17th November preview event

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

40k fans as an anonymous mass do not reward innovation, the most profitable thing to do is endless variations of space marines, which the creatives fight against (rightly) but its a both the source of 40k's success and a millstone around its neck (even more so in 30k arguably) that stops things being too different. People still feel Tau are "new" and they are what, 20 years old at this point? Madness :P 

Tau might be considered new because all us damned millennials can’t accept it’s not 2008 still

[soviet1337]

Eddie Eccles does a great job presenting these, he's enthusiastic and polished but also funny and just a genuine hobbyist. They can't seem to settle on a partner for him can they.
 

I quite liked Adam Troke, he was a little less polished and sometimes seemed to talk over Eddie, but also just a genuine enthusiastic hobbyist. Didn't like the American guy (Paul) so much, his enthusiasm felt a bit too loud and forced. The young lad they had on for the previous time wasn't too bad, just wasn't enough of a grognard yet for me to connect with him. Wade Price is really good (bring back voxcast) but he's been promoted out of this arena I guess. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, soviet1337 said:

Eddie Eccles does a great job presenting these, he's enthusiastic and polished but also funny and just a genuine hobbyist. They can't seem to settle on a partner for him can they.
 

I quite liked Adam Troke, he was a little less polished and sometimes seemed to talk over Eddie, but also just a genuine enthusiastic hobbyist. Didn't like the American guy (Paul) so much, his enthusiasm felt a bit too loud and forced. The young lad they had on for the previous time wasn't too bad, just wasn't enough of a grognard yet for me to connect with him. Wade Price is really good (bring back voxcast) but he's been promoted out of this arena I guess. 

What? An American loud? Couldn’t possibly have happened!

[Mogger351]

24 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

What? An American loud? Couldn’t possibly have happened!

Having not watched it, was it Paul Murphy? If so he seems a very fair, level and invested guy who does/has done a lot for the community over there.

[01RTB01]

2 hours ago, soviet1337 said:

Eddie Eccles does a great job presenting these, he's enthusiastic and polished but also funny and just a genuine hobbyist. They can't seem to settle on a partner for him can they.
 

I quite liked Adam Troke, he was a little less polished and sometimes seemed to talk over Eddie, but also just a genuine enthusiastic hobbyist. Didn't like the American guy (Paul) so much, his enthusiasm felt a bit too loud and forced. The young lad they had on for the previous time wasn't too bad, just wasn't enough of a grognard yet for me to connect with him. Wade Price is really good (bring back voxcast) but he's been promoted out of this arena I guess. 

Wade is now 40k Lead Writer. I'm hoping that given enough time he steers the ship in an interesting direction as he's sufficiently 'old school'.

 

A lot of the quality talent from the studio has gone sadly.

[Zoatibix]

Space Marines are the blessing and curse of 40K.

 

Incredibly popular, that’s not a debate. But sometimes I feel that more effort spent on other armies would result in more creativity.

 

Plus the design team are stuck in a damned if they do, damned if they don’t reiterative cycle with Marines.

 

I think Stormcast not being so popular has actually allowed the design team for AoS even more creative freedom (on top of, you know, blowing up the old setting)

 

The nihlus rift and Primaris seemed to be a way of having their cake and eating it.
 

And let’s not forget all the ‘true scale marine’ projects folks posted on places like Warseer.

 

Primaris just seem soulless to me, at any rate, but I’m not lover of Marines anyway.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Zoatibix
PWI

[Halandaar]

23 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

To be fair, when GW tried to be creative with marines, there was a revolt lol

 

23 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

This, 100x this.

 

GW didn't try to be creative with Marines, they tried to take what was there and change it juuuust enough they felt they could sell it to us as a new thing instead of just an update/rescale of the old thing and thereby avoid giving us the choice to continue with our old ones if we wanted to. That's cynicism, not creativity. Things that are either genuinely new unit types/roles or faithful updates have typically been well received. Things that are a bit more "you can copy my homework just don't make it obvious", less so.

 

There is plenty of scope, even within just the arena of Space Marines, to be creative instead of re-hashing the same thing over again every 6-9 years. Give some support to the subfactions that aren't already brimming with their own unique kits. Give us new stuff for the likes of the White Scars or Salamanders, the Word Bearers or Iron Warriors. The Nemesis Claw is a step in the right direction, but it needs backing up with a Night Lords specific character, at least. Then do the same for every Legion and First Founding Chapter that doesn't already have them. Then do the same for the likes of the Crimson Fists and Red Corsairs. Then do the same for the orphaned Forgeworld chapters like the Raptors or Minotaurs, or bring the Blood Ravens fully into the fold instead of being just an afterthought tie in from a now-dead game franchise. If you wanted to go from scratch, raise up either a new chapter or one from the lore with no model support (Emperor's Spears would be a prime example) and build something with them.

 

It's hard to imagine that the fanbase at large would take issue with any of the above as compared to being sold the same thing they already own with a new name and longer bolter.

[MoriyaSchism]

28 minutes ago, Zoatibix said:

The nihlus rift and Primaris seemed to be a way of having their cake and eating it.

 

And let’s not forget all the ‘true scale marine’ projects folks posted on places like Warseer.

 

Primaris just seem soulless to me, at any rate, but I’m not lover of Marines anyway.

 

I know this is beating a dead horse, but what the Primaris did was remove all variety from the basic space marine infantry kits. Compare the Primaris Intercessors to the redone Cadians and Chaos Space Marines. They have a variety of different helmet styles and accessories while Primaris Intercessors and Infiltrators all come with 10 of the same helmet along with zero variety in chest plate other than the Imperialis. When the Primaris range was still fresh the first time we saw an Aquila chestplate was on a limited edition model. I love Space Marines but the Primaris are just not my thing because the Mk4 maximus helmet was always my least favourite helmet. The only thing that really got me to buy into the Primaris was the scale and the fact I have a massive original Space Marine bits box to make what I want with the Primaris bodies.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by MoriyaSchism

[Noserenda]

Primaris are just a space marine reboot that they wanted to explain in universe rather than tactical squads just being taller now. They bodged that pretty hard, but seemingly things levelled out in the end. People are still being weeeirdly tribal about it though. (Nothing specific in this thread but spotted some truly bizarre Primaris based hate for Asmodai earlier for example)

[Orange Knight]

11 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Primaris are just a space marine reboot that they wanted to explain in universe rather than tactical squads just being taller now. They bodged that pretty hard, but seemingly things levelled out in the end. People are still being weeeirdly tribal about it though. (Nothing specific in this thread but spotted some truly bizarre Primaris based hate for Asmodai earlier for example)

 

Whilst I agree that the warhammer community lore drops and initial information were a bit of a dud, the deeper lore that has come out of Black Library novels and the stories that have been written about the Primaris have led to some of the most exciting drama and intrigue in the setting.

 

Of course, we can't expect every hobbyist to stay on top of all the novels as they consume significant resources in terms of time and cost all by themselves. 

 

11 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

 

I know this is beating a dead horse, but what the Primaris did was remove all variety from the basic space marine infantry kits. Compare the Primaris Intercessors to the redone Cadians and Chaos Space Marines. They have a variety of different helmet styles and accessories while Primaris Intercessors and Infiltrators all come with 10 of the same helmet along with zero variety in chest plate other than the Imperialis. When the Primaris range was still fresh the first time we saw an Aquila chestplate was on a limited edition model. I love Space Marines but the Primaris are just not my thing because the Mk4 maximus helmet was always my least favourite helmet. The only thing that really got me to buy into the Primaris was the scale and the fact I have a massive original Space Marine bits box to make what I want with the Primaris bodies.

 

 

 

One big perk of the Primaris is that they led to a stronger distinction and separation between loyalist and traitor Marines.

 

Visually the two ranges are now a lot more disparate and outwardly apparent, even if historical commonality can be inferred.

 

One range is clean and high tech, with a stronger emphasis on sci-fi vehicles and weapons. The other range is baroque and ancient.

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Whilst I agree that the warhammer community lore drops and initial information were a bit of a dud, the deeper lore that has come out of Black Library novels and the stories that have been written about the Primaris have led to some of the most exciting drama and intrigue in the setting.

 

Of course, we can't expect every hobbyist to stay on top of all the novels as they consume significant resources in terms of time and cost all by themselves. 

Which stories please?

[MoriyaSchism]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

One big perk of the Primaris is that they led to a stronger distinction and separation between loyalist and traitor Marines.

 

Visually the two ranges are now a lot more disparate and outwardly apparent, even if historical commonality can be inferred.

 

One range is clean and high tech, with a stronger emphasis on sci-fi vehicles and weapons. The other range is baroque and ancient.

 

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this because the three basic infantry kits from the 7th edition era covered the clean sci-fi soldier aesthetic and chaos marines already had a distinct silhouette. Only place this argument would apply to are the shared vehicles like the Predator, Rhino and Land Raider. Having flying tanks isn't much of a comfort when every infantry kit I buy comes with absolutely zero variety and one day I'm going to run out of beakies and mk7s.

[Zoatibix]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

One big perk of the Primaris is that they led to a stronger distinction and separation between loyalist and traitor Marines.

 

Visually the two ranges are now a lot more disparate and outwardly apparent, even if historical commonality can be inferred.

 

One range is clean and high tech, with a stronger emphasis on sci-fi vehicles and weapons. The other range is baroque and ancient.

 

I have wondered if that and The Thing We Absolutely Not Start As A Topic were part of GW wanting to put more space between Loyalist Marines, Traitor Bros and Sisters of Battle.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Zoatibix
Oopsie

[Orange Knight]

6 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Which stories please?

 

Cawl: The Great Work

Genefather

Darkness on the Blood 

 

Just off the top of my head

[Wispy]

People complain about creativity but the clean, gubbin free models of Primaris has enabled my creativity more than anything before it. They're a blank slate that I can overlay character and theme on top of by mixing kits and transposing desired iconography onto.

[Aarik]

2 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

I know this is beating a dead horse, but what the Primaris did was remove all variety from the basic space marine infantry kits. Compare the Primaris Intercessors to the redone Cadians and Chaos Space Marines. They have a variety of different helmet styles and accessories while Primaris Intercessors and Infiltrators all come with 10 of the same helmet along with zero variety in chest plate other than the Imperialis.

 

I had a thought about this recently.  I wonder if the move to identical chest aquillas on the Primaris was (partially?) the result of the new kits all having the chest plate tied to a specific pair of legs/pose because of the new way the sprues are cut.  With the models being assembled like that, any variant chest plates would be limited to the one pose they are compatible with --absent some exacto knife surgery -- and perhaps GW thought that would stick out too much.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Wispy said:

People complain about creativity but the clean, gubbin free models of Primaris has enabled my creativity more than anything before it. They're a blank slate that I can overlay character and theme on top of by mixing kits and transposing desired iconography onto.

Yes you can add as much bling or as little bling as you like, you can also grab bits from various other kits and sources just like we have always done.

 

I’ve always preferred my marines a bit cleaner, always mixing chapter specific kits with regular ones to tone them down a bit, similarly whilst I liked the sternguard kit, I would try and reduce their bling. For primaris I can add bling where I like and there’s enough variety in kits now I can draw on other places as desired (for example, a bunch of my intercessor sergeant use black Templar crusader squad bits for sergeants, coupled with various bits from other squads. I do subtle green stuff things here and there too and I’m generally happy with where that leaves me

34 minutes ago, Aarik said:

 

I had a thought about this recently.  I wonder if the move to identical chest aquillas on the Primaris was (partially?) the result of the new kits all having the chest plate tied to a specific pair of legs/pose because of the new way the sprues are cut.  With the models being assembled like that, any variant chest plates would be limited to the one pose they are compatible with --absent some exacto knife surgery -- and perhaps GW thought that would stick out too much.

Sternguard have a few variant torsos, they literally do it by providing multiple for particular poses in the kit though

[MegaVolt87]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Whilst I agree that the warhammer community lore drops and initial information were a bit of a dud, the deeper lore that has come out of Black Library novels and the stories that have been written about the Primaris have led to some of the most exciting drama and intrigue in the setting.

 

Of course, we can't expect every hobbyist to stay on top of all the novels as they consume significant resources in terms of time and cost all by themselves. 

 

Its difficult to get invested in the lore if you don't like the models. I have the majority of HH related publications and a large backlog of HH mini's- because I like the mini's. Something is only a chore/ expense if you don't enjoy it. 

[MoriyaSchism]

5 hours ago, Aarik said:

I had a thought about this recently.  I wonder if the move to identical chest aquillas on the Primaris was (partially?) the result of the new kits all having the chest plate tied to a specific pair of legs/pose because of the new way the sprues are cut.  With the models being assembled like that, any variant chest plates would be limited to the one pose they are compatible with --absent some exacto knife surgery -- and perhaps GW thought that would stick out too much.

Yeah, I thought about that too but that doesn't really excuse the lack of other parts and the use of the same helmet or backpack style for all 10 marines.
 

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Sternguard have a few variant torsos, they literally do it by providing multiple for particular poses in the kit though

In hindsight it would be nice if the space taken by the ridiculous bolt rifle variants they ended up removing from the game was repurposed to hold a few chest plate options.

 

5 hours ago, Wispy said:

People complain about creativity but the clean, gubbin free models of Primaris has enabled my creativity more than anything before it. They're a blank slate that I can overlay character and theme on top of by mixing kits and transposing desired iconography onto.

The older kits were clean too and using bits to make what I want out of Primaris Marines is what I'm doing already, but it all depends on parts that will eventually be discontinued by GW because the base Primaris kit doesn't provide what I like about Space Marines. Pardon the really WIP shot but it's part of something I'm working on before I start my project log thread. All the issues I have can be easily resolved by GW releasing a space marine upgrade set that isn't 90% shoulder pad.

 

I'm waiting for fresh Milliput to start cutting off the primaris ball joint things off the legs and working on the chest tubes. The empty areas on the belt will be occupied by a holster and some magazine pouches.

[Matcap86]

1 hour ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Yeah, I thought about that too but that doesn't really excuse the lack of other parts and the use of the same helmet or backpack style for all 10 marines.
 

In hindsight it would be nice if the space taken by the ridiculous bolt rifle variants they ended up removing from the game was repurposed to hold a few chest plate options.

 

The older kits were clean too and using bits to make what I want out of Primaris Marines is what I'm doing already, but it all depends on parts that will eventually be discontinued by GW because the base Primaris kit doesn't provide what I like about Space Marines. Pardon the really WIP shot but it's part of something I'm working on before I start my project log thread. All the issues I have can be easily resolved by GW releasing a space marine upgrade set that isn't 90% shoulder pad.

 

I'm waiting for fresh Milliput to start cutting off the primaris ball joint things off the legs and working on the chest tubes. The empty areas on the belt will be occupied by a holster and some magazine pouches.

 

This is the way. I almost think the amount of people using mk 6 and 7 pieces to convert primaris to bigger scale old marines (me included) outnumbers the amount of people actually just using primaris.

 

Based apropos of absolutely nothing but my gut feeling  of course.

[Gamiel]

10 hours ago, Halandaar said:

bring the Blood Ravens fully into the fold instead of being just an afterthought tie in from a now-dead game franchise.

They have had two Index Astartes articles (the last one from 2019), they appeared in the Deathwatch RPG as Chapter given a many pages presentation and rules, they have had their own Black Library trilogy, you could buy their chapter-master from Forge World. That's more, much more, then most Chapters. How are they not fully in the fold?

 

---‐---

 

Also, with all the negatively here would I like to ad that I like the Primaris, the way they were introduced and the stories (and story possibilities) it creates. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Gamiel

[Halandaar]

I guess people are determined to argue about Primaris in every single thread for the rest of time huh?

 

My point was not that Primaris are bad, my point was that there wasn't any need to force Intercessors as a separate concept instead of just making it a MkX replacement of the Tactical Squad, or making Hellblasters, Desolators and Eradicators instead of a single MkX Devastator Squad. Taking a single optional loadout from an existing unit and trying to spin that as a standalone kit doesn't strike me as being particularly creative.

 

On the other hand, things like Aggressors, Inceptors and Suppressors all feel like they're extending the range by adding new functions and roles to the army. I don't think it's unreasonable to want more of that.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Gamiel said:

They have had two Index Astartes articles (the last one from 2019), they appeared in the Deathwatch RPG as Chapter given a many pages presentation and rules, they have had their own Black Library trilogy, you could buy their chapter-master from Forge World. That's more, much more, then most Chapters. How are they not fully in the fold?

 

Every post I've made has been about the model range, which for Blood Ravens amounts to the Librarian in Kill Team Cassius. Angelos is discontinued, much like the characters from the Forgeworld chapters I also mentioned.

[Gamiel]

1 minute ago, Halandaar said:

Every post I've made has been about the model range, which for Blood Ravens amounts to the Librarian in Kill Team Cassius. Angelos is discontinued, much like the characters from the Forgeworld chapters I also mentioned.

But, by that standard is not most or less all successor Chapters (beside the BT) not in the fold? Why should the BR be treated differently from the rest of them? Or do I misunderstand your point?

[Xenith]

=][= This is not the place for the Primaris debate, we have thnkfully already moved on, but let's keep discussion off that ant hill =][=

 

35 minutes ago, Gamiel said:

But, by that standard is not most or less all successor Chapters (beside the BT) not in the fold? Why should the BR be treated differently from the rest of them? Or do I misunderstand your point?

 

I think you're misunderstanding:

Quote

 Then do the same for every Legion and First Founding Chapter that doesn't already have them. Then do the same for the likes of the Crimson Fists and Red Corsairs. Then do the same for the orphaned Forgeworld chapters like the Raptors or Minotaurs, or bring the Blood Ravens fully into the fold instead of being just an afterthought

 

Halandaar is saying GW should expand model support for many popular successor chapters. Crimson fists and red corsairs have some mode/character support. So do some of the FW chapters, and many more at least had rules support. 

[Mogger351]

15 minutes ago, Xenith said:

=][= This is not the place for the Primaris debate, we have thnkfully already moved on, but let's keep discussion off that ant hill =][=

 

 

I think you're misunderstanding:

 

Halandaar is saying GW should expand model support for many popular successor chapters. Crimson fists and red corsairs have some mode/character support. So do some of the FW chapters, and many more at least had rules support. 

I said the same in the DA thread, fewer unique stuff for the big chapters please and throw a bone to the "vanilla" chapters who have simply less stuff by default now.