Wh40k 10th Edition Munitorum Field Manual (Points)

[Hoffa]

1 hour ago, danodan123 said:

There are some very knee jerk reactions in this thread, possibly give it a go first ?

I stopped playing my marines when they got the "no points for upgrades" thing so I have had quite some time to decide I don't like this new way.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Hoffa

[Doghouse]

14 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

I wonder if they've done points like this for ease of their own army app creation? It'll cut the data entry down by a vast amount.

 

 

I think it's a combination of this and their change to packaging models so they can put two of the same sprue in the boxes. I personally think this was going to be the approach for 8th onwards but they bottled it.

[acrozatarim]

I legit think it'll turn out that the near complete lack of restriction on what you can take in terms of units will end up having a bigger impact than set wargear costs/model numbers, in the long run.

 

Unless GW get the points balance nailed down really well, we're going to swing into a world where the last restraints of the old detachment systems are completely removed, with wild skew lists at work. Some factions may be lucky enough to have their 'troop' types as well-balanced choices that still appear, but others will drop the regular soldiers like hot rocks and never look back.

 

Even just within CSM, I can build a list with over 200 cultist-type models in it, or a list that's all tanks/daemon engines except for the obligatory character. On the one hand, this sort of freedom is nice. On the other hand... is it a good idea? And how keen are folks for a world where supposed main-line troops that make up the bulk of a faction's armies just vanish from play entirely, without even the much maligned 'troop tax' to try and keep some level of connection to the background of factions' supposed military organisation?

[Malakithe]

7 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

being adaptable is key.

Hard to be adaptable when list building is so wonky now. Ive played enough AoS to be regularly pissed at seeing 1985pts, 1990pts with no way to fix it.

[Malakithe]

2 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

I legit think it'll turn out that the near complete lack of restriction on what you can take in terms of units will end up having a bigger impact than set wargear costs/model numbers, in the long run.

 

Unless GW get the points balance nailed down really well, we're going to swing into a world where the last restraints of the old detachment systems are completely removed, with wild skew lists at work. Some factions may be lucky enough to have their 'troop' types as well-balanced choices that still appear, but others will drop the regular soldiers like hot rocks and never look back.

 

Even just within CSM, I can build a list with over 200 cultist-type models in it, or a list that's all tanks/daemon engines except for the obligatory character. On the one hand, this sort of freedom is nice. On the other hand... is it a good idea? And how keen are folks for a world where supposed main-line troops that make up the bulk of a faction's armies just vanish from play entirely, without even the much maligned 'troop tax' to try and keep some level of connection to the background of factions' supposed military organisation?

I mean....im over here eyeing 3x20 Necron Warriors or 2-6x20 Ork boyz. Time to horde it up

[phandaal]

58 minutes ago, danodan123 said:

There are some very knee jerk reactions in this thread, possibly give it a go first ?

 

Power Levels have been around for a long time. There is nothing "knee jerk" about it.

 

What makes it even better is Games Workshop even called out the "removal" of Power Levels in their article on list building in 10th Edition:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/30/how-army-building-works-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

 

Quote

Power Levels are a thing of the past – points are now the order of the day.

 

 

[DemonGSides]

6 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I mean....im over here eyeing 3x20 Necron Warriors or 2-6x20 Ork boyz. Time to horde it up

 

The Infinite Phalanx calls to you 

[Valkyrion]

9 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Power Levels have been around for a long time. There is nothing "knee jerk" about it.

 

What makes it even better is Games Workshop even called out the "removal" of Power Levels in their article on list building in 10th Edition:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/30/how-army-building-works-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

 

 

 

 

They are *technically* using points though. It's an ill-conceived lesson in kidology in reworking the power level system designed to trick their customers that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but *technically* it is points. 

[Oxydo]

5 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

 

They are *technically* using points though. It's an ill-conceived lesson in kidology in reworking the power level system designed to trick their customers that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but *technically* it is points. 

 

Points in name only, it's like calling a spade a spoon, it's objectively incorret.

[Valkyrion]

11 minutes ago, Oxydo said:

 

Points in name only, it's like calling a spade a spoon, it's objectively incorret.

 

I agree, hence 'ill conceived', 'kidology', 'trick' and 'bad taste'.

[phandaal]

19 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

 

They are *technically* using points though. It's an ill-conceived lesson in kidology in reworking the power level system designed to trick their customers that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but *technically* it is points. 

 

Yeah. They changed the name of Power Levels to "points," deleted what "points" used to be, and said Power Levels were gone.

 

Which makes it a lie. Not Warcom's fault, of course. They are basically Ron Burgundy and will read whatever they are given. But whoever gave them that statement to share knew full well what they were doing.

[Redcomet]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

I wonder if they've done points like this for ease of their own army app creation? It'll cut the data entry down by a vast amount.

 

I'll give tenth a go but far more looking forward to more AoS/ mesbg/ sw legion and armada.

 

The new Shatterpoint is fantastic btw

[Dark Legionnare]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

I mean....im over here eyeing 3x20 Necron Warriors or 2-6x20 Ork boyz. Time to horde it up

One of the major goods 10th had me hyped for is a return to fielding my tide of boys without:

 

four lads dying causing a ton of the squad to run away. Lose four boys, then auto-lose another 7-8 in a 30 man blob.

 

Weird it's down to 20 max now, but just means I get to run 5x20 now instead of 3x30 plus some point-holdin lads.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Noserenda]

51 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

The new Shatterpoint is fantastic btw

I dunno, its more a lesson on what could be even worse as a relatively new Legion player, them dropping a new game in an entirely new scale was a bit of a kick in the teeth. I mean imagine the fury if when Primaris first dropped they squatted all the hobbit marines? 

[brother_b]

The game rules, points costs, and list building should NOT be arbitrarily tied to the contents of the models in a box.

 

Vanguard skitarii with the TUA? Previously made no sense, it just happened to be an option in the dual vanguard/ranger box. Vanguard had assault weapons and charged up the board.

 

Now? It’s a heavy range 36” weapon. Vanguard rifles are range 18”. It still makes no sense but has been included in the cost of the unit?

 

 

 

 

[Arkhanist]

4 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I dunno, its more a lesson on what could be even worse as a relatively new Legion player, them dropping a new game in an entirely new scale was a bit of a kick in the teeth. I mean imagine the fury if when Primaris first dropped they squatted all the hobbit marines? 

 

Just as Legion changed the scale on Star Wars: Imperial Assault players...

[crimsondave]

Maybe the bigger non-GW tournaments can get together and come up with their own points system.  I was actually pretty excited about 10th until the pseudo power level news dropped.  I never played one tournament and even I never used power level to make a list.  Tournaments are already banning Eldar after all.  It’s not that big of a stretch for them to make that move.  As a narrative player I can house rule whatever but I’d rather have a community agreed upon approach for that big of a modification.

[Bradeh]

House rules for competitive always seems to end poorly, just causes divides. A wet plaster. 

[Redcomet]

30 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I dunno, its more a lesson on what could be even worse as a relatively new Legion player, them dropping a new game in an entirely new scale was a bit of a kick in the teeth. I mean imagine the fury if when Primaris first dropped they squatted all the hobbit marines? 

Eh?

 

It is a completely different game??

 

Legion isn’t going away 

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, crimsondave said:

Maybe the bigger non-GW tournaments can get together and come up with their own points system.  I was actually pretty excited about 10th until the pseudo power level news dropped.  I never played one tournament and even I never used power level to make a list.  Tournaments are already banning Eldar after all.  It’s not that big of a stretch for them to make that move.  As a narrative player I can house rule whatever but I’d rather have a community agreed upon approach for that big of a modification.

Right, exactly. I would never play in a tournament, if I want a sweaty tactical battle fix, I’ll just play COH. That said, list building (beyond just X of this unit, Y of this unit), tradeoffs, and at least getting some compensating points for taking a cooler looking option over the “best” are all missed features.

 

Is it the end of the world? No. Does it make the whole of the hobby “feel” worse, and leave a sour taste, especially with *how* this has been implemented with a kind of semantic slight of hand? Absolutely. Oh well, it is what it is. Until it isn’t.

[01RTB01]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Hard to be adaptable when list building is so wonky now. Ive played enough AoS to be regularly pissed at seeing 1985pts, 1990pts with no way to fix it.

You're missing out on less than a percent of the points. Its 0.0075 if you take 15/2000. Honestly it's negligible and really isn't worth the level of grumble you're attributing.

 

 

[Marshal Mittens]

I wonder if this is all simplified for the Index and will suck less in the codexs.

[tzeentch9]

8 minutes ago, Marshal Mittens said:

I wonder if this is all simplified for the Index and will suck less in the codexs.

Seems unlikely, think we are stuck with it 

[crimsondave]

20 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

You're missing out on less than a percent of the points. Its 0.0075 if you take 15/2000. Honestly it's negligible and really isn't worth the level of grumble you're attributing.

 

 

Says you.

[Doghouse]

@Marshal Mittens Yeah this is the way forward for this edition.

 

I'm far from thrilled with it but will atleast give it a try I think.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Doghouse