Wh40k 10th Edition Munitorum Field Manual (Points)

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

9 minutes ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

Well, maybe I should overcome my visceral hatred for challenges mechanic and give the Heresy a closer look.

 So you still plan on giving GW money then

[Dark Legionnare]

There are really, really good community-made Xenos army lists for HH.  In particular, the Orks one I know of and use is an absolute balanced, fun, elaborate and customizable slam-dunk.  The orks one has been ported to 2.0 pretty well too.  You can message me directly if you want further clarification, since this isn't much the place for chatting about it.

Powerfist suicide-duels are a lamer aspect of HH, haha, I agree. But it's a small nitpick against the 1.0 system's great breadth of play, fun, etc...

Edited June 16, 2023 by Tyriks
removed hidden quote

[Captain Idaho]

I just thought of something... this is the same design philosophy as the AoS "no points" nonsense. GW's notes mentioned upgrades had no impact on the game in 40K, which we know is rubbish. I hope GW takes a similar kicking here and has to do a massive U-turn, like "Here's some tournament points and variable squad sizes. Oh we meant to all along just like back in AoS days."

 

Internal balance is dead unless GW gets rid of all options. Why ever take a bolt pistol or Laspistol when you can just take a plasma or Grav pistols?

 

So I should model hunter killer missiles on everything or be missing out?

 

What about my bolter and Chainsword Sergeants? Why should they take a bolter when they should take a Storm Bolter with that chainsword?

 

Meanwhile, why take a power weapon when a power fist is better?

 

I have to add a Multi-melta to as many vehicles as can have them now or I miss out?

 

[The Spitehorde]

Problem with maxing everything out is that if (when?) they U turn you're left with a whole load of models to be butchered & repainted or shelved (speaking as a WYSIWYG player/modeller/painter). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chapter master 454]

Looking at it further...GW needs to do some of that listening they had been doing, take that and listen to what we were saying instead of projecting other things over it.

 

Too many stratagems, Too many relics, Too many books

Too many books with needed points in them.

(not too many points)

 

This does againt smack of their "we only playtest internally with beer and pretzels" and I am getting sick of it. I love this game...but their ability to make rules is just...they have the ability but just not the sense.

 

I mean...this is literally them trying to rip out the parts we have had for so long that HELPED balance things. We talked about this when PL was a thing...pretty sure when AoS dropped people commented how dumb it was that you had to "rule zero" every game you played...it doesn't remove complexity, it ADDS it because now we got to politic what is fair and what isn't.

 

Maybe...maybe with blind hope and foolishness that leads to despair...this is their form of "open beta" testing the game. They want to see what goes well and possibly keep points OUT of codices entirely and keep them external in this form to modulate them more freely without invalidating printings. Foolish hope...but what is left?

[Blurf]

This is gonna be a BAD start to the edition.

Everyone's on powerlevels.

At least Marines (Though potentially other factions, haven't looked as much into them) are heavily undercosted (Devastators are cheaper than retributors despite being like 2x the stats).

Deathguard, Admech, and Sisters of Battle (potentially also Votann) don't look like they'll have the tools to participate in the addition, let alone compete.

Wargear changes means the first 2 months are just going to be swapping loadouts.

Wargear changes also mean Lethality is going to be all over the place. 95pt Eradicators will one shot Land Raiders, but 260pts of Sacresants won't be able to kill a tactical squad in less than 3 turns.

 

[Arkhanist]

12 minutes ago, The Spitehorde said:

Problem with maxing everything out is that if (when?) they U turn you're left with a whole load of models to be butchered & repainted or shelved (speaking as a WYSIWYG player/modeller/painter).

 

 

Eh, I'm already stuck with that option already. e.g. my Death Company already had to be hacked apart when they removed the bolter+chainsword option and muggins here gave them bolt pistols. Now I'm paying points equivalent to them all being equipped with thunderhammer regardless, so I might as well rip em apart and upgrade em. Again. This time I'm 3d printing the weapons and using magnets (DC only come with 1 hammer per 5 in the box, buggered if I'm paying for more bitz). Repeat for sgt loadouts on most squads, my sanguinary guard powerfist squad is now illegal etc etc etc.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Arkhanist

[Kastor Krieg]

4 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

“Unit sizes are now much easier to manage. Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box, so you won’t need to agonise over how to include all of the models you’ve bought."

 

What a crock of...

I see the plague marines box is still 7 guys. So.....

Way easier for me to add 7 guys to a squad, one at a time, rather than need to buy multiple boxes to meet increments of 5.

Just buy 3 boxes of 7, you get 2 squads of 10 and a bonus free dude!

 

I can so imagine this screeched out in some genius marketing exec's voice.

[Nagashsnee]

10 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Just buy 3 boxes of 7, you get 2 squads of 10 and a bonus free dude!

 

I can so imagine this screeched out in some genius marketing exec's voice.

Brave  of you to assume the people behind 10th ed  can count.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Interrogator Stobz]

Lolz, five hours and seven pages of GeeDub what have you done?

I'm glad there is some consensus, makes it feel like a club.

 

This hilarious, many datasheets give the option of various squad numbers yet points contradict them.

 

Oh GeeDub, you have broken your game well this time.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Karhedron]

20 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

my sanguinary guard powerfist squad is now illegal etc etc etc.

 

Same here. Maybe the FIsts on my SG squads can be repurposed on my veteran sergeants or something.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

53 minutes ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

 So you still plan on giving GW money then

 

What can I say, I really do like the design of many of their models, especially vehicles. Of course the choice between getting another Sicaran or another 1/35 Panther is not easy, but it's never been a hobby for the weak-willed.

 

51 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

I feel like between this and the Legends'ing of HH tanks, GW is (not so) subtly pushing vets, and/or people with an IQ higher than their body temperature to move to HH, buying a whole new army in the process. Problem is, I don't really like the HH setting. No xenos takes a lot out of the richness of the setting, many of the units look really bland, all sporting the same armor mark for each squad, and the lore feels kind of hollow as we all know how it ends. It has a serious case of prequelitis for me. I actually always liked the "seconds to midnight" lore of old 40k as it let you fill in the possibilities yourself, the future wasn't written. That said, I love the Heresy vehicle designs.

 

Oh, and I hate the challenge mechanic as well. Does anyone like that mechanic? It would I guess be okay if it applies to HQ's only, but applying it to squad sergeants was always extremely dumb.

 

The lack of xenos definetly detracts from the variety, even more so with how low the support is for the non-Marine ranges like Imperial Army or Solar Auxilia, which really are in desperate need of more reasonably priced kits. However for me it's bigger problem in things like Titanicus or the upcoming Epic. HH was always meant to be more niche setting wise, but I just don't understand why they willingly cut off potential support for those two systems. But well, they didn't even bother to introduce Lucius pattern titans, so diversification is clearly not the top priority.

[Kastor Krieg]

3 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

This better be a "get us by until we get our actual codices". With some luck, people telling them how much this isn't good they will get this adjusted.

LOL, the Space Marine and Tyranid codices must have been already been printed, Most codices are developed or in "testing". 

They said they're already working on 11ed, that's the cycle.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

23 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

 

Eh, I'm already stuck with that option already. e.g. my Death Company already had to be hacked apart when they removed the bolter+chainsword option and muggins here gave them bolt pistols. Now I'm paying points equivalent to them all being equipped with thunderhammer regardless, so I might as well rip em apart and upgrade em. Again. This time I'm 3d printing the weapons and using magnets (DC only come with 1 hammer per 5 in the box, buggered if I'm paying for more bitz). Repeat for sgt loadouts on most squads, my sanguinary guard powerfist squad is now illegal etc etc etc.

I can already see the next step. GW is going to change how many thunder hammers a death company unit can take. Thus Arkhanist must pull the arms off once again. A perpetual cycle. Haha. Magnets are the way. 

[Bryan Blaire]

This has really taken the shine off the new models in the box for me.  I got it more for the models anyway, but if I’m not going to bother to play, why even have a box load of models - could just get a couple of cool ones to really push the painting on?  I’m not really into anything competitive, but I did like the army building aspect of the game previously, and nothing I see in these points/power levels is all that exciting to me, and I really did want to get more back into playing - now I’m not sure I’d want to.

 

Maybe it really is time to just accept I’m not GW’s target audience and move on.  This doesn’t seem that interesting army list-wise.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Kastor Krieg]

2 hours ago, TempestBlade said:

Just wish land raiders could transport 12 now so I could attach a leader to a squad of terminators…

Just get a superior Land Raider Crusader by playing the superior Chapter In Black ;)

[Interrogator Stobz]

47 minutes ago, The Spitehorde said:

Problem with maxing everything out is that if (when?) they U turn you're left with a whole load of models to be butchered & repainted or shelved (speaking as a WYSIWYG player/modeller/painter). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That happens nearly every Edition anyway. 

[Blurf]

We need a sweeping points rebalance by the end of August if 10th wants to stay on the radar. There are too many games that are too much fun to be wasting on a game that thinks 150pts for Repentia and 120pts for Desolators are both fair.

[Interrogator Stobz]

2 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Just get a superior Land Raider Crusader by playing the superior Chapter In Black ;)

Wait, do BT Raiders have different transport capability to the rest?

[ChargingSoll]

I think they are going for a more literal approach of only using what the kit comes with, even down to unit sizes now. Outlier like custodes is only like that because their characters come with the unit kit rather then stand alone.

 

If this unit pricing does stick around then they could actually add an army point total to the basket on their webstore

 

The webstore becoming the army builder. 

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Wait, do BT Raiders have different transport capability to the rest?

No, they don't. But they do look extra cool in their original colours 

I still have my old BT Crusader from my youth that needs to be rescued (it's a mess), if only I had any interest left in 40k right now...

[spessmarine]

Sidegrades work in AoS since the kits have it in mind. Pick the dazzling axe of +1 wounding or zippy sword of +1 hitting, access to rerolls making both equivalent statistically. 
Not quite the case for 40k.

 

I get the feeling design philosophy for 10th changed considerably midway and management said no delays. Hence all the jank. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Nice step backwards. Having all wargear cost the same but not be balanced and set unit sizes leading to awkward point totals is less balance, not more. One faction's cheapest unit is 55pts, what do they do with the last 50pts if their list is at 1950? Can't just bring two extra bodies now. Why would anyone bring a plague bolt gun (24" 2A lethal hits 3+ 4S 0ap 1D) over a blight launcher (24" 2A lethal hits 3+ 6S 1ap 2D)? The answer to overpriced optional war gear is to reduce the cost of the wargear to be competitive (ie not a stupid multiple of 5), not make it free so there is 0 reason to not bring the best weapon (which should cost more, cause it's better). Who cares that a flamer is buffed to be more on par to a Melta. They both on a bolter so why isn't that reflected on the point cost and cost more than a bolter? So instead of what was perceived as punishing someone for bringing a over costed peice of wargear the answer is punishing someone for not loading up on as much of the best specials they can? Why can't a flamer be a point or two more instead of 5 or 10 or free?

Edited June 16, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[The Spitehorde]

14 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

That happens nearly every Edition anyway. 

 

It's painful whenever it happens

 

*looks at big pile of 'Zerkers on shelf with both chainaxe and chainsword waiting for me to deal with*

Edited June 16, 2023 by The Spitehorde
Removing weird duplication due to comp glitch.

[Marshal Mittens]

It feels like different people worked on points and balance for different armies. Some feel awesome, while others I just can't understand. For instance a skitarii is 12.5 points and an intercessor is 19 points. Is an intercessor only 6.5 points better than a skitarii? Is a guardsmen only 1/2 as good as a skitarii? 

 

I think there will be clear winners and losers until the codexes are mostly out.