The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[EverythingIsGreat]

12 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

I would say things would be different but worse, less fun.  Playing a game for a long time, thinking there was a chance it might all work out only in the end to see it was all for not would suck.

 

Not necessarily. You can always be a Chaos player, where notions of "better" or "worse" don't really mean much. Even winning may not be the point. It would be like gaming for the sake of gaming, and you go all-in for maximum disruption because you just don't care :) Or, say field a Genestealer/Tyranid army. Presently, they seem to have very good prospects.

[EverythingIsGreat]

I would like to add the Age of Darkness compilation of short stories (Book 16) for showing different aspects of HH/30K. It seems that we got collectively more non-campaign-related info in short stories than in any single novel. Plus they may have offbeat premises. Nick Kyme has been getting a lot of flak here, but his entry in AoD ("Forgotten Sons") is fun... Loyalists and Traitors sending delegations to an important planet in order to win it for their side with diplomacy. And there are pretty good entries from all the usual suspects including forum-favorites like ADB and Wright.  

Edited August 14, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[Fedor]

On 8/13/2023 at 6:12 AM, DarkChaplain said:

Nemesis started out so well, with that whole murder mystery cult thing.... and then the book went another 400 pages after getting rid of that premise =/

 

When i read that one for the second time a few years ago, i was struck by how oddly Swallow sets up the reveal about the investigator. It's almost non-existent, to the point it had no impact on me, but maybe i wasn't paying enough attention/too thick and missed something.

[Krelious]

Soo do people like the released art work for book 3? Ive been looking at it and I just feel mixed feelings as there are aspects I like and others I dont. As much as I like say the conceptual idea of Horus' claw being bigger than the Emperor, seeking to swallow him it makes the Emperor look small and his stance is just odd while world breaker is like a twig compared to the Talon. While I like the space battle I think it limits the main action in the scene. The one thing I really do like is the subtle feathers from sanguinious but in general the vibe I get from Horus is 1990s cartoon toy villain box art. 

 

If I had to give a rating to the art works I would say 2 is clearly the best, followed closely by 1, and 3, I want to like it but I clearly dont, it just feels off.

[System Sound]

For me vol 1 art is the best out of the 3.

 

As for vol 3, I think it's one of the worst in the heresy, right behind Ruinstorm and Visions of Heresy reprint.

[Taliesin]

2 hours ago, Krelious said:

Soo do people like the released art work for book 3? Ive been looking at it and I just feel mixed feelings as there are aspects I like and others I dont. As much as I like say the conceptual idea of Horus' claw being bigger than the Emperor, seeking to swallow him it makes the Emperor look small and his stance is just odd while world breaker is like a twig compared to the Talon. While I like the space battle I think it limits the main action in the scene. The one thing I really do like is the subtle feathers from sanguinious but in general the vibe I get from Horus is 1990s cartoon toy villain box art. 

 

If I had to give a rating to the art works I would say 2 is clearly the best, followed closely by 1, and 3, I want to like it but I clearly dont, it just feels off.

 

Really not a fan of cover for 2, but I like the ones for vol 1 and 2, especially the first one.

[Cactus]

I can't plough through three more pages of Scribe making the same points again so I'm jumping here from page 6 to drop my own opinions.

 

1. People seem to have forgotten that the Horus Heresy series was originally a setting. One that was established with an opening trilogy then intentionally allowed to meander and explore the events before and during Horus' rebellion. Reader backlash led to it being presented more as an ongoing tale that stepped chronologically through the big (and some minor) events. I don't claim this was done without missteps and fractures but most arguments that the series should have been a more coherent, planned and much shorter beast ignore the context of how it came to exist.

 

2. To directly answer the question of why does TEatD, or the SoT, have to be so long my answer is atmosphere. The extra word count is an immersion in the convoluted gothic madness that is Warhammer 40,000 and I for one am enjoying the ride. It's not for everyone but no literature is. For anyone wanting a shorter read William King wrote two pages in an old White Dwarf that you might enjoy, or be selective in what you buy and read. I expect 'reader's cuts' to emerge in time, like the fan edits of the Star Wars prequels, that suit those preferences more. Personally I would cut the entire 'Rann and Zephon play Call of Duty' sequence but absolutely keep Zenobi's journey.

[DarkChaplain]

3 hours ago, Cactus said:

1. People seem to have forgotten that the Horus Heresy series was originally a setting. One that was established with an opening trilogy then intentionally allowed to meander and explore the events before and during Horus' rebellion.

 

Except that this was decidedly not the plan starting out. It was never intended to meander - that happened when they saw sales being extremely strong.

Book 1-3 are a straight trilogy, book 4 spins right off of book 3, and book 5 is the logical follow-up in the narrative from another Legion's perspective. Book 6 zooms out to show the Dark Angels homeworld, but its goal was to establish the internal schism of that time because that was their key point in the lore, pre-destruction of Caliban post-Siege. Book 7 is the first book that does something entirely new... and that was Abnett's take on why another of the Legions turned traitor. Even that would still fit cleanly in the one-book-per-Legion rule after the opening trilogy.

Battle for the Abyss, book 8, is the first novel in the series that goes firmly off the beaten path and doesn't directly deal with a Legion's premise from the fluff as it was back then. It's the first you could really consider playing in the setting, rather than having a box to tick under it all.

Mechanicum then goes back to establishing the schism on Mars, another key plot point.

 

Tales of Heresy is an anthology that has both direct tie-ins to other works already published in the series (or outside, in the case of Call of the Lion, which ties into Gav's Angels of Darkness novel instead), or tries to give a Legion / Primarch / faction the spotlight who has been glossed over so far.

 

It's Age of Darkness, book 16, which really brings the sandbox into the picture with its stories. They're all over the place, painting in the setting while barely even touching on plot contributions. Most of the stories are utterly isolated from the main throughline. And the real switch to setting-over-story happens even later, when corporate took more control over Black Library's business and short stories started to rain like there was no tomorrow - up until book 22, Shadows of Treachery, even the anthologies were entirely original, not republishing anything previously available, but what it collected were mostly old audio dramas in prose, two new novellas and McNeill's The Kaban Project from Collected Visions.

 

The "setting" phase is more settled around the mid-twenties to late-thirties of the series. They already went back into "oh hells we gotta finish this sometime soon"-mode before book 40. After that, there are two types of books: Anthologies collecting the short story flood, and novels finishing pre-Siege plotlines and moving the actors to where they need to be (though in some cases, like Wolfsbane, this meant moving the player into a new direction, because they were left stranded during the setting phase).

 

 

Lots of words to express one sentiment: The premise of your argument on what upset people and what the editorial intent was like isn't accurate.

[Cactus]

@DarkChaplain my source is this 2017 interview with Dan Abnett which I might have poorly paraphrased.

 

Quote

We originally planned that we would have a trilogy at the beginning that would set up the Horus Heresy, and then we would treat the entire history of the Horus Heresy a bit like something big like the Second World War.

We would simply write novels exploring different aspects of it until at some indistinct point in the future we would tie everything up again. We thought there were all sorts of things we could do – an Imperial Army book, a book about the Alpha Legion, and so on, and they would sort of add together like a mosaic without having to be constrained particularly to some kind of spinal story. It was all ‘books set in the Horus Heresy’. Certainly, I think once we were passed the first three that’s how we worked, and people did enjoy that…

I think after a while though, fans were getting frustrated, not with the novels but with the sense that they weren’t sure how they progressed. They felt that there should be a timeline of ‘this happened, then this, now this is happening next’, which makes perfect sense. Once we were all aware of it we went ‘yeah, of course they do. Why are we doing this? It’s like we’ve written El Alamein before the Battle of Britain, or whatever’.

We’d done elements of the story in the wrong order, or at least we were in danger of doing that. So in the last few years we’ve really focused our attention on getting it back into the books that ‘matter’, so fewer of these very interesting but peripheral novels set in that period, and more novels that actively advance, book by book, the ongoing story so that there isn’t this slightly woolly sense of what was going on.

 

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

*snip*

Edited August 25, 2023 by Mechanicus Tech-Support
Ate food, realized I was being unnecessarily antagonistic

[Nagashsnee]

So they on purpose wrote books that 'they would sort of add together like a mosaic without having to be constrained particularly to some kind of spinal story' and then published said books in a numbered spinal story format? 

 

But then THEY were confused when WE got confused why book 12 has nothing to do with books 9-11 whose story caries on in book 15? (random example numbers).

 

Every time I read about BL behind the scenes planning they always, ALWAYS find a way to tell me they have not one single clue about what they are doing, but are always CERTAIN they know what they are doing, and this has not changed.

 

From 'These book should be read as one so we are releasing them 12 months apart'  to 'we had many in depth strategy meetings to make no mistakes and only revealed details about the 8 book series when we were 100% certain we got it right...anyhow here are books 9 and 10 of the 8 book series'. 

 

On the other hand almost everything they put out sells out so why should they aim any higher?

[DukeLeto69]

Yeah the biggest contradiction to Abnett’s interview explanation was the BL decision to number the novels. That in and of itself implies a sequence or series.

 

Hindsight is easy but the HH should have been a setting with novels and trilogies and mini-series focused on whatever they wanted BUT with a “primary series” focused on Horus getting from A (Ullanor or before) to Z (Terra). They could have removed the numbers and used the “flag” colour on the spine to identify that (for a while I thought they were with the red “flags” on the opening trilogy but then that all just...stopped). 

[System Sound]

1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Yeah the biggest contradiction to Abnett’s interview explanation was the BL decision to number the novels. That in and of itself implies a sequence or series.

 

Hindsight is easy but the HH should have been a setting with novels and trilogies and mini-series focused on whatever they wanted BUT with a “primary series” focused on Horus getting from A (Ullanor or before) to Z (Terra). They could have removed the numbers and used the “flag” colour on the spine to identify that (for a while I thought they were with the red “flags” on the opening trilogy but then that all just...stopped). 

Sadly, knowing BL more than half of those trilogies or mini series would be abandoned half way, because of "Lack of Sales". Totally not because BL fails to do bare :cuss:ing minimum in marketing or quality control...

[cheywood]

The listing for Part 3 is up on Simon and Schuster (heads up for mild spoilers in the description): https://catalog.simonandschuster.com/TitleDetails/TitleDetails.aspx?cid=1440&isbn=9781804074886&FilterByName=Season&FilterBy=15&FilterVal=Spring+2024&ob=0&pn=1&ed=&showcart=N&camefrom=&find=&a=

 

The release date is listed as January 30th but S&S is almost always wrong. My guess is it’s still coming for the celebration as we all expected. 
 

Spoiler

The Great Angel, Sanguinius, lies slain at his brother’s hand.
Terra burns as reality itself unravels and the greatest bastion of civilisation teeters on the brink of annihilation.
Desperate defenders gather, banding against the rabid traitor hordes. The Hollow Mountain, host to the pilgrims of Euphrati Keeler, is one of the last redoubts, held by the Dark Angels while the unclean host of Typhus lays siege. Malcador the Sigillite sits ablaze on the Golden Throne, trying to buy his master more time. But time is running out…
Guilliman races across the stars to reinforce the Throneworld. Will he return to ashes, where a Warmaster of Chaos has ascended to godhood, or will the Emperor have triumphed? And at what cost?
It all comes down to one final, climactic confrontation: the Emperor versus Horus. The father against the son.

 

[darkhorse0607]

47 minutes ago, cheywood said:

The listing for Part 3 is up on Simon and Schuster (heads up for mild spoilers in the description): https://catalog.simonandschuster.com/TitleDetails/TitleDetails.aspx?cid=1440&isbn=9781804074886&FilterByName=Season&FilterBy=15&FilterVal=Spring+2024&ob=0&pn=1&ed=&showcart=N&camefrom=&find=&a=

 

The release date is listed as January 30th but S&S is almost always wrong. My guess is it’s still coming for the celebration as we all expected. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Great Angel, Sanguinius, lies slain at his brother’s hand.
Terra burns as reality itself unravels and the greatest bastion of civilisation teeters on the brink of annihilation.
Desperate defenders gather, banding against the rabid traitor hordes. The Hollow Mountain, host to the pilgrims of Euphrati Keeler, is one of the last redoubts, held by the Dark Angels while the unclean host of Typhus lays siege. Malcador the Sigillite sits ablaze on the Golden Throne, trying to buy his master more time. But time is running out…
Guilliman races across the stars to reinforce the Throneworld. Will he return to ashes, where a Warmaster of Chaos has ascended to godhood, or will the Emperor have triumphed? And at what cost?
It all comes down to one final, climactic confrontation: the Emperor versus Horus. The father against the son.

 

 

Spoiler

There better be a really, really good explanation for how Keeler and the mass of civilians somehow get through Death Guard lines, all of the other traitors, and whatever else to get to the Hollow Mountain with the Dark Angels. If it's another "they went through a portal or door" and popped out there I'm going to throw my book

 

[System Sound]

January 30th is definitely a placeholder, since it's a Tuesday.

[grailkeeper]

1 hour ago, System Sound said:

January 30th is definitely a placeholder, since it's a Tuesday.

9/11, D-Day, and the 1929 Wall Street crash all also took place on a Tueday.

 

Coincidence?

 

Yes.

 

[Roomsky]

Still mad it's 3 parts, but I also rejoice, for the rage Sanguinius theory is finally dead and buried.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea idk whats happening here. Keeler and crew are wandering around outside the delphic battlement in volume 1, an already plot-precarious area as the traitors had overran that and pierced the delphic battlement in Echoes. She ran into people trying to make for the gilded walk (an area past the bastions that were falling at the start of echoes), and suggests to them to go to exultant instead because there's Angela and fists there that need to be resupplied. Exultant is the wall that connects Mercury wall and collosi bastion; mercury was breached in Mortis, and collosi is where the scars staged their sorti from in Warhawk, and were noted as being completely surrounded. These directions/locations abnett talks about should be complete suicide and practically impossible to get to; it'd be like in LoTR if Gandalf told pippin to deliver to supplies to osgiliath as they're defending the last tier of Minas tirith.

 

And then Keeler ends up even further away. I'm not too sure on the orientation of the hollow mountain to the sanctum, but abnett describes the death guard as turning their backs on the palace and going to the mountain; literary device aside, they leave LGSP and go to the mountain. How Keeler could make it the distance to the space port, let alone the mountain (an estimated three day journey by the dark Angels) without abnett teleport is beyond my guess. 

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

As is tradition, they will Just Get There.

 

My gut says 'Keeler's faith guides her' - as Terra is further immersed in the Immaterium, the power of her belief is likely to be able to quite literally move mountains. If she needs to be somewhere, she's going to get there. 

[Nagashsnee]

13 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Yea idk whats happening here. Keeler and crew are wandering around outside the delphic battlement in volume 1, an already plot-precarious area as the traitors had overran that and pierced the delphic battlement in Echoes. She ran into people trying to make for the gilded walk (an area past the bastions that were falling at the start of echoes), and suggests to them to go to exultant instead because there's Angela and fists there that need to be resupplied. Exultant is the wall that connects Mercury wall and collosi bastion; mercury was breached in Mortis, and collosi is where the scars staged their sorti from in Warhawk, and were noted as being completely surrounded. These directions/locations abnett talks about should be complete suicide and practically impossible to get to; it'd be like in LoTR if Gandalf told pippin to deliver to supplies to osgiliath as they're defending the last tier of Minas tirith.

 

And then Keeler ends up even further away. I'm not too sure on the orientation of the hollow mountain to the sanctum, but abnett describes the death guard as turning their backs on the palace and going to the mountain; literary device aside, they leave LGSP and go to the mountain. How Keeler could make it the distance to the space port, let alone the mountain (an estimated three day journey by the dark Angels) without abnett teleport is beyond my guess. 

 

Same way Rogal Dorn, his legion and their staff went from surrounded and under siege in Bhad bastion to walking into the inner Palace to join the assault team (Just have them teleport from Bhad!).

 

Like Dorn, Keeler and indeed many others used a less know military technique know as the 'Off Screen', you see no matter how bad your situation, no matter how far from you need to be, no matter how insane the type of speed that would be needed to get there in time, its all ok if it happens 'Off Screen'.  Worse case you employ a tactical 'yadda-yadda' or 'hand wave' to take care of any follow up issues.  If issue still persist have a character explain that 'now is not the time to explain' and then just forget about it forever. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Felix Antipodes]

After all the trouble and expense they went to making accurate maps of the Imperial Palace, you’d think they would have had given the authors a copy so they got such details right 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Loken just obviously spends book 2 using his Super-Psyker powers to cast Gate on every one of Keelers followers. 

[Nagashsnee]

I was talking to a friend about book 2 yesterday, assuming its around 400 pages, we came down to 2 conclusions, either:

1) Angel vs Horus involves some serious flashbacks and actually takes up around 200 pages or

2) The fight is 20% or less of the book, in which case we have around 300 pages 'free'.

 

For me its 50 pages on Dorn, 50 on the Emperor but only right at the end of the book and 200 on loken/keeler/Abbie and Zephon/Rand.   I also think like part one Sanguinius will make his way to Horus really fast, but then we will cut away for ages, mirroring the assault party teleporting up early in book one and then...well you all know. 

 

I secretly hope the actual fight takes almost no pages at all, i think it should be a heart to heart and then Sanguinius should go down and fast,  the only think that will make me lose my marbles is them trying to portray him as having a fair shot and then losing. He is tired, beaten, broken and poisoned. He should not be able to contest Horus. 

 

But the fact that Russ did and actually could have ended it all and come out on top of a post power up Horus...it worries me. 

 

I want to hear what people think the book will cover. Not details so much as general story structure.  Will we get relief fleet pov? Will the perpetuals somehow escape and go on another adventure? Will Zephon and BFF take up way too much of the book? Will somebody reveal to Loken that he is in fact a Wizard?

Edited September 19, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Lord_Caerolion]

My guess? Extended flashback sequences of Sanguinius’ time learning alongside Horus, as Horus tries to wear Sanguinius down mentally before their clash, and that the clock’s run out. More meaningless set-pieces of Zephon and Rann as they steadily fall back, that the clock’s run out. Extended flashback sequences of Loken thinking back on the glorious past of his Legion and the growing corruption within, seeing that the clock’s run out. The Dark Angels trying to reignite the Astronomican but being unable to, foreshadowing that it’s going to require Keeler to martyr herself and her followers in a blaze of faith/psychic energy in book 3, as the clock’s run out. Hopefully something actually happening with Dorn instead of just the galaxies longest desert getaway, the clock’s run out. More faff about the Argonauts being mysterious and cramming in yet more plot-twists, and that the clock’s run out.
 

And, of course, more than anything else, prose that reads like it got fed through the worlds 20 most esoteric thesauruses sequentially but only adding the recommendations instead of swapping them, combined with reminder after reminder that the clock’s run out.