Wh40k 10th Edition Munitorum Field Manual (Points)

[Not An Ork]

I kind of get some of the frustration being expressed here in the line of ‘but now there’s no reason not to play the max load out all the time’, as - on paper - that’s probably true.

 

But I don’t really agree that this will be the actual reality, and for people just trying to have a fun afternoon playing games of 40K, then the effect of their own skill set, luck, and use of the models they have will probably outweigh any miss of the maximum possible load-out.

 

Min/maxing in every game system has always been for the hardcore sub-set, and sure on a forum like this that sub-set is probably (and understandably) in the majority, so I get the pain being expressed. It’s an entire play style at that point, and it isn’t catered for in this edition.

 

But I’m not seeing anything that I don’t think will be fun for the majority of players, and I’m all for letting 40K be more accessible to more and more people. I’ve always had a more casual approach to every type of game I play, and while I like knowing the nuance and detail of how things interact, I’ve never really enjoyed going all the way down the rabbit hole to pure math-hammer levels. So I think that what I’ve seen so far feels fun and flexible, and I don’t think everything is going to be ruined by some strange points cost match ups - I don’t think suddenly every game will be the max load out, but do like that there will be some seriously punchy surprises here and there from ‘free wargear’.

 

My guess is that if it does get out of hand, then GW could just create and add a [big gun] keyword to all of the max load-out weapon options on their unit’s index cards, and then in the points section or the muster your force section of the rules state ‘add 10 points for each [big gun] in your army’. Adds a little slider of complexity to the overall simplification of the points system. But is then a slippery slope away from the simplification, which I’m otherwise broadly okay with.

 

But I’m only a filthy casual so take my views accordingly. :)

Edited June 17, 2023 by Not An Ork

[Interrogator Stobz]

Those are fair points Brother, except with miniatures once the weapons are glues on there will be an element of WYSISYG expectation. 

I like magnets, but a visit to the Forge shows many don't bother.

So even many armies that usually get played casual may be optimised for occasional tournament play.

[Lord_Ikka]

There are definitely some bad parts to the "Power Leveling" of points that GW decided to do. I don't particularly like the fact that some of the granularity has been taken away and getting a full-points list is now less about choosing and balancing upgrades than it is about taking or dropping whole units. I've made about seven lists tonight for four different armies and three have weird point gaps that I'm not able to fill in at all because there aren't any options for for 10-20 points aside from Enhancements that I've already taken. It is a little frustrating, but even worse is the idea that, for example, a bare-bones Devastator squad with 5 bolters is the exact same points as a full kitted-out squad with 4 gravcannons and a combi-weapon makes zero sense. I understand that no one with any sort of experience with the game or game theory in general would equip Devs like that, but the point remains the same that there is no official recognition that there is a massive difference between the two squads.

 

On the other hand, I do understand the point GW is making about the ease of list-making, because it was very, very easy to make those seven lists. Which fits in very well with their plan to have a list builder that requires as little as possible effort put into it (due to their utter lack of success with the 8th/9th ed one they need to have something that works), and it makes building lists easy for anyone new to the game. You don't have to worry about what your stuff is armed with in terms of points, you just need to know what it is armed with when it is on the table. 

 

As far as the points themselves go, I run four armies- Imperial Knights, Primaris Marines, Necrons, and Inquisition Stormtroopers (aka- Astra Militarum Scions w/attached Inquisition weirdos). My Knights got some great points, making them probably my best choice for any upcoming tournaments, as I'm now able to run 3 Questoris/5 Armigers or 2 Questoris/8 Armigers fairly easy. Primaris are decent, as everyone has seen- a lot more bodies/characters on the board compared to 9th, but we'll see how good they are. Necrons have stayed fairly similar to end of 9th as far as points go, but due to the rules will be shifting from a melee-skewing army to a shooting one (Skorpekh are not nearly the anti-everything threat that they were previously). My stormtroopers are just for fun, but their points haven't made them any better or worse than 9th, so I'll take that as a win. In points, my armies have either stayed the same or gotten better, so as an isolated player I can appreciate the benefits I'm getting, but overall I'm pretty worried about how exactly the points system in general will effect game balance and game play.

[Captain Idaho]

Also, it's not min-maxing when you can have 2 Hunter Killer missiles on your Ironclad or none for the same points. It's common sense you'll add the best you can.

 

Most people do it, even casually. It's why points were popular, granularity was popular and Power Level rejected since 8th.

[Hoffa]

So, anyone else thinking about canceling their Leviathan pre order?

[Captain Idaho]

12 minutes ago, Hoffa said:

So, anyone else thinking about canceling their Leviathan pre order?

 

I've cancelled my plans for 2 Vindicators, 2 Assault Marines boxed sets and 2 Boxed sets of Space Marine Bikers.

[Dark Legionnare]

14 minutes ago, Hoffa said:

So, anyone else thinking about canceling their Leviathan pre order?

Two in my group already did.

 

I haven't bought direct from GW in years, (since, like, 2009 I think? Grey knights) and have never pre-ordered a single thing from them.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Redcomet]

16 minutes ago, Hoffa said:

So, anyone else thinking about canceling their Leviathan pre order?

No.

 

I will have fun painting a lot of these models even though I won’t game. I have player a game of 40k in 10 years now, but still have fun painting and collecting 

[Nephaston]

It also doesn't feel great to start out the game as a new or returning player, thinking it's all hunky dory, getting really excited about games only to realize that some units are mathematically just inferior both in points and in stats,

 

Take for example 5-man Desolators vs 10-man Skitarii Ranger, both equal-ish in points cost, strip them of their guns, army rules, and detachment rules and they should, on average kill each other in simultaneous melee. But they don't, Rangers lose almost always, badly. add their guns (which are both equally free) and rangers lose harder, add their army rules (which are equally free) and rangers lose harderer, add their detachment rules, and rangers still lose, Hell, change the Desolators for 5 Intercessors, a fellow battleline unit and the rangers lose point for point.

 

We see it time and again in online gaming; all the new players in the world won't keep playing when the underlying system of the game is marred by flawed designwork. 40k is lucky in that regard that it is more than the game, it's a hobby so it can't ever fail like say a VtM: Bloodlines, or Overwatch 2 (off-topic but could you imagine GW cancelling campaigns because they can't make 'em work?)

 

All they need to do is just apply some maths. Maths is truth, always,

[Arkhanist]

24 minutes ago, Hoffa said:

So, anyone else thinking about canceling their Leviathan pre order?

 

If I'd pre-ordered from GW, I'd be very, very tempted. I pre-ordered via register of interest at my usual discount-internet-game-store (DIGS?) so if I cancel now, that will hurt me for future registers, and I'm not sure I even can now I've paid the invoice.

 

I do still want to paint the models (truescale terminators! Screamer Killer!!) which is the main draw for me, and for the amount of models £120 was a goddamn steal (for GW pricing, obvs). The rest of the paper stuff inside though? May go ebay, if I can be bothered. I'm waiting to see what happens when the combat patrol pre-fixed boxes stuff looks like on the 20th, as that's something I may be able to play with my kids, plus the 2 sets that come in Leviathan (they're too young yet for the full grimdark). Every other purchase I had planned is cancelled, likely going to be paint-only-what-i-got for a while.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Arkhanist

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Not An Ork said:

But I don’t really agree that this will be the actual reality, and for people just trying to have a fun afternoon playing games of 40K, then the effect of their own skill set, luck, and use of the models they have will probably outweigh any miss of the maximum possible load-out.

I always come back to this: it was always possible for casual players to play with whatever loadout they wanted. There is absolutely no need to enforce that in the rules - the purpose of points was to ensure that the "best" options were relatively balanced against the weaker options; the Plasma Pistol vs Bolt Pistol is a prime example of it, if there are no costs then if a Plasma Pistol is available then it is simply 100% better than a Bolt Pistol every single time.

 

The point of...points is to create that cost/benefit analysis to ensure that different options are viable by making some more expensive than others. Of course, GW's track record is spotty on this at best, but that's still the purpose of it even if they fail. 10e is just them giving up and shoving a worse system in peoples' faces.

 

Hell, 8e was good for it: Power Level is not a bad idea for casual players who aren't interested in min-maxing, and points alongside is good for those who want at least a semblance of balance; removing PL and then turning points into PL is the worst of both worlds.

[Lord_Ikka]

7 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

(off-topic but could you imagine GW cancelling campaigns because they can't make 'em work?)

They pretty much did that in 3rd edition when the Eye of Terror (13th Black Crusade) world-wide event had Chaos win pretty convincingly, but was retconned in the fluff later.

 

30 minutes ago, Hoffa said:

So, anyone else thinking about canceling their Leviathan pre order?

No, but I'm ordering through a FLGS and not GW. Anyway, the models look great and no matter the issues with the game I'll have fun making them. My buddy and I will also play no matter what, though if it gets too wonky we can always switch to Battletech Alpha Strike so we don't burn out.

[Captain Idaho]

It's customer retention that this'll hurt if anything. I doubt many will cancel their Leviathan box but the question is how many will continue to play in the months and a year's time, or buy more stuff.

 

I'm not optimistic since getting people off 40k is like telling my oldest son not to look at his mobile for a day.

 

I'm worried people will reward GW's decisions and poor releases and continue to buy even if they're unhappy. Still, if folk want to buy but are unhappy and want to register their protest, they should go 2nd hand and that at least removes GW's profit somewhat.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Valkyrion]

1 hour ago, Hoffa said:

So, anyone else thinking about canceling their Leviathan pre order?

 

Had I ordered a second set from GW direct then I'd cancel that, but I only ordered the one from an independent. Cancelling from GW is a token gesture of protest, but cancelling from a normal shop doesn't mean anything to anyone - the shop would still sell the copy I ordered that they have already purchased from GW, so it's completely empty.

[Isual]

14 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

 

Had I ordered a second set from GW direct then I'd cancel that, but I only ordered the one from an independent. Cancelling from GW is a token gesture of protest, but cancelling from a normal shop doesn't mean anything to anyone - the shop would still sell the copy I ordered that they have already purchased from GW, so it's completely empty.

I have no doubt that GW is finding a buyer for canceled preorders too. 

[Captain Idaho]

What's the correct contact to register my displeasure with GW directly, out of interest?

 

Was thinking of sending an email whilst bored at work...

[danodan123]

There are some very knee jerk reactions in this thread, possibly give it a go first ?

[Zoatibix]

12 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

What's the correct contact to register my displeasure with GW directly, out of interest?

 

Was thinking of sending an email whilst bored at work...

If you’re in the UK

 

 

uk.custserv@gwplc.com

 

 

Regarding order cancellation.

 

No for two reasons.

 

Firstly, I love the Tyranid models and will enjoy painting them.

 

Secondly, Insigned up to a register of interest for a third party store, and I feel it would be poor form to cancel on them, even though they could find a buyer instantly.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Zoatibix

[Arkhanist]

4 minutes ago, danodan123 said:

There are some very knee jerk reactions in this thread, possibly give it a go first ?

 

With what? I'm struggling to build a BA army list with what I have to fit in the very non granular points list. What I do have is going to require ripping apart models to even be legal in some cases, some of its gone to legends, and others are now substantially overpriced because they're pointed as if they have much better kit than they've got, or they got the nerfbat.

 

My death guard have all that and are trash tier rules to boot.

 

We have the rules. The datasheets. The points. A codex for either is a minimum of a year away. The whole premise of list building is now PL for everyone. If I wanted PL I would have been using it for the last 2 editions. I don't because my armies are not built for that.

 

The game might be amazeballs (with the amount of rerolls, critical hits and mortal wounds sprinkled around like candy I have my doubts) but right now I've barely got enough to put together a 1k list that doesn't immediately and obviously suck. I'm not going to go set my models on fire or anything, I'll see what happens, but my interest in playing now we have the full enchilada has dropped to near 0. And the widespread disappointmemt I'm seeing means I don't think I've gone crazy in thinking that.

 

[crimsondave]

16 minutes ago, danodan123 said:

There are some very knee jerk reactions in this thread, possibly give it a go first ?

I don’t have to taste a turd to know I don’t want to eat it.

[Halandaar]

3 hours ago, Arkhanist said:

But because I don't believe GW intend to swing back towards more flexibility and more choice.

 

Maybe, but imo it goes in cycles. It feels to me like a lot of the things they sold us as new features in 6th-8th editions were actually just the reintroduction of things from 2nd which were removed by the "streamlining" of 3rd. 

 

 

[Khornestar]

I like it. Played my first game of 10th last night to start learning, and it was great. I like both free upgrades and fixed unit sizes fine. *shrug*
 

They need to tweak points, but what else is new?

 

My FLGS was packed, every table full, and everyone was excited to try out the new edition. Doesn’t mean they’re all gonna love all the changes, but there was minimal griping. All experienced players, some more competitive and some not so much (like me).

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Khornestar

[01RTB01]

I wonder if they've done points like this for ease of their own army app creation? It'll cut the data entry down by a vast amount.

 

I'll give tenth a go but far more looking forward to more AoS/ mesbg/ sw legion and armada.

 

[Captain Idaho]

4 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

I like it. Played my first game of 10th last night to start learning, and it was great. I like both free upgrades and fixed unit sizes fine. *shrug*
 

They need to tweak points, but what else is new?

 

To be fair, there are armies it doesn't seem to negatively affect as much as others.

 

Just by chance, I was taking maxed Necron Warriors, Skorpekh and Flayed Ones squads anyway and they never had loads of special weapons etc.

 

But soon as there's any sort of unit customisation available, or if you want to take 2 units of 15 Necron Warriors instead 20 so you can fit a cool new character in, that's when the problem occurs. 

 

Doesn't mean you're wrong, just that different folk are looking for different things in the game. And really the game should be able to accommodate both sides of this particular fence.

[Khornestar]

Not really something to be right or wrong about, ultimately. I just kinda accept what it is and have fun with it. My enjoyment doesn’t depend on being consistent with how things were in the past, I like adapting and trying different things within a new system.

 

Doesn't mean I don’t understand why other people are unhappy with it, but for me being adaptable is key.