - they aren't concussive or anything anymore, and lost the D3?

 

If you trigger the devastating Wounds effect the damage spills over. Means you splat two one wound models with one swing, but I also don't know if it's worth the disadvantages. Unfortunately someone decided to model the DC hammers as two-handed where every other sergeant and vanguard marine is capable to wield them with one hand. I guess that's the only reason why you loose the pistol.

I really don't understand what's going on in GWs mind with upgrade limitations. 

So 5 DCs can take 5 of everything, but that's not what's in the box. 

5 SGs can only take 1 fist per 5 models because that's what's in the box, but everyone can also take a plasma or inferno pistol, which are not in the box, but apparently their points incorporate that. 

 

Looking at the GW range and the release speed we will have those units for ages to come till they finally cycle out. 

I'm also pretty sure DC will get a points hike next time, because you'll see them only fully kitted out wreaking havoc across the battlefields. 

Do I dare to say I would have preferred them to get vanguarded in order to get some consistency points and equipment wise? 

 

Edit: If my math is correct a unit of 10 DCs with hammers get 5 sixes to wound with inbuilt reroll and without OoM. That's 10 MW ignoring saves and invulns. Not that bad. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Rhavien

[Paladin777]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:15 AM, Xenith said:

 

So getting devastating wounds is worth the WS sacrifice and loss of an inferno pistol? I disagree, but maybe I'm missing something there - they aren't concussive or anything anymore, and lost the D3?

I don't know if it's worth it either, but it's still better than either the chainsword or Pfist! Edit: I meant power weapon

 

honestly, if they wanted to truly balance the options, the CS should be 6 attacks, the PW-5, TH-4, and PF-3. 

 

that said, this is just an index! Other than painting one of my DC that's already modeled with a hammer, I'm not touching mine until our codex drops... or at least until a codex drops and we get to see more the general direction GW is taking things. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Paladin777

[Arkhanist]

When I did the mathhammer, the 3+ WS on the PF offsets the hammer devastating wounds a fair bit, given the existing -2AP, so the wounds inflicted per model are very close now.

 

If you're going after 1W infantry, where the 2 mortal vs a 2D hit does help, that's probably a bit of a waste of hammer DC when we have plenty of other tools for light infantry.

 

I think fist + inferno/plasma vs thunderhammer is mainly preference choice; the pistol hits will probably do more wounds in total than the small benefit of the hammer, but you also may never end up using them. If DC hammers weren't 2handed (because the 1 in the box is modelled that way) it'd be an easier choice. Certainly there's no point taking chainsword or powersword and bolt pistols any more though when they're already priced as if you'd taken fist/pistol or hammer. If you're taking a squad of 10, that's 100 points or so you're penalising yourself by by sticking with CS&BP, you'd be significantly better off taking e.g. a chainsword assault squad or intercessors instead. Obviously it's not as important in casual games, but even then, with the same problem across other squads, not fitting in transports etc, it adds up.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Arkhanist

[Jolemai]

5 hours ago, Goranged said:

Baal looking good. With range it could potentially generate almost 10 wounds to regular marines (some of them ignoring cover). With Assault  rule and extra flamestorm damage is looking good for anti infantry.

 

Uses are being discussed here now :)

 

 

 

[Vermintide]

Bit late to the discussion party here, but overall I'm pretty happy with the rules we got. Not the most powerful in the game, but I never wanted them to be; and at least these rules incentivise us to build a somewhat fluffy list. That's what I like to see, chruch and fluff in alignment. The Sanguinary Guard spam of 9th really irritated me. However, it does seem to me there's a few things that are a bit wierd and janky, which I almost certainly expect to change at some point.

 

For a start I fully expect points for wargear to come back in future- Otherwise what on earth is your incentive to run DC with chainswords, when they could all have power weapons and thunder hammers? There's going to be a lot of Counts As going on here for now, or at least there should be; but knowing this community I bet a lot of people will be rushing to model 30 TH JP DC. (I learned my lesson on this modelling a full unit with 8th ed loadouts which got made illegal in 9th- So now my models will always carry the "default" loadout, no matter what the current rules allow, because at least you can be sure GW isn't going to suddenly change that one.)

 

The Sanguinary Priest seems like he had a bit of an oversight in the wording of his joinable units. The impression I get is he was supposed to work like a Lieutenant, and essentially you're meant to be able to include him as long as you bring a Captain. He's not so much jointing the unit as he is joining the Captain, who is joining the unit. However RAW he can only join a handful of units and it makes him look kinda useless- I would be surprised if GW didn't intend to let you throw him into a squad of Bladeguard with a Captain for example. Maybe this hints at the eventual arrival of a Primaris Sanguinary Priest?

 

Lastly it seems we're going to be struggling for real anti-tank in melee this edition. Vehicles are much tougher, but our melee is still capping out at S9 for fists/hammers on the charge. I'm not quite sure yet if the strength value of attacks will turn out to be less relevant if we can lean on the Lethal Hits/ Devastating Wounds/Lance abilities, which we do seem to get quite liberally- Maybe that's the trade off here. But I suspect we might want to bring some lascannons to be safe.

 

Overall though in combination with the less restrictive army composition rules I think we have a lot of options here. I think I'm going to be building a few lists that fully eschew plain vanilla troops in favour of bikers, vehicles, and deep strikers. Terminator Captains giving re-roll charges makes deep-strike Assault Terminators pretty viable. DC have re-roll charges built in. Land Raiders and Baal Preds are definitely back on the menu.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Vermintide

[Blindhamster]

After looking at the combat patrol, I even more fervently hope that red thirst becomes a faction ability for us, not a detachment ability.

 

 

[Jolemai]

Legends of the Horus Heresy:

 

g3bIhhmp9MBUCeX6.pdf (warhammer-community.com)

 

I suppose I'm fine with most of these...

My Termite got some fun use in 9th and has been nerfed a bit. Now 6A base and Anti-Vehicle 3+, but damage stays D3+3. A critical wound on it's own does nothing really.

The Leviathan seems to have been toned down a fair bit though.

 

My toys:

• Relic Contemptor
• Leviathan
• Sicaran Battle Tank
• Rapier Carrier
• Whirlwind Scorpius
• Vindicator Laser Destroyer
• Dreadnought Drop Pod
• Termite
• Tarantula
• Cerberus

... I think I need some more