The Horus Heresy Horus Heresy: The Battle for Beta-Garmon

[tinpact]

Clearly the intended interpretation is that a Night Lords dreadnought can charge, but only if it's in a transport.

[MARK0SIAN]

29 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

The rules look great, and I do feel goonhammer misrepresented the nature of the caution!

 

 

Honestly they look fun :) just requiring good communication between players, and maybe yes, markers!

I’m not sure it’s fair to accuse them of misrepresenting the nature of the caution. The exact text from Goonhammer reads:

 

“these rules don’t seem playable. Oddly, the designers seem to think the same, so they’ve given us a big note at the start of this section warning us not to use these rules in a competitive environment or when time is a factor. Time is a factor at narrative events and even club nights, assuming you get chucked out at some point, so for me this pretty much rules out the army.”

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-review-the-battle-of-beta-garmon/

None of that warning stops them necessarily being fun but the warning about time taken has been represented accurately. Most games will have some sort of time limit, even in a casual environment. If the rules can only be used when you’ve got endless time to play then for a lot of people they’ll be effectively useless.

 

Plus you’ve still got the other criticisms such as being able to switch tactics at will to disregard your negative traits. 
 

Again, none of this stops these rules necessarily being fun but the concerns and criticisms seem legitimate to me.

[Waaagh?]

Meh, it's Goonhammer they make mistakes in their articles constantly. 

[Fire Golem]

24 minutes ago, Waaagh? said:

Meh, it's Goonhammer they make mistakes in their articles constantly. 

Probably not maliciously and intentionally, though. And it wasn’t even a mistake in this case.

[lansalt]

16 hours ago, lansalt said:

The Shattered legions rules have been leaked: https://imgur.com/a/LgsdWVH

And here are the Legiones Auxilia: https://imgur.com/a/HX7zvI2

[jaxom]

My thoughts now that had time to let them stews:

1. The overall Shattered Legion rules work, but they are not elegant (to use an analogy: they're turning the ladder rather than the light bulb).
2. The focus on fine-grained narrative is a positive and a negative. If someone leans into gaming the system for advantage then it detracts from the overall narrative experience of getting to fight against a Shattered Legion force.
3. The way majority and minority work at each phase increases analysis-paralysis effect in a way I've never seen in a GW rule set before.
4. I'm curious if there was play testing done for games above 1,000 points. The analysis-paralysis for a 3,000 point game boggles my mind.
5. The individual Shattered Legion rules (major and minor benefits, flaws) are a mixed bag in how they're presented mechanically. Most apply to units as a whole, but some only apply to Legion-specific models in the unit. Some of the rules only seem to make sense in the context of Infantry and/or Cavalry units.
   
    

7 hours ago, Doobles57 said:

It's says you're required to react if you have reactions available. So the first unit it's triggered on will have to react. Assuming you only have 1 reaction available in that phase the rest can't/won't be forced to react. 

Okay, that works for most reactions, but I'm still not sure how it would work for Reactions with can trigger on multiple units at once.

[Gorgoff]

I think the shattered Legion rules for each Legion would have been great if that were the rules the legions in general had with the exception of DA because those suck. 

 

Anyway I think Shattered Legions rules sounds fun and will be easy to handle once one had some games under their belt. 

 

40 minutes ago, lansalt said:

And here are the Legiones Auxilia: https://imgur.com/a/HX7zvI2

Noice, thx.

 

All in all they look nice and nothing crazy good or bad although DG seems a little bit lacking.

If Solar Auxilia hadn't such bad rules I would be tempted to use them now.

But as is I don't see a reason to take them apart from cool miniatures. They just don't bring a lot to the table the legions not already have. 

[Petitioner's City]

6 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I’m not sure it’s fair to accuse them of misrepresenting the nature of the caution. The exact text from Goonhammer reads:

 

“these rules don’t seem playable. Oddly, the designers seem to think the same, so they’ve given us a big note at the start of this section warning us not to use these rules in a competitive environment or when time is a factor. Time is a factor at narrative events and even club nights, assuming you get chucked out at some point, so for me this pretty much rules out the army.”

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-review-the-battle-of-beta-garmon/

None of that warning stops them necessarily being fun but the warning about time taken has been represented accurately. Most games will have some sort of time limit, even in a casual environment. If the rules can only be used when you’ve got endless time to play then for a lot of people they’ll be effectively useless.

 

Plus you’ve still got the other criticisms such as being able to switch tactics at will to disregard your negative traits. 
 

Again, none of this stops these rules necessarily being fun but the concerns and criticisms seem legitimate to me.

 

I think the misrepresentation is there, at the start of what you quoted from GH:

 

Quote

"[...] these rules don’t seem playable. Oddly, the designers seem to think the same [...]"

 

That's what I mean - how they frame it is deliberately presenting something as not what it is, when in truth the designers spend four pages talking about how to play them, which actually isn't that hard. I'm really curious if GH tried the rules out in any real depth, or across multiple games? 

Edited March 28 by Petitioner's City

[ISBEAR]

Command squad article is out. That means only new thing missing from the book is Little Horus

[lansalt]

8 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

I'm really curious if GH tried the rules out in any real depth, or across multiple games? 

I wonder if GW did it, because those rules seem clunky as hell outside of small point games. Like something out of 2nd ed. instead of being designed for HH 3000pt games.
IMO, Shattered Legions should have been a distinct SAL/IH/RG combo, and then create new separate rules for other unconventional but fluffy forces ("Armies of Renown") like Shadow Crusaders, Defenders of Terra... etc.

[Petitioner's City]

20 minutes ago, lansalt said:

IMO, Shattered Legions should have been a distinct SAL/IH/RG combo, and then create new separate rules for other unconventional but fluffy forces ("Armies of Renown") like Shadow Crusaders, Defenders of Terra... etc.

 

But that's also not what they were in Retribution either - it's better to let us be creative, not box us into a set form. That's always been the charm of heresy, and it's been disappointing when that hasn't occurred.

Edited March 28 by Petitioner's City

[lansalt]

I already disliked Retribution's rules for the same reason. It's fine to allow creativity but not at the price of clunky or unfluffy rules. Some limits are necessary to produce creative stuff that stills fits the setting.

The IH/SAL/RG Shattered Legions were special for their rag tag and mixed nature. There's already normal allied detachments for 99% of other cases in the fluff.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

I think the misrepresentation is there, at the start of what you quoted from GH:
 

"these rules don’t seem playable. Oddly, the designers seem to think the same"

 

That's what I mean - how they frame it is deliberately presenting something as not what it is, when in truth the designers spend four pages talking about how to play them, which actually isn't that hard. I'm really curious if GH tried the rules out in any real depth, or across multiple games? 

 

I can't speak for @Mandragola, but I'd say the rules don't seem playable outside of pre-set games. They're not playable in the context up walking into a game's night to see who else is around for a game or walking into a normal weekend narrative event. I feel comfortable saying that makes up a not-insignificant number of players' situations.

 

Hard vs easy rules is subjective to a person, but we can objectively say the Shattered Legion rules are clunky (again, I think they work, they're just really inelegant). The fact it takes four pages of examples to explain the core mechanic of the army puts the issue front and center. Cognitive load is a serious factor in game design and the Shattered Legion mechanics are consuming more than they should.

 

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

I wonder if GW did it, because those rules seem clunky as hell outside of small point games. Like something out of 2nd ed. instead of being designed for HH 3000pt games.
IMO, Shattered Legions should have been a distinct SAL/IH/RG combo, and then create new separate rules for other unconventional but fluffy forces ("Armies of Renown") like Shadow Crusaders, Defenders of Terra... etc.

 

100% agree that it reads like a rule for a 3-4 squad recon-in-force game. Ironically, that fits really well with a lot of the Black Library Shattered Legion stories, but not with the big Shattered Legion battles from Retribution. EDIT: nor with the expectation of 2,500 - 3,000 point games as standard. /EDIT

 

1 hour ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

But that's also not what they were in Retribution either - it's better to let us be creative, not box us into a set form. That's always been the charm of heresy, and it's been disappointing when that hasn't occurred.

 

100% agree.

 

51 minutes ago, lansalt said:

I already disliked Retribution's rules for the same reason. It's fine to allow creativity but not at the price of clunky or unfluffy rules. Some limits are necessary to produce creative stuff that stills fits the setting.

The IH/SAL/RG Shattered Legions were special for their rag tag and mixed nature. There's already normal allied detachments for 99% of other cases in the fluff.

The rules didn't have to be clunky. Here's what I would recommend:

1. You must have at least one HQ per legion your using (with up to three legions, maximum); one HQ of each chosen legion.
2. Each HQ choice has the Heroic Trait and Major Trait for their legion.
3. You must have at least one non-HQ, non-dedicated transport unit per legion you are using.
4. Non-legion specific squads (e.g. Tactical, Assault, Support) must contain as even a mix of legionaries as possible. The sergeant's legion determines which legion the squad counts as for the purpose of number 3.
5. You can take 1 legion specific squad (e.g. Mor Deythan, Pyroclasts, Immortals, Inner Circle Cenobites, Justaerin) per 1000 points. 
6. Each unit gains the Minor Trait and Flaw for each legionary's legion  (e.g. a unit containing models representing two legions would have two Minor Traits and two Flaws). Minor Traits and Minor Flaws are always active and affect the entire unit.
   1. Some minor traits and flaws need to be reexamined to make sure they interact with the rest of the rules and all unit types properly. That's a separate topic.
7. At the beginning of the turn, if a unit is within 6" of an HQ, the unit gains the Major Trait if they share the same legion with the HQ or ignores the Flaw of the HQ's legion if the unit is of a different legion. This lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
   
   Most the of cognitive load is in the list design and beginning of turns. Cognitive load can be further decreased by tokens: tokens for Major Trait being active and  two-sided tokens for Minor Trait+Flaw active and the other side just Minor Trait active.

 

 

Edited March 28 by jaxom

[Marshal Rohr]

I really don’t think you’ll need tokens. Unless you’re trying to play for cheese you can pick the legions you want the traits for and do 8/8/2 or 8/6/6 or 1/1/1 so you always get to pick the one you like most to start the game and then remove models from there. Every legion has its own distinct color scheme, even the ones that are ostensibly the same color, and they all have legion badges on the shoulder. Unless you are throwing lore out the window or trying to confuse you opponent by painting Dark Angels, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard the same shade of black with none of the legion specific complementary colors every single person over the age of five can look at ten objects of different colors and determine which color has the highest number of objects. After a handful of games you’ll know that if you take out all of your Salamanders first, you keep your Raven Guard and Iron Hand desired ability and you’ll know which situation the squad needs to lose more of Ravens to keep Hands so you can pull off whatever you want to do the next round. The way they did this isn’t awesome, and it’s inelegant, and immediately everyone here had a simpler way to implement the traits but it’s certainly not unplayable. It doesn’t make it not fun, unless the idea of being bothered to count drives you insane. If that’s the case the shooting phase should make the entire game unplayable. 

[Doobles57]

26 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I really don’t think you’ll need tokens. Unless you’re trying to play for cheese you can pick the legions you want the traits for and do 8/8/2 or 8/6/6 or 1/1/1 so you always get to pick the one you like most to start the game and then remove models from there. Every legion has its own distinct color scheme, even the ones that are ostensibly the same color, and they all have legion badges on the shoulder. Unless you are throwing lore out the window or trying to confuse you opponent by painting Dark Angels, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard the same shade of black with none of the legion specific complementary colors every single person over the age of five can look at ten objects of different colors and determine which color has the highest number of objects. After a handful of games you’ll know that if you take out all of your Salamanders first, you keep your Raven Guard and Iron Hand desired ability and you’ll know which situation the squad needs to lose more of Ravens to keep Hands so you can pull off whatever you want to do the next round. The way they did this isn’t awesome, and it’s inelegant, and immediately everyone here had a simpler way to implement the traits but it’s certainly not unplayable. It doesn’t make it not fun, unless the idea of being bothered to count drives you insane. If that’s the case the shooting phase should make the entire game unplayable. 

I think that you're right in that you'll pick up the rules after a few games and it'll start to be more intuitive to use them (assuming you're sticking to the same legions but whatever). The issue is more for your opponent in my eyes, since unless you're playing against Shattered Legions often (which seems unlikely at this point) you won't have that knowledge. 

 

- So what special rules does that unit have?

It has Major Benefit A, Minor Benefit B and Flaw B

 

- OK cool I'll shoot them with these guys.

Ah you've killed 3 of them. I'll take this particular combo of models off.

 

- Right now I'm going to charge them.

Ok, well now they have 3 different special rules. Major Benefit B, Minor Benefit C and Flaw C

 

- OK......fine. I've killed a couple.

Ah good job. I've taken this particular pair off.

Now it's my turn. That unit now has 3 completely different special rules again! Major Benefit C, Minor Benefit A and Flaw A. 

 

>> Repeat for every unit.

 

Extreme example but if you're not expecting it, it's going to be tiresome to play against. 

 

On the other hand, if you ARE expecting it, then I can see it being a really fun challenge. Albeit a slightly more time consuming one.

[Waaagh?]

3 hours ago, ISBEAR said:

Command squad article is out. That means only new thing missing from the book is Little Horus

 

Do we know yet if there's a pic of his model in the book? If so likely he will be previewed next Thurs before the book is released.

[Mandragola]

24 minutes ago, Waaagh? said:

 

Do we know yet if there's a pic of his model in the book? If so likely he will be previewed next Thurs before the book is released.

There’s no picture of little Horus. Theres also none of this command squad they’ve just previewed though, so it doesn’t necessarily mean that Aximand is a long way off. 

[The Scorpion]

5 hours ago, ISBEAR said:

Command squad article is out. That means only new thing missing from the book is Little Horus

There is artwork of Aximand depicting his armor as that of the "default" Sons of Horus praetor, probably from Horus: Heresy Legions

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/6/65/HHL_Horus_Aximand.png

I wonder how GeeDubs will remake him for him to look unique. Will he come with or without the Chogorisian shave that Hibou gave him?

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

11 minutes ago, The Scorpion said:

There is artwork of Aximand depicting his armor as that of the "default" Sons of Horus praetor, probably from Horus: Heresy Legions

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/6/65/HHL_Horus_Aximand.png

I wonder how GeeDubs will remake him for him to look unique. Will he come with or without the Chogorisian shave that Hibou gave him?

I can't see the pic... am I the only one?

[Cleon]

Personally I don't like the re-selection mechanic - it should be a static set per unit, only re-assessed on casualties.

[Nephaston]

10 hours ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

I can't see the pic... am I the only one?

Can't see it either but it's probably this one.

Edited March 29 by Nephaston
formatting

[SkimaskMohawk]

10 hours ago, Doobles57 said:

I think that you're right in that you'll pick up the rules after a few games and it'll start to be more intuitive to use them (assuming you're sticking to the same legions but whatever). The issue is more for your opponent in my eyes, since unless you're playing against Shattered Legions often (which seems unlikely at this point) you won't have that knowledge. 

 

- So what special rules does that unit have?

It has Major Benefit A, Minor Benefit B and Flaw B

 

- OK cool I'll shoot them with these guys.

Ah you've killed 3 of them. I'll take this particular combo of models off.

 

- Right now I'm going to charge them.

Ok, well now they have 3 different special rules. Major Benefit B, Minor Benefit C and Flaw C

 

- OK......fine. I've killed a couple.

Ah good job. I've taken this particular pair off.

Now it's my turn. That unit now has 3 completely different special rules again! Major Benefit C, Minor Benefit A and Flaw A. 

 

>> Repeat for every unit.

 

Extreme example but if you're not expecting it, it's going to be tiresome to play against. 

 

On the other hand, if you ARE expecting it, then I can see it being a really fun challenge. Albeit a slightly more time consuming one.

 

Ya, markers in this case are mainly for the opponent to help them remember what each units rules combos are and ease the cognitive load on how to best interact with a given unit. Kinda a good courtesy when playing with this new and extremely variable set of special rules, something that's far from new and has been done for far less complex sets of rules (spells in fantasy/old world/aos/6th and 7th 40k, space marine doctrines in 6th/8th/9th/10th, tau marker lights until 10th, ad mech abilities in 9th).

 

Like, the design note says the rules can be prone to causing confusion and are more complex than any other rule. The takes that shattered legions are pickup game friendly AND that you shouldn't need markers/tokens are kinda...odd. 

[Plaguecaster]

I haven’t seen anything about it yet but do we will the black shield army list in the book be a full one or will we still need the traitor or loyalist books to play them 

quite sad the book has been delayed here in NZ as really want to get my hands on it badly so I can play black shields

Edited March 29 by Plaguecaster

[Mandragola]

7 minutes ago, Plaguecaster said:

I haven’t seen anything about it yet but do we will the black shield army list in the book be a full one or will we still need the traitor or loyalist books to play them 

quite sad the book has been delayed here in NZ as really want to get my hands on it badly so I can play black shields

You still need either the traitor or loyalist Astartes book. I’m pretty sure either would do as you don’t use much of the legion-specific stuff. There is an oath that lets you use a legion’s equipment so for that you’d need whichever book that gear was in. 
 

Essentially though the blackshield rules are an add-on for the ebook list. They are the equivalent of the rules for the blood angels or sons of Horus but you use all the same base units. 
 

In the book they suggest the list is intended to be used as small-ish allied contingents. Actually I can’t see why you couldn’t make a full 3k list of them if you wanted, though doing that with the more extreme lists would require a lot of work on the models.
 

They actually give you warlord traits and an advanced reaction, which is ideal for running a primary detachment. They don’t do that for shattered legion, which can *only* be run as a line, primary detachment. 

[Razorblade]

Has anyone seen the full Blackshield rules yet?