Space Wolves Index

[Wolf Guard Dan]

(We know some of this might be intentional but we are going to pretend like it was done in error to allow them to save face for bad design)

Please let me know if I missed anything or if I'm wrong. I'd like some feedback before sending my respectful email.

Running list of feedback with a respectful email:

 

Wolf Scouts being one wound. Codex Marine Scouts are two wounds.

Wolf Guard Terminators who take an assault cannon/heavy flamer/ storm bolter & cyclone missile launcher also lose their melee weapon (and an arm apparently).

Omission's: Wolf Priest and Rune Priest.

Wolf Guard, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Wulfen are missing their melee wargear entries. Similar bespoke units like Death Company, Sanguinary guard, Terminators of many factions, World Eater Eightbound all have their bespoke wargear entries. 

Please revisit the saga mechanism. Very difficult to achieve. Maybe by turn 3 you might have earned one of these sagas. Improve them by allowing multiple to be achieved a battle round.

 

Other important feedback- Death Watch Sternguard with Hellfire Rounds can put out an eye-watering amount of mortal wounds. 60 to the first infantry unit it shoots, another 60 to the second unit it shoots with bolter drill. Add in a Rites of Battle character to a second unit of ten and repeat. If they're shooting a vehicle it's about 1/3 the mortal wounds.

[Karhedron]

Send your emails to 40KFAQ@gwplc.com

 

Keep them polite but assertive. One of the advantages of digital rules is that they can actually be changed but only if GW realises just how upset people are about this. It is worth listing any or all of the following:

1. Wulfen and TWC getting nerfed into oblivion
2. Sagas being too hard to trigger meaning that our detachment rules will do nothing for the majority of most games
3. 1W Wolf Scouts
4. Heavy weapons TDAs getting no melee attacks.

The more emails they receive, the better the odds that some of this gets fixed.

 

The Dark Angels have got strong and fluffy rules with mechanics that interact with each other, particularly their resistance to Battleshock. There is no reason SWs cannot have decent rules too.

[Wispy]

try to be be polite and constructive and DO NOT put things in terms of 'NERFED INTO OBLIVION.' Do not be passive aggressive. There's nothing wrong saying "I am unhappy with this" and "I don't understand why this is different." 

 

i would use examples of inconsistencies from other factions that cause you to believe an error has been made.

 

For example, you can say "I feel this is an error and noticed this design is inconsistent compared to other Space Marine factions. For example, Black Templars and Blood Angel exclusive units such as Sword Brethren and Death Company Marines have access to distinct melee weapon profiles - including standard thunder hammer profiles - while the Space Wolves exclusive units like Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry do not. As a gamer I don't understand why this is different."
 

You could probably apply the same reasoning to Wolf Guard in power armour as well. There's no reason Death Company Marines should get to keep all their distinct melee weapon options while Wolf Guard get boiled down to heirloom weapons. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Wispy

[Tokugawa]

Many epic heroes receive decent profiles, but the detachment rules is weaker. 

 

This situation recommend SW players play "gladius force".

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Adding to list. Long fangs are missing adeptus astartes keyword

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I spent a few minutes typing this out while my wife watchers Real Housewives. Please feel free to use yourself or adopt and change as needed. Wispy I did plagiarize you a little bit but you did say "you can say" :p Thank you for your feedback it helped in designing my email below. The copy and paste ruined some of the formatting.

 

Feedback Regarding Space Wolves Index ATTN: Design Team

 

Greetings,

Thank you for your efforts in the creation of the new edition. I appreciate your hard work in redesigning the game we all love, Warhammer 40k. There were some errors in the index I wanted to make you aware of. There were also some areas I was unhappy with as a customer and many share my views on Bolter and Chainsword. I have some ideas for opportunities moving forward.

The errors are as follows:
Wolf Scouts are only one wound when Codex Space Marine Scouts are two.
Wolf Guard Terminators who take an assault cannon/heavy flamer/ storm bolter & cyclone missile launcher also lose their melee weapon (and an arm it seems). Thus they would not have melee attacks.
Long Fangs do not have the Adeptus Astartes Faction Keyword.
There were some design features that I was unhappy with:
Wulfen, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wolf Guard have generic weapons. This is inconsistent with other factions' bespoke units still having access to distinct melee weapons. For example, Black Templars and Blood Angel exclusive units such as Sword Brethren and Death Company Marines have access to distinct melee weapon profiles - including standard thunder hammer profiles - while the Space Wolves exclusive units like Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry do not. As a gamer I don't understand why this is different.
The omission of Rune Priests and Wolf Priests. I understand it is by design. But They do function differently to Librarians and Chaplains. For example Wolf Priests also function as the Chapter's apothecary equivalent.
Please revisit the saga mechanism. Sagas are difficult to achieve. Maybe by turn 3 you might have earned one of these sagas. Most other chapter detachments give them benefits from the start. Improve them by allowing multiple to be achieved in a battle round.
Thank you for taking the time to read this feedback.

Best Regards,

[CCE1981]

So has anyone else seen Black Death on a Thunderhammer?  That is Devastating Wounds against Monsters/Vehicles on a 4+, use on a standard Captain and you can get normal 5 attacks, and up to 8 with Finest Hour.

[Valerian]

57 minutes ago, Wolf Guard Dan said:

The omission of Rune Priests and Wolf Priests. I understand it is by design. But They do function differently to Librarians and Chaplains. For example Wolf Priests also function as the Chapter's apothecary equivalent.

Please revisit the saga mechanism. Sagas are difficult to achieve. Maybe by turn 3 you might have earned one of these sagas. Most other chapter detachments give them benefits from the start. Improve them by allowing multiple to be achieved in a battle round.

 

Dan, agree with your point about Wolf Priests, of course, as they always had an ability to heal (usually called Healing Balms), and in 30+ year old lore are well established to serve as a combined Chaplain and Apothecary.  Disagree with Rune Priests, however; they've always been Librarians by another name, and other than a different Psychic Power list, have always mirrored the Librarians of standard Chapters (sometimes with different wargear choices, but they were functionally the same).  I'm not sure what you'd want them to do here regarding Rune Priests.

 

For the Saga mechanism, it might also be worth recommending that some default ability be active at the start of the battle, so that a Claws of Russ detachment doesn't have to always wait to maybe get something later.  Then as Deeds are accomplished and Sagas are triggered they activate and add to the default ability.  Off of the top of my head, I don't have a great idea of what would make a balanced default ability that would be appropriate right now.

 

 

[Valerian]

Also, I would definitely recommend that the people that write in to GW ask them about the Attacks weirdness going on with our Space Wolves units compared to equivalent Space Marine units:

 

• Grey Hunters get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Tactical Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.
• Blood Claws get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Assault Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.
• Blood Claws get 2 Attacks with a Power Fist, while Assault Marines get 3 Attacks with the same weapon.
• Blood Claws get 3 Attacks with a Power Weapon, while Assault Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.
•    Exact same issue with Skyclaws for these last three weapons when compared to Assault Marines with Jump Packs.
• Long Fangs get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Devastator Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon. 
• Long Fangs get 2 Attacks with a Power Weapon, while Devastator Marines get 3 Attacks with the same weapon. 

 

These were the ones that I noticed so far.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Those would be good additions to the next version of the template.

 

Regarding Rune Priests I mostly included that because others had mentioned it. Also other units across different indexes had differing rules Ie. Helbrutes

[Wulf Vengis]

Regarding Rune Priests: Though essentially just Libby by another name I would argue their unique Wargear Options and psychic powers warrant a unique entry. If only for the Chooser of the Slain and standard runic armour. Maybe also because their runic weapons function slightly differently to the force weapons of other chapters.

Not to mention the 30+ years of prior existence rules and lore.

 

Man i wish GW would stop taking my toys away. Pretty :cuss:ty move for a game and toy company.

[ChronoCub]

19 hours ago, Triszin said:

Desolation squads fill a gap wolves had.

Indirect

Anti tank

Dont forget that the grav weapons are anti-tank 2+. And they appear to be in multiple squad options

[Marshall Bretton]

I've seen a few people mention black templars sword brethren when comparing to TWC and other units saying they retained all their weapon options.

 

This isn't the case, yes they still have thunder hammers but they lost all their other weapon options, they were rolled into a generic "power weapon" profile. They even lost the option for twin lightning claws which is mental as I imagine most people who have the kit will have built that model.

 

If people are going to be making these arguments I think it's important to be accurate with what you are saying

[Wraithwing]

I've shot an email off this morning. Based it on Dan's template. 

 

This is what I have sent:

 

Hi There, 

 

Thank you for your efforts in the creation of the new edition of Warhammer 40,000. I appreciate your hard work in redesigning the game we all love. 

 

However, there were some errors in the index for Space Wolves that I wanted to make you aware of. There were also some areas I was unhappy with as a customer and many share my views on social media, including many members of the Space Wolves Facebook group (12.3K members, of which I am an admin) and the Bolter and Chainsword forum. 

 

The errors are as follows:

 

 

• Wolf Scouts are only one wound when Codex Space Marine Scouts are two. These seems to be an error. 

• Wolf Guard Terminators who take an assault cannon/heavy flamer/ storm bolter & cyclone missile launcher also lose their melee weapon. Thus they would not have melee attacks. This seems like an error. 

• Long Fangs do not have the Adeptus Astartes Faction Keyword. This seems to be an error. 

 

There were some design decisions that I was sadly, very unhappy with as a long-time customer:

Wulfen, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wolf Guard have generic (heirloom) weapons. This is inconsistent with other factions' bespoke units still having access to distinct melee weapons. For example, Black Templars and Blood Angel exclusive units such as Sword Brethren and Death Company Marines have access to distinct melee weapon profiles - including standard Thunder Hammer profiles - while the Space Wolves exclusive units like Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry do not. As a gamer I don't understand why this is different?

The omission of Rune Priests and Wolf Priests. I understand that this may be by design. But they do function differently to Librarians and Chaplains. For example, Wolf Priests also function as the Chapter's apothecary equivalent. Could they not have rules to reflect this on their datasheets? Additionally, Rune Priest (Space Wolves Librarians) have always had Space Wolves specific Psychic powers. These have now been removed from the army. 

Please revisit the saga mechanism. Sagas are difficult to achieve. Maybe by turn 3 you might have earned one of these sagas. Most other chapter detachments give them benefits from the start. Space Wolves armies essentially start the battle at a disadvantage compared to other Space Marines chapters. They could be improved by allowing multiple to be achieved in a battle round.

[Starlight_Wolf]

One thing that's bugging me is the 2 x Lightning claws being the sole option for that wargear now, was a single claw + pistol/shield that big an issue or just a wider symptom of 'simplified not simple'?

[ChronoCub]

13 hours ago, Wolf Guard Dan said:

Please revisit the saga mechanism. Very difficult to achieve. Maybe by turn 3 you might have earned one of these sagas. Improve them by allowing multiple to be achieved a battle round.

Our ability to unlock one of our sagas relies entirely on our opponent army building choices (vehcles / monsters).

Our detachment bonus should not be dictated by our opponents army list.

 

Also.. shouldn't the wolf guard battle leaders have lieutenant keyword ?

Edited June 14, 2023 by ChronoCub

[Runefyre]

8 hours ago, Valerian said:

 

Dan, agree with your point about Wolf Priests, of course, as they always had an ability to heal (usually called Healing Balms), and in 30+ year old lore are well established to serve as a combined Chaplain and Apothecary.  Disagree with Rune Priests, however; they've always been Librarians by another name, and other than a different Psychic Power list, have always mirrored the Librarians of standard Chapters (sometimes with different wargear choices, but they were functionally the same).  I'm not sure what you'd want them to do here regarding Rune Priests.

 

For the Saga mechanism, it might also be worth recommending that some default ability be active at the start of the battle, so that a Claws of Russ detachment doesn't have to always wait to maybe get something later.  Then as Deeds are accomplished and Sagas are triggered they activate and add to the default ability.  Off of the top of my head, I don't have a great idea of what would make a balanced default ability that would be appropriate right now.

 

 

To echo what Vengis said, I miss the old Chooser of the Slain, Runic Armor, and Runic Weapons. I especially miss Runic Weapons back when they granted an additional +1 to deny the Witch, it made Rune Priests feel truly Space Wolf. 

 

Tangential from the generic Rune Priest discussion, I'm annoyed Njal doesn't have the Psychic Hood ability, despite literally being modelled with one....

[Kallas]

30 minutes ago, Runefyre said:

Tangential from the generic Rune Priest discussion, I'm annoyed Njal doesn't have the Psychic Hood ability, despite literally being modelled with one....

I find Njal kind of disappointing in general.

 

-1 to be hit for his unit is ok, but a bit bland. I suppose it ties into the Stormcaller aspect, just doesn't 'feel punchy' to me.

-1 to be wounded for his unit is amazing! Oh wait, it's against Psychic attacks only...oh...

Living Lightning is...meh? 3+/7/-1/1 with d6/2d6 shots and Sustained Hits 2. Ok, so shoots a bit, but doesn't seem like it's going to do much to...well anything other than GEQs, which is not something Marines really care too much about.

Staff of the Stormcaller is better than a basic Force Weapon I suppose.

 

Maybe it's just me, but he doesn't feel like Njal the Stormcaller to me*

 

* Even though I'm not a true Wolf player, I still like SW lore.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Kallas
Missing words

[Runefyre]

Njal has certainly fallen far from his days of coating the whole battlefield in a snowstorm...

 

 

[Marshall Bretton]

Appreciate we already knew about it, but confirmation with the index that GK have had all of their weapons rolled into 1 profile including hammers.

 

Pretty massive nerf for them although the rest of their book is very nice so somewhat makes up for it

[Lionsbane]

The Difference being they were all rolled into one pretty decent melee weapon. STR 6, AP -2 D2. 

Also does it seem like melee lost more AP than shooting did in general. Or is that just confirmation bias on my part?

[Marshall Bretton]

1 minute ago, Lionsbane said:

The Difference being they were all rolled into one pretty decent melee weapon. STR 6, AP -2 D2. 

Also does it seem like melee lost more AP than shooting did in general. Or is that just confirmation bias on my part?

Agreed, but this realistically means our argument shouldn't be that we lost all our melee weapon options, it should be that the merge isn't on par with other factions who had the same treatment

[Starlight_Wolf]

24 minutes ago, Lionsbane said:

Also does it seem like melee lost more AP than shooting did in general. Or is that just confirmation bias on my part?

 

I think that may be down to there being more melee weapons that have been squashed into one profile than shooting (especially in the wolf index, though I am not ignoring the Grey knights having all weapon options squashed by the sounds of things), hence the possible perception that there is a slant to shooting not being hit as hard. 

 

That said that could be me trying to be a little more generous after seeing the index initially. But it would seem odd if GW were to completely gut melee in all areas and leave most shooting options in an (effectively) similar-ish state to what they were (not considering combi weapons in that, as while they have been treated similarly to melee weapon options they are a different case to bolt rifles and such, where the profiles were similar-ish to begin with)

Edited June 14, 2023 by Starlight_Wolf

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Excellent feedback everyone. Please make sure to email GW, especially with Valerian’s additions and feedback on Njal.  Please  keep it respectful. I know our faction attracts a personality that may be blunt in feedback (myself included) but we have to be charming to those milk-drinkers in Nottingham ;). Kill more flies with sugar than vinegar. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Wolf Guard Dan

[Valerian]

4 hours ago, Kallas said:

 

 

Maybe it's just me, but he doesn't feel like Njal the Stormcaller to me*

 

 

 

Definitely true, but as far as I can tell it's that way with most of the characters that used to be psychic powerhouses in the lore.  Take a look at the Grey Knights characters, for example.