Space Wolves Index

[Wispy]

8 hours ago, Gaius Maximus said:

I've seen a few people mention black templars sword brethren when comparing to TWC and other units saying they retained all their weapon options.

 

This isn't the case, yes they still have thunder hammers but they lost all their other weapon options, they were rolled into a generic "power weapon" profile. They even lost the option for twin lightning claws which is mental as I imagine most people who have the kit will have built that model.

 

If people are going to be making these arguments I think it's important to be accurate with what you are saying

I take your point about the lightning claws - that feels like a genuine oversight - but the 'power weapon' consolidation has been applied consistently across the board in all factions so far.

 

(my assumption is most of us don't mind that an axe/sword/mace/spear can be rolled into the single profile - that's how it was in 5th edition and that's how I always liked it. Drives me nuts that axes and swords became separate profiles for years and years)

 

The uneven application of these standards is the big reason why this is so confusing and frustrating. Consistency is so important in game design. As this is a competitive game It also creates the impression of unfair treatment.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Wispy

[TiguriusX]

I predict the most commonly used character will be the phobos librarian

 

The shrouding effect + infiltrators is the only way to keep your backfield alive and well with all the crazy new rules

[Apokalypsi]

Going off of the already great template, I added a bit more I thought needed mentioned.

 

Greetings,

Thank you for your efforts in the creation of the new edition. I appreciate your hard work in redesigning the game we all love, Warhammer 40k.  There were also some areas I am unhappy with as a customer and many share my views on social media, including many members of the Space Wolves Facebook group (12.3K members) and the Bolter and Chainsword forum.

The errors are as follows:

Wolf Scouts are only one wound when Codex Space Marine Scouts are two.

Wolf Guard Terminators who take an assault cannon/heavy flamer/storm bolter & cyclone missile launcher also lose their melee weapon. Thus they would not have melee attacks.

Long Fangs do not have the Adeptus Astartes Faction Keyword.

Wulfen Hammers seem to be a typo with S5 AP-1 D1. It was expected they would be more inline with Thunder Hammer profiles, S10 (because of the extra strength of Wulfen in past editions) AP-2 D2.

Another error seen across the board is the number of attacks compared to standard Space Marine units.

 

• Grey Hunters get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Tactical Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.
• Blood Claws get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Assault Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.
• Blood Claws get 2 Attacks with a Power Fist, while Assault Marines get 3 Attacks with the same weapon.
• Blood Claws get 3 Attacks with a Power Weapon, while Assault Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.
•    Exact same issue with Skyclaws for these last three weapons when compared to Assault Marines with Jump Packs.
• Long Fangs get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Devastator Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon. 
• Long Fangs get 2 Attacks with a Power Weapon, while Devastator Marines get 3 Attacks with the same weapon. 

 

There were some design decisions that I was sadly, very unhappy with as a long-time customer:

Wulfen, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wolf Guard have generic (heirloom) weapons. This is inconsistent with other factions' bespoke units still having access to distinct melee weapons. For example, Black Templars and Blood Angel exclusive units such as Sword Brethren and Death Company Marines have access to distinct melee weapon profiles - including standard thunder hammer profiles - while the Space Wolves exclusive units like Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry do not. As a gamer I don't understand why this is different. If the intent was to mirror Grey Knights nemesis weapons, I can understand that but the profile is somewhat lacking. These (and Vanguard Vets) heirloom weapons, seem like glorified chainswords when they should be at least Power Weapon profiles.

Wolf Guard with Jump Packs. I understand that we can use Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs, but then the unit still suffers from the generic weapon problem mentioned earlier. For example, Death Company still has a foot option AND a jump pack option.

The omission of Rune Priests and Wolf Priests. I understand it is by design. But they do function differently to Librarians and Chaplains. For example, Wolf Priests also function as the Chapter's apothecary equivalent. With Space Wolves not being able to use apothecaries, we have no access to characters that heal infantry like every other chapter does.

Please revisit the saga mechanism. Sagas are difficult to achieve. Maybe by turn 3 you might have earned one of these sagas. Most other chapter detachments give them benefits from the start. Improve them by allowing multiple to be achieved in a battle round. Nearly all Space Wolves players are talking about only ever taking the Gladius Task Force detachment while never considering our distinct one because it is so difficult to benefit from.

Thank you for taking the time to read this feedback.

Best Regards,

[Valerian]

And, the following is my version:

 

Greetings,

 

I just want to say up front that I appreciate the hard work all of you have been doing to transition to a new edition of the game.  I think everyone understands what a Herculean task that is, especially considering the requirement to redo over 2,000 distinct datasheets for every unit in the game.

 

With that said, it is understandable that a few errors may have slipped through.  I’m writing to you to highlight a few that I, and others, have noticed when reviewing the Space Wolves Index.  Admittedly, some of these points might not be errors, and were intentional choices made by the design team.  If that is the case, then I’d just like to respectfully request that someone take another look at these choices.

 

The points that I’m reasonably sure were unintentional include the following:

 

• Wolf Scouts are only one wound.  As far as I can tell, there are no other single-wound Space Marines in the game; not even the neophyte Scouts of other Chapters have just one wound, and Wolf Scouts are fully experienced Marines.

• Wolf Guard Terminators who take an assault cannon/heavy flamer/storm bolter & cyclone missile launcher also lose their melee weapon, which means they cannot fight at all in melee combat.

• Long Fangs do not have the <Adeptus Astartes> faction keyword.

 

• Wulfen Hammers seem to be a typo with S5 AP-1 D1. It was expected they would be more inline with Thunder Hammer profiles, S10 (because of the extra strength of Wulfen in past editions) AP-2 D2.

• Another error seen across the board is the number of attacks compared to standard Space Marine units.

 

The following points may or may not have been intentional.  If they were, many Space Wolves players do not understand the reasoning behind these choices:

 

• Wulfen Hammers are S5 AP-1 D1, which is the exact same profile as the new ‘Wulfen claws and melee weapons’ but with two less Attacks.  It seems odd that these would share the same profile as their other option.  Is it intended that Wulfen in this edition have no access to higher Strength (or Damage) attacks?

• Grey Hunters get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Tactical Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.

• Blood Claws get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Assault Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.

• Blood Claws get 2 Attacks with a Power Fist, while Assault Marines get 3 Attacks with the same weapon.

• Blood Claws get 3 Attacks with a Power Weapon, while Assault Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon.

  • Exact same issue with Skyclaws for these last three weapons when compared to Assault Marines with Jump Packs.

• Long Fangs get 3 Attacks with an Astartes Chainsword, while Devastator Marines get 4 Attacks with the same weapon. 

• Long Fangs get 2 Attacks with a Power Weapon, while Devastator Marines get 3 Attacks with the same weapon. 

 

Why is it that the Space Wolves bespoke units are getting less melee attacks than their generic Space Marine counterparts?

 

In addition to the points above, there were several clearly intentional design decisions that are frustrating to your Space Wolves players and collectors:

 

• Wulfen, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wolf Guard have generic (heirloom) weapons. While I think I understand the intent here, to streamline these units that have had an abundance of melee weapon options in the past, this design choice has been implemented inconsistently across the different Space Marine factions. 

  • For example, compare these to the Blood Angel’s exclusive unit ‘Death Company Marines.’  Any number of models in that unit can trade their default equipment for a power weapon, power fist, or thunder hammer.  The same goes for ‘Death Company Marines with Jump Packs.’

  • Compare also to another Blood Angel’s unit, the ‘Sanguinary Guard.’  Each model in that unit also comes with a generic weapon, the Encarmine blade, but that weapon is significantly better than the Heirloom weapons or the Wulfen claws and melee weapons of the bespoke Space Wolves units.  Additionally, for every 5 models in the Sanguinary Guard, one model can replace their Encarmine blade with a power fist, while the Space Wolves’ units have no such option.

  • Compare these also to the bespoke Black Templars unit, the Primaris Sword Brethren, where any number of models can upgrade to a power weapon, and for every 5 models in the unit one model can replace their default gear with a thunder hammer (and the squad’s Sword Brother Castellan can take a master-crafted power weapon.

 

Why do Wolf Guard, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wulfen all get Heirloom weapons, which are +1 strength Astartes chainswords, while these other units maintain their ability to pick and choose from power weapons, power fists, and thunder hammers?

 

• Wolf Guard with Jump Packs. I understand that we can use Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs, but then the unit still suffers from the generic weapon problem mentioned earlier. For example, Death Company still has a foot option AND a jump pack option.

• The omission of Wolf Priests. I understand it is by design, and the intent is for Space Wolves players to use the Chaplain entries from the Space Marines Index. However, Wolf Priests also function as the Chapter's Apothecary equivalent; this is why Space Wolves armies using their Champions of Russ detachment cannot take Apothecaries. However, without also providing a bespoke Wolf Priests datasheet entry, Space Wolves become the only Space Marine faction in the game with no healing character/unit.

• The Champions of Russ detachment rules.  Please consider revisiting the Deeds Worthy of a Saga mechanics.  Although the idea fits perfectly with the lore and background of the Space Wolves, this system puts Space Wolves players at a clear disadvantage to every other faction in the game that gets a detachment rule advantage right from the start, without having to earn it by accomplishing some task.  Not only will it typically take a turn or two to activate any benefit at all, when you finally do start completing the required deeds, only one Saga can be activated per turn.  In theory, Space Wolves could eventually get four decent benefits going at the same time, but this outcome is highly unlikely, and in reality Space Wolves players are currently much better off ignoring their exclusive detachment and playing with the generic Space Marines Gladius Task Force detachment, which provides significant advantages right from turn 1.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider this feedback.

 

Best Regards,

 

[Wispy]

I posted a similar request for emails in the Space Wolves facebook group before taking my daughter to swim lessons. Came back and there was something like 50 replies and hojillion reactions.

 

Space Wolves players and collectors are rattled fiercely by this. The perception of unfair treatment caused by inconsistency is real.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Wispy

[Apokalypsi]

GW will hear a collective AWOO.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Thanks for posting to Facebook Wispy. And thanks everyone for emailing.

 

We aren’t taking this laying down.

[Lionsbane]

Alright. So Points are out. Blood Claws, and Sky Claws do in fact cost less than their counterparts. Blood Claws are 14pts each, Assault Marines are 19pts each.

Sky claws 19points, AMwJP are 23pts. So Solid savings for being worse models.

Grey Hunters 18, TM are 17.5. I think this is also fine. Only the SGT in Tacticals get chainswords. All of the GH do. So they are marginally better.

Wulfen are 20 points each. Pretty Garbage if you ask me.

TWC are 33 1/3 each (100 for 3). I'm still on the fence about them. 

Pretty much no options cost points. Even Termi Thunderhammers etc. 

WGPL are all ridiculously overcosted at 30 for WGPL, 40  for WGPL with JP and 45 for WGPL in TDA. Note the last is especially ridiculous as Deathwing Knights are 47 and absolute beasts. 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Lionsbane said:

Wulfen are 20 points each. Pretty Garbage if you ask me.

 

100 points for a squad of 5 with 4 Storm Shields could see some play coming in from Tactical reserves. 

[Valerian]

30 points WGPL probably isn’t too bad, considering you can max them out on wargear options at no additional cost. 

[Kallas]

Well, you'll have to for them to be worth 30pts!

[Karhedron]

Mine are modelled with power fist and combi weapons anyway.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Stormwolf is cheaper than land raiders. Definitely going to look into running these early on I think. 1 with blood claws with character, 1 with Judiciar/ BGV and maybe an intcessor or assault Intercessor Squad with LT for downfield objective grabs. Currently adding this up to see what I've got left but I think I should have 800 at least. 

 

Sad th Vindicator is do pricy. I thought mine might come off tge shelf, but not at those points.

[Lionsbane]

Judiciar Heroically Intervening into combat is the best way to get into combat. 

[Wispy]

just noticed that bladeguard weapons are now 'master crafted power weapons' now, which is joyous for kitbashing! folks who want to represent them with space wolves axes can go wild (if they hadn't already)

 

(swords and axes having different rules after 5th edition drove me NUTS - all of a sudden models that ) 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Wispy

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Rune Priest Jbickb said:

Sad th Vindicator is do pricy. I thought mine might come off tge shelf, but not at those points.

 

It is pricey but that is a big gun! It might be worth the points. It is pretty tough too, krak missiles will need 5s to wound it.

[Valerian]

Now that we've seen the points, does that change any of the feedback that we wanted to give to GW?

 

For example, is it worth complaining about Blood Claws attacks, when they're 5 points per model cheaper than Assault Marines?  

[Wolf Guard Dan]

5 minutes ago, Valerian said:

Now that we've seen the points, does that change any of the feedback that we wanted to give to GW?

 

For example, is it worth complaining about Blood Claws attacks, when they're 5 points per model cheaper than Assault Marines?  

Short answer, yes. I’ll explain :). A lot of my complaints come down to design of the our bespoke units. I don’t think our bespoke units should be inferior to their counterparts. They can however be different. I’m glad they’re cheaper but they should fit in the same echelon as assault marines imo. Wulfen are a glaring example. They changed their design to be more but wimpier attacks when their role has been hard hitting. They should be in the same echelon as BGV, Aberrants, Sang Guard (their points are too high). Wulfen shouldn’t be 20ppm, they should be 30-35 and act like it.

[Lionsbane]

Sang Guard points are too high? You don't think they are worth less than twice what a standard assault squad with jp is worth? Because I think they are worth about three times as much. 2+Save, -1 to be hit, -1 to be wounded, 4x as good weapons. Double the OC. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

On 6/16/2023 at 3:27 PM, Wispy said:

just noticed that bladeguard weapons are now 'master crafted power weapons' now, which is joyous for kitbashing! folks who want to represent them with space wolves axes can go wild (if they hadn't already)

 

(swords and axes having different rules after 5th edition drove me NUTS - all of a sudden models that ) 

 

I always had mixed feeling about it. I liked the different profiles but I hated it when they started limiting it to bits the kits came with. I like my wolves with Axes (I used the Grey Slayer upgrade kits to make my bladeguard).

 

On 6/16/2023 at 5:41 PM, Valerian said:

Now that we've seen the points, does that change any of the feedback that we wanted to give to GW?

 

For example, is it worth complaining about Blood Claws attacks, when they're 5 points per model cheaper than Assault Marines?  

 

I mainly run primaris stuff, but honesty it bugged me that they gave them less attacks even if they are cheaper. I understood why people called wolves marines +1 in 5th, and I think making marines feel worse even with different points just isn't smart. If it doesn't bother other posters though I'll probably just stick to complaining about our detachment rules, and the fact that that I pretty much have to use my wolf guard battle leader as a proxy. There really should be a data sheet for him, you pretty much had to buy an expensive box set to get him. I would mind if they made Haldor Icepelt a SC but he is a pretty glaring omission for me at the moment.  

Edited June 18, 2023 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Lionsbane]

I do wish BC,SC, and GH had 1 more attack. Its a feels bad thing rather than a not worth their points thing though. 14ppm BC are going to win games, and that is the long and the short of it.  They have 2OC and Assault Marines have 1OC. Its a pile of OC for low points, that still fights decently. Again I am not sure why GW decided SW should be the hoard SM faction, but they did. I'd prefer to have more expensive BC, GH and TWC for more more effective combat rules. Especially TWC. They have been my favorite since 5th when they were introduced. In general I hate the flanderization of SW, but I love the TWC anyway. 

If we keep encouraging people to contact GW FAQ email with our concerns maybe we can get some of this changed. I do not expect a fast change except maybe a band-aid to make the detachment less oppressive. 

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I think thunder cav are ok now that we know they came down in points. 200 points for 6, T6, 4W, 4++ bodies with pretty decent offensive output is really nothing to sneeze at, and characters are likely a worthy addition as they can really add some punch.

 

The reduced attack must be on purpose due to tge pricing of our units but I agree I would prefer it fluff wise if we got the same stats as counterpart units. 

[Dark Shepherd]

On 6/16/2023 at 6:34 PM, Rune Priest Jbickb said:

Stormwolf is cheaper than land raiders. Definitely going to look into running these early on I think. 1 with blood claws with character, 1 with Judiciar/ BGV and maybe an intcessor or assault Intercessor Squad with LT for downfield objective grabs. Currently adding this up to see what I've got left but I think I should have 800 at least. 

 

Sad th Vindicator is do pricy. I thought mine might come off tge shelf, but not at those points.

As someone who wons both am going with the Land raiders, much tougher, can pop smoke

 

Stormwolf's have to start in hover mode to deploy troops who can charge before turn 3 so theyre pretty vulnerable and their wea[pons got weaker; twin lascannon instead of 2 lascannons was unfair

[Filius]

Oh … I just realized … do I read the Index Cards correctly, when I think, that Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Sky Claws can take 2 special weapons, even in a 5 man squad?

[Valerian]

3 minutes ago, Filius said:

Oh … I just realized … do I read the Index Cards correctly, when I think, that Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Sky Claws can take 2 special weapons, even in a 5 man squad?

 

Minimum pack size for Blood Claws in the Index and the Field Manual is 10 models, but yes, you are correct.