New Warhammer 40,000 Edition announced!

[Lexington]

2 hours ago, Dudley Nightshade said:

This discussion goes back decades. Should the way an army plays on the table be better or worse because of the colour of paint used? If you adhere to the lore, then yes.

 

See, I'm not really convinced that this is true, or at least broadly true. Take our example du jour, the Blood Angels. Should they be naturally better in close combat than your average Ultramarine? I just don't see it. Sure, you see references to their peerless assault capabilities and etc., but they're also, y'know, Space Marines. They're all very strong and very fast and very, very good at disemboweling whatever happens to be in arm's reach. Careers at Black Library have been made by knowing and describing this fact in particularly visceral detail.

 

It's not even like the Blood Angels are organized around close combat. They're (mostly) a Codex Chapter! They have exactly as many dedicated assault units as the Ultramarines. Most Blood Angels slog it on foot and wield a Bolt Rifle while doing so. Not exactly a life of close combat. Heck, they even have, like Devastators and stuff. Or, they did, I guess. You know what I mean.

 

One can point to the Red Thirst, of course, but I don't think even that really translates to a bonus on the tabletop. If anything, it should just make them worse at not assaulting things. It's a curse, after all. So's the Black Rage, but that's why we have rules for the Death Company specifically. Those guys should definitely be a dab hand with a chainsword, but the average Sanguinian spends a lot of time trying to not be in the Death Company. That's probably the more important fact.

 

I think this translates out to a lot of other Chapters and sub-factions. Do the Salamanders have a predilection for flamers? Yeah, absolutely. Are they actually better at setting things on fire than other Space Marines? Probably not. Is an Evil Sunz biker actually better at what they do than a Deathskull? Not in a way that makes a lot of sense on the tabletop, really. They just like bikes and tend to use them more.

 

There's a lot of weak associations like this that have become expectations. Certainly they've not always been reflected in the rules. No one complained that Blood Angels couldn't punch as hard as a Heavy Bolter round on the charge until that happened one edition. Now it's their "thing," even though I'm pretty sure anyone would be at a bit of a loss to explain exactly why that should be.

Edited June 16 by Lexington

[Dudley Nightshade]

8 minutes ago, Lexington said:

 

See, I'm not really convinced that this is true, or at least broadly true. Take our example du jour, the Blood Angels. Should they be naturally better in close combat than your average Ultramarine? I just don't see it. Sure, you see references to their peerless assault capabilities and etc., but they're also, y'know, Space Marines. They're all very strong and very fast and very, very good at disemboweling whatever happens to be in arm's reach. Careers at Black Library have been made by knowing and describing this fact in particularly visceral detail.

<snip>

BA are, indeed, the example du jour, but as you point out, maybe not the best example. Maybe a better example would be, should you be able to take an all-Terminator army if you paint your marines yellow or blue? Going back far enough, the answer was no. (I'm not up enough on the new detachments to know if this is possible today.) If GW wants to allow such an army composition, though, they can allow it by detachment rather than by army rules.

 

I guess this was more what I wanted to communicate: detachments create some weird interactions with lore, but they allow more flexibility in army composition than army-wide rules.  Someone is going to lose out a little bit in their hobby enjoyment, but I understand why GW chose detachments. I'm not even saying the detachment system is right or wrong, but understandable, and seems like a good compromise.

[Evil Eye]

9 minutes ago, Lexington said:

[Snip]

I do see your point, though I will add the caveat that I think this is more an issue of the Flanderization* of many factions' specialities combined with the weird direction the game has gone in rather than them having a specialism at all. Blood Angels used to be a rare example of a Chapter that could take Assault Squads as Troops, which was a big deal back then even if by today's standards it feels like a big nothingburger with a side of who cares chips in so what sauce. In those days, Loyalists having Assault Marines as troops and access to stuff like the Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought was pretty divergent, even aside from the rules for them possibly going loopy pre-battle. Then 5th happened and they went from "Mostly Codex Compliant but with an assault focus (partially to compensate for the Flaw) and access to a few unique vehicles" to "Better at being berserkers than Berzerkers except they also have air-dropped Land Raiders and flying Dreadnoughts and OMG aren't they the coolest???" which was a damn shame (even if some of the stuff that came out of the book, notably Sanguinary Guard, the excellent Death Company kit and the concept of the Librarian Dreadnought, were kinda neat). Now we have the opposite problem- every Chapter can take Assault Marines as Battleline, the Furioso Dreadnought has been succeeded by the Chapter-agnostic Brutalis, and the Baal Predator is living on borrowed time (which sucks as it's really cool!), so for Blood Angels to not just be Ultramarines in red armour, they almost need to be Flanderized. Again this comes down to the pitiful customization options and inherently over-abstracted/excessively "gamey" rules, but it's worth noting.

 

Unfortunately short of a reversion to the older design philosophy I don't realistically know how you could fix that. It's not that it can't work, just not the way the rules are written at present.

 

 

*As opposed to Flandreization, which is where a character is replaced by an absurdly cute yet preposterously ancient vampire in a silly hat from a punishingly difficult Japanese shoot-em-up game series. Though now I think about it, depending on the character in question that could improve 40K a bit, also "Death Waltz" would be a great name for an individual Space Marine tank or weapon...

[Lexington]

3 minutes ago, Dudley Nightshade said:

BA are, indeed, the example du jour, but as you point out, maybe not the best example. Maybe a better example would be, should you be able to take an all-Terminator army if you paint your marines yellow or blue? Going back far enough, the answer was no. (I'm not up enough on the new detachments to know if this is possible today.) If GW wants to allow such an army composition, though, they can allow it by detachment rather than by army rules.

 

Definitely. This is actually where I think a "Detachments" system could work very well* - alternate army construction rules allowing players to field specialized forces that the ol' "Rule of Three" makes difficult-to-impossible. This would be especially handy for Space Marines, whose roster has become almost impossibly bloated over the last decade of Primaris-ification, and will remain so even with a lot of the cuts to Firstborn that we'll likely be seeing very soon. The current Detachments system sort of does this at times, of course, but it primarily showers bonuses and gimmicks on specific themed units for no real reason. It's like there's a ghost of 7th Ed's game-crippling Decurion/Demi-Company system floating around the Studio that GW just can't shake.

 

* The name would even make sense again!

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

Valrak rumour is landraider and 1 other unit (cant remember what yhe other is) will be the only non-legends firstborn model in 11th

[Dudley Nightshade]

@Evil Eye and @Lexington, it sounds like detachments are a good idea in theory, but currently messed up with no real fix in sight.

 

 

Edited June 16 by Dudley Nightshade
Editing to remove unnecessary bit about the state of my involvement with the game. Not relevant to current discussion.

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

Valrak rumour is landraider and 1 other unit (cant remember what yhe other is) will be the only non-legends firstborn model in 11th

Wasn't it one of the other tanks? Or am I misrembering things

[Karhedron]

28 minutes ago, Dudley Nightshade said:

@Evil Eye and @Lexington, it sounds like detachments are a good idea in theory, but currently messed up with no real fix in sight.

 

Sigh. This is partly why I haven't been keen to jump back into any GW games, even though we finally have FLGS support.

 

The counsel for the defense will now make the case! 

 

I actually quite like the Detachment system and I will explain why. From 5th - 7th editions, Blood Angels and Space Wolves etc were fully stand-alone codices with their own rules and points. This was OK in theory but led to problems every time codex marines got an errata or a new unit, divergent armies would ask "Why don't we get that?". For years there was a peculiar glitch that Codex Marine storm shields gave a 3+ Invulnerable save while everyone else got stuck with a 4+. Despite the large numbers of common units, the armies weren't kept in sync properly.

 

8th and 9th editions introduced a common Space Marine codex with supplements for other Chapters which was a good start in many ways as it meant that errata to the main Space Marine army list automatically filtered through to divergent chapters. The on top of this they added layers of specialisations. This was where cracks started to show as Blood Angels got the Special Rules and units for being Blood Angels on top of the ones for being Space Marines. This led to the (not entirely inaccurate) accusation that divergent Chapters were now Marines+1 since they had everything Marines had and more stuff on top (extra rules, upgrades and stratagems).

 

10th edition switched to the current system of Detachments and I honestly think it is the best of the various systems that have been tried. Each Detachment gets its own special rules, Enhancements and Stratagems on top of being basic Marines but the "one-in, one-out" design means that Blood Angels are neither better nor worse than any other Chapter, they are just different. The power balance between different Detachments isn't perfect but GW have never gotten things entirely right (see the powerhouse of the Chaos 3.5E codex).

 

Some people claim Blood Angels get better assault squads than other Marines for no points increase and that is true. But it has also been true since 8th edition and at least now, every Detachment buffs one type of unit strongly or the whole army more modestly. This means that overall, Blood Angels are not more powerful than any other Space Marine faction. GW have also somewhat decoupled the Detachments from being chapter specific although not completely.

 

So I think Detachments are the fairest system GW have come up with to give specific Chapters flavourful rules without making them Marines+1. 

[HeadlessCross]

19 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Wasn't it one of the other tanks? Or am I misrembering things

I want to say it was the Vindicator?

[ZeroWolf]

5 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

I want to say it was the Vindicator?

That sounds about right, I watched his big rumour video yesterday but I was kinda in and out. Only thing I definitely caught was the rumour about the plastic warhound being revealed by the end of the year 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

People who care about good game design. 

 

 

Issue is not that BA tend to run assault and jump units. The issue arises if I can take those exact same units as another chapter and end up with significantly worse army. Yes, the issue is not so pressing with the current chapter agnostic detachments, as any chapter can take them, but then they also are a rather questionable chapter theming tool as they're not actually tied to chapters. 

 

Like how can you not see an issue with everyone paying the same points for their units, but some subfactions getting free bonuses for some units? It is blindingly obvious, that doing so messes up the balancing. If the unit is costed like it didn't have the bonus, it is undercosted if you have it, and if it is costed like you have it is overcosted if you don't have it. This is inescapable. 

 

And it is an issue with detachmets too. Like how SoB repentia are costed like they had bonuses of the penitent detachment, so no one uses them outside of it, as they are overcosted. But it would be nice to just be able to take some repentia in more balanced force without having to go all in. And GW has recognised the issue; the mix-and-match detachments are an attempted fix, and it can work if appropriate small detachemnts for given units exist. But it would be far easier and more elegant to just do away with the detachments, and give the units whatever rules they need to function as a default, and then appropriately cost them for it. 

Because everyone gets ‘free’ bonuses, just not the same bonuses.

 

as to your first response, another non-answer.

 

i don’t think it’s good game design to have every chapter play completely identically. In fact, the simple fact that hasn’t been a thing in like 40 years and the game has not only survived but had multiple eras where it thrived, would indicate subfaction special rules are the better way to design the game.

 

3 hours ago, Lexington said:

 

See, I'm not really convinced that this is true, or at least broadly true. Take our example du jour, the Blood Angels. Should they be naturally better in close combat than your average Ultramarine? I just don't see it. Sure, you see references to their peerless assault capabilities and etc., but they're also, y'know, Space Marines. They're all very strong and very fast and very, very good at disemboweling whatever happens to be in arm's reach. Careers at Black Library have been made by knowing and describing this fact in particularly visceral detail.

 

It's not even like the Blood Angels are organized around close combat. They're (mostly) a Codex Chapter! They have exactly as many dedicated assault units as the Ultramarines. Most Blood Angels slog it on foot and wield a Bolt Rifle while doing so. Not exactly a life of close combat. Heck, they even have, like Devastators and stuff. Or, they did, I guess. You know what I mean.

 

One can point to the Red Thirst, of course, but I don't think even that really translates to a bonus on the tabletop. If anything, it should just make them worse at not assaulting things. It's a curse, after all. So's the Black Rage, but that's why we have rules for the Death Company specifically. Those guys should definitely be a dab hand with a chainsword, but the average Sanguinian spends a lot of time trying to not be in the Death Company. That's probably the more important fact.

 

I think this translates out to a lot of other Chapters and sub-factions. Do the Salamanders have a predilection for flamers? Yeah, absolutely. Are they actually better at setting things on fire than other Space Marines? Probably not. Is an Evil Sunz biker actually better at what they do than a Deathskull? Not in a way that makes a lot of sense on the tabletop, really. They just like bikes and tend to use them more.

 

There's a lot of weak associations like this that have become expectations. Certainly they've not always been reflected in the rules. No one complained that Blood Angels couldn't punch as hard as a Heavy Bolter round on the charge until that happened one edition. Now it's their "thing," even though I'm pretty sure anyone would be at a bit of a loss to explain exactly why that should be.

Asking if BA should be better in melee than UM or IF, is like asking if a boxer should be better at punching than a wrestler, or even a karateka.

 

like we literally have real world examples of groups of people being better at certain things than others.

 

the US Army, navy, and coast guard all have a bunch of ships and boats, but only one is actually good at sinking other ships and projecting power ashore. 

[nodnol88]

He’s heard it’s the Rhino and Land Raider I believe, which aligns with the theory of those being redone and probably upscale. 

Just take the rest of the firstborn round the back of the shed with the 12 gauge and be done with it. 

 

Of all his rumors at the moment,  it’s the new Venerable Dread and LotD I want to be true. 
 

Edit: Originally said Contemptor and meant Venerable. Clarifying due to the responses below. 

Edited June 16 by nodnol88

[Crimson Longinus]

3 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

the new Contemptor 

 

Huh? I hadn't heard that... For HH, presumably?

[01RTB01]

4 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

He’s heard it’s the Rhino and Land Raider I believe, which aligns with the theory of those being redone and probably upscale. 

Just take the rest of the firstborn round the back of the shed with the 12 gauge and be done with it. 

 

Of all his rumors at the moment,  it’s the new Contemptor and LotD I want to be true. 

Veteran redemptor, not contemptor.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

4 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

 

Of all his rumors at the moment,  it’s the new Contemptor and LotD I want to be true. 

Plastic warhound and exodites for me. Those 3rd edition rumours can finally be put to rest 

[Evil Eye]

22 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

Just take the rest of the firstborn round the back of the shed with the 12 gauge and be done with it. 

 

Only if Suppressors go with them!

[Crimson Longinus]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Because everyone gets ‘free’ bonuses, just not the same bonuses.

 

But for different units! Thus causing having balanced point costs for thus units being impossible. How can you not get this? It is a mathematical inevitability.

 

 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

as to your first response, another non-answer.

 

i don’t think it’s good game design to have every chapter play completely identically. In fact, the simple fact that hasn’t been a thing in like 40 years and the game has not only survived but had multiple eras where it thrived, would indicate subfaction special rules are the better way to design the game.

 

And the game has been an unbalanced mess for most of its history. Detachments are not balanced with each other either, some are just flat out better, but at least they are lore agnostic and can be used by any subfaction, so it is a less serious issue.

 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Asking if BA should be better in melee than UM or IF, is like asking if a boxer should be better at punching than a wrestler, or even a karateka.

 

like we literally have real world examples of groups of people being better at certain things than others.

 

the US Army, navy, and coast guard all have a bunch of ships and boats, but only one is actually good at sinking other ships and projecting power ashore. 

 

But then in a balanced wargame, you need to have the point costs to reflect the actual capability! BA can have better assault marines than UM as long as they pay more points for them than the UM pay for theirs!

[Ahzek451]

Speaking of rumors, where are we at now regarding primarchs? It's been all over the map for awhile now, Russ, Vulkan, a Roboutte 2.0, Purturabo, Lorgar. What is the most current scuttlebutt for possible release this edition? 

Edited June 16 by Ahzek451

[mel_danes]

2 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Only if Suppressors go with them!

So maligned. 

As a unit they never found a purpose. I've got some, used them maybe twice. 

They can hop back behind the shed and wait for the turrets to catch up.

3 hours ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

Valrak rumour is landraider and 1 other unit (cant remember what yhe other is) will be the only non-legends firstborn model in 11th

Meaning most of those vehicle units go into my chaos army, with a bit of a paint touch up.

[ZeroWolf]

7 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Only if Suppressors go with them!

To be fair, the rumour is sending them to legends as well, which isn't really surprising to be honest.

[nodnol88]

33 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Huh? I hadn't heard that... For HH, presumably?

Had a brain fart, meant Venerable. Edited original post to save further blue-balling. 

[HeadlessCross]

17 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

But for different units! Thus causing having balanced point costs for thus units being impossible. How can you not get this? It is a mathematical inevitability.

 

 

 

And the game has been an unbalanced mess for most of its history. Detachments are not balanced with each other either, some are just flat out better, but at least they are lore agnostic and can be used by any subfaction, so it is a less serious issue.

 

 

But then in a balanced wargame, you need to have the point costs to reflect the actual capability! BA can have better assault marines than UM as long as they pay more points for them than the UM pay for theirs!

But should they have the best Assault Marines to begin with? I can argue that Iron Hands are just as angry as Blood Angels when they want to be. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

But for different units! Thus causing having balanced point costs for thus units being impossible. How can you not get this? It is a mathematical inevitability.

 

 

 

And the game has been an unbalanced mess for most of its history. Detachments are not balanced with each other either, some are just flat out better, but at least they are lore agnostic and can be used by any subfaction, so it is a less serious issue.

 

 

But then in a balanced wargame, you need to have the point costs to reflect the actual capability! BA can have better assault marines than UM as long as they pay more points for them than the UM pay for theirs!

Oh no things might not be perfectly balanced!

no game is perfectly balanced not chess nor even checkers.

Edited June 16 by Brother Tyler

[01RTB01]

22 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

But should they have the best Assault Marines to begin with? I can argue that Iron Hands are just as angry as Blood Angels when they want to be. 

 

You argue? Surely not. Please let's not keep going with this direction.

[Tastyfish]

49 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

Speaking of rumors, where are we at now regarding primarchs? It's been all over the map for awhile now, Russ, Vulkan, a Roboutte 2.0, Purturabo, Lorgar. What is the most current scuttlebutt for possible release this edition? 

 

Perturabo is the clear front runner, given how he's the only one with new artwork and 11th edition is going to be shifting focus across the warzones set up at the start and end of 10th ed - with these highlighted in the maps in the new combat patrol companion.

 

Bastior (the Fourth Tyrannic war, where Guilliman has been until now)

Armageddon (No explanation needed, though Calgar is here)

Pariah Nexus (the Necron civil war and Vashtorr's next plotline)

500 Worlds (Where the Lion is now)

Chalnath Expanse (5th Sphere Expansion, probably the first one with the Twinlance's proper introduction and the T'au book rumoured to be one of the early ones)

The Maelstrom (Dunno here, other than perhaps as 40K's 'Border Princes' region)

The Cadian Gate (the start of Perturabo's Infinite Citadel)

 

Rumours around Guilliman have got very confused, with there being potential models for the Heresy, Scouring and/or 40K to all get confused with each other.

Little chance of any other loyalists this edition, given we're not necessarily expecting the Lion and Guilliman to even meet until a few campaign books have been released.

 

With Armageddon and Operation Imperator in the launch set, that could give us a narrative supplement twice a year over the course of the edition to cover the updates in all those warzones, which seems kind of reasonable from a release model point of view.

 

That does mean that we're probably going to see Guilliman dealing with Bastior after releasing the Ultramarines to assist with Armageddon. Thus unlikely to leave immediately with things so close to Terra going so badly wrong. The Lion is going to then be swept up in whatever is going on in 500 Worlds where he'll have to make his decision regarding his brother's tendency towards building back up empires and have his show down with Titus. The meeting of the two will no doubt have to wait for the end narrative series and I can't see another loyalist being added to the mix before then.

Except perhaps, as GW said, as an IG tank.

 

Edited June 16 by Tastyfish