Legions Imperialis Legions Imperialis

[Mandragola]

I've had a chance to watch the batrep on warhammertv and it's actually changed my opinion of the heavy bolters somewhat. I hadn't been factoring in the usefulness of Overwatch enough and actually it's quite a big deal. Point defence weapons (which heavy bolters are but lascannons are not) don't suffer -2 to hit for firing on Overwatch. Charging something like a unit of Sicarans with heavy bolter sponsons, or even just a rhino detachment, could be pretty bloody.

 

I think this means that you can have tanks press forward, kind of daring the enemy to charge them... and I guess hoping they didn't pack their own tanks with lascannons to just shoot you dead!

 

The other thing you can do with point defence weapons is fire them during your move, either before or after moving. That means you can shoot before the enemy can move at all, though not before they get a chance to overwatch (unless it's before you move). This will tend to only be useful against infantry, as most point defence weapons are Light, but you do get some Light AT ones - usually autocannons.

 

So ok, these guns do have a use. It's taking me a while to get my head round the interactions of the many special rules in this game. There are 20 pages of weapon traits and unit special rules, even before you look at the formations and Legion special rules. It's a lot!

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Mandragola

[Noserenda]

I have to say, 20 pages of special rules is a serious downer after all the swearing our group did at the various age of darkness books last weekend, mostly chanting "i hate this book" whilst look something up and discovering i accidentally cheated in a previous game because a rules interaction was in a bizarre third location... Infuriating.

IE Does it look like there is a complete list of rules at least so they wont also be scattered through the supplements? 

[Matcap86]

23 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I have to say, 20 pages of special rules is a serious downer after all the swearing our group did at the various age of darkness books last weekend, mostly chanting "i hate this book" whilst look something up and discovering i accidentally cheated in a previous game because a rules interaction was in a bizarre third location... Infuriating.

IE Does it look like there is a complete list of rules at least so they wont also be scattered through the supplements? 

 

I came across this on Reddit: A cheatsheet with all the special rules. https://old.reddit.com/r/LegionsImperialis/comments/17ztekf/special_rules_cheatsheet/

Edited November 21, 2023 by matcap86

[Pacific81]

Apparently Firestorm Games still have some Starter Sets available for pre-order if anyone is still after one

[Mandragola]

20 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

IE Does it look like there is a complete list of rules at least so they wont also be scattered through the supplements? 

Things look much better than 30k on that front. You get all the pages of weapon rules (like point defence) and then all the ones for units (like infiltrate). They are consecutive and the two sections are alphabetical. 
 

They do cover rules that no current units seem to have. For example there’s a “Precise” rule that lets the firer allocate hits, rather than the defender. This suggests that we’ll get snipers in future and won’t need more special rules to cover them. There are probably other examples but I haven’t searched for all of them. 

[Gillyfish]

Well, they have already got a supplement and models planned which suggests that those special rules should be pretty comprehensive (for weapons). Like Titanicus, I suspect there may be some distinct formations for certain Legions and the Guard which may have new special rules and then there may be some additional stratagems or similar to add some more options to the game, but mainly you would hop that the comprehensive set of special rules should be all they need for the weapons.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Gillyfish said:

Like Titanicus, I suspect there may be some distinct formations for certain Legions and the Guard which may have new special rules and then there may be some additional stratagems or similar to add some more options to the game, but mainly you would hop that the comprehensive set of special rules should be all they need for the weapons.

 

I kinda hope it doesn't spiral to the extent Titanicus did.

 

Maniples were originally the main source of customization, with the trait and wargear adding a bit of flavor. Playing intro games where it was mirror maniple and no strats/wargear/allegiance/traits were some of the best games I've had of AT. It's all just layered combos and buffs now with custom traits, corruptions, universal wargear, allegiance ability, maniple and stratagems supercharging your titans. Really takes away from the actual mechanics of the armour locations and arcs and all that. 

 

Introduce new units and factions to LI, but don't go full 9th edition 40k/final version of AT. 

[DuskRaider]

I dunno, I’ve had the opposite experience. I actually think AT became more fun using Legio traits, Strats, etc. Some of them were cheesy like the Vox Blackout or whatever that some people would use to make it where you basically wasted points on Strats that pop off at the beginning of the game (like March of the Dead), but otherwise I think they added another layer of fun. Playing against my buddy’s Kratos and having him flatten city blocks with his special weapons was pretty fun and trying to avoid my buddy’s Fureans Warhounds from toppling my Warlords make for some tense, thematic moments. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Different strokes and all that i guess.

 

The maneuver, movement, and interacting with the terminal tracks are the exciting and fun parts for me. It's the unique draw of the game that i can't really get anywhere else. Heavy combo-ing for hyper lethality was all of 40k for 8th and 9th and one shotting titans down kinda undermined the draws of the system for me. 

 

I got really excited when i saw the orders were really simple and there were no strats in LI. Honestly, i could have done without legion traits there too.

[twopounder]

There are loyalist and traitor designations in special rules, which suggests that there will be legion specific models released.

[Matrindur]

1 hour ago, twopounder said:

There are loyalist and traitor designations in special rules, which suggests that there will be legion specific models released.

Small addon, the Loyalist special rule is already used by the Warlord Psi Titan but since Traitor isn't used yet, it still means we should be getting Traitor/Loyalist specific stuff. Very likely Primarchs since they already kinda teased those and there is also a Unique special rule which only makes sense for Primarchs and characters and if we are getting Primarchs we are also likely getting other legion specific stuff

Edited November 22, 2023 by Matrindur

[Gattopardo]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Different strokes and all that i guess.

 

The maneuver, movement, and interacting with the terminal tracks are the exciting and fun parts for me. It's the unique draw of the game that i can't really get anywhere else. Heavy combo-ing for hyper lethality was all of 40k for 8th and 9th and one shotting titans down kinda undermined the draws of the system for me. 

 

I got really excited when i saw the orders were really simple and there were no strats in LI. Honestly, i could have done without legion traits there too.

Yeah, having played quite a bit of AT I agree with this.

 

Like, I totally get why the studio came out with Legio traits for AT, which are fun and add a lot of flavour; similarly with stratagems, and allegiance abilities, but the problem is that over time, these things add up and you end up with these multi layered combos that I don't believe the designers can realistically foresee and balance (to the extent they were interested in balance, which they aren't!). But it just ends up with silly stuff like Reavers being able to cross the whole of no man's land on turn 1, which is a bit jarring when titans are supposed to be these lumbering awkward beasts, and can also really catch people out in a way that isn't really about superior tactical play. 

 

I really, really hope this isn't true for LI and it's got an appropriate amount of abstraction for the scale - I'm a bit concerned if micro choices like what guns your predator tank has are of importance, as at 8mm I just don't think that kind of thing should matter much. The mechanic of issuing orders at the start sounds very promising, I just hope the game doesn't end up with too much of the layered combos as opposed to being about manoeuvre warfare. We'll see I guess.

[Bung]

@Gattopardo

After watching some battlereports on youtube LI wont be that granular.

With the sponson choices between Heavy Bolter or Lascannon its basically the choice between Anti Infantry or Anti Tank. I doubt there will be more for SM in that regard.

Same choice will probably the main guns for tanks, maybe some Flakk options if they add a Sicaran Arcus etc.

 

The only thing i am concerned with is the stacking of special rules with different Legions / Solar Auxilia and maybe other factions.

[Pacific81]

I kind of agree with the above. I think the developers had a bit of a balancing act with this game; they couldn't just copy SM/Titan Legions as although the very basic unit stats work for that game with the massive variety of alien races and different units, in Legions you effectively just have marines and guard - so some granular detail/crunch is needed to help make what is effectively 'blue on blue' warfare more interesting.

 

The more I see of the game in action the more I think they were very conservative with it (modernising where needing to, such as with the missions) and TBH I am fine with that, because Epic SM was a wonderful game in many respects, and if ain't broke then why fix it? My biggest challenge approaching this game as a grognard with an existing collection is that so many basic units are missing from launch, so a lot of my stuff will stay in the box for the time being if I play this ruleset. But obviously this won't be a problem for someone approaching Epic for the first time.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Pacific81

[Noserenda]

I think they've taken some lessons from AT with minimal faction rules here and stuff like corrupt legions replacing the regular legion rules in AoD. Not always well implemented admittedly, but trying to stop spiralling!

[SkimaskMohawk]

My buddy sent me a jumble of the titan datasheets sceeenshotted from GMG. Warmaster seems very, very strong and can be taken at 2500. Some pretty strong weapons in general on the titans, but they definitely can't all stand and deliver in the open.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Marshal Rohr]

Time to invest in Aircraft until the Titan Hunting Tanks come out

[Black Cohort]

it looks like Titans, especially the bigger ones are tough but will suffer under focused fire from dedicated anti-armour assets which could be planes, tanks, other Titans or even infantry with the right weapons.  I guess how well they stand up depends on how much it costs to get enough anti-armour to handle them.  Titans may end up becoming one of those things you bring knowing it is likely going to die early in the game, but the enemy having to deal with it keeps other key parts of your force alive.

[DuskRaider]

So the Warmaster is basically the same in LI as it is in AT: big and scary but extremely expensive and can be focus fired to death. 
 

In theory it’s a cool Titan. In reality, it’s a massive point sink that often times isn’t worth the points. 

[MegaVolt87]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:46 AM, Marshal Rohr said:

The range and factions aren’t complete. Defaulting to anti-armor is the trap AoD is falling in right now because there aren’t enough units in plastic that is causing cookie cutter efficiency builds. When more and varied infantry is released and the factions expand beyond marines and Auxilia just tanking nothing but anti-armor on tanks might be a huge handicap against Mechanicum robots or anti-tank wielding infantry units in cover. 

 

If you are talking about HH main, it's actually better to load up on AT fits for tanks, because it's better to instant death tough infantry such termi's, legion unique units. Your infantry have enough to deal with other more basic infantry units. Having anti infantry tank fit's is more useful in LI. In the LI bat reps I have seen, the humble HB is far more effective in numbers there. Anti infantry fit dreads are very efficient in HH main, x2 contempors with a fist + gun (volkkite, plasma cannon, assault cannon, HB) or volkkite/ plasma cannon jetbikes are better bang for buck anti infantry than an equivalent tank build. Obviously Sicaran Arcus and whirlwind are exceptions to vehicle anti infantry fits (sicaran punisher for IF's). 

[Nagashsnee]

I dont know, it seems to me that titans can take some fantastic load out stacked with over 30'range weapons and actually function like they do in the lore. Long range pain layers. 

 

Even the humble warhound can take 2x2 turbo lasers at 4 shots at bs4+ with a re roll and ap-3 AND accurate and happily spend the game using its speed and range picking off tanks. 

 

One we get anti flyer units like daradeos even they will not be a 100% realiable answer. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

It's gonna be a fun Arms race, seems like most things are going to have a place in armies. 

[Valkyrion]

Quick Void Shield question - does a void shield protect against one dice roll, or one weapon attack? e.g, a titan with one void shield left is hit by a A10 vulcan bolter and all of them hit.  Is it that 1 breaks the shield and 9 go through, or the whole entire attack is used to break the shield?

[Matrindur]

Just noticed an interesting point:

The Imperial Fists legion special rules gives infantry detachments with specific weapons the accurate trait if they get the first fire order. Those weapons are the bolters, combi bolters, bolt pistols and missile launchers which are all on the current infantry models. But there are also plasma cannons, lascannons and autocannons listed. With the lascannon they could mean the Tarantula lascannon battery depending on if it has to be the same name or just include the word lascannon which isn't 100% clear in the rule but even then there are no plasma cannons or autocannons on any infantry. (Dreadnoughts are walkers) 

 

Looking at HH the only units with plasma cannons or autocannons other than dreadnougts are the Jetbikes and Land speeders which both shouldn't be infantry and the heavy support squad. So that basically confirms more support squads in addition to the plasma gun and missile launcher variants in the future.

There are also the Reaper Autocannon and Plasma Blaster as special weapons on the Terminators but I think those are less likely than more support squads

[Matrindur]

4 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

Quick Void Shield question - does a void shield protect against one dice roll, or one weapon attack? e.g, a titan with one void shield left is hit by a A10 vulcan bolter and all of them hit.  Is it that 1 breaks the shield and 9 go through, or the whole entire attack is used to break the shield?

Its one shield per hit so in your example 9 would go through.

 

Quote

Each time a Hit is allocated to a model's void shields, reduce its Void Shields level by 1 then discard the Hit. Once the Void Shield level reaches 0, the Void Shields collapse and are no longer active. Any remaining Hits are allocated to the model and resolved as normal

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Matrindur