New Warhammer 40,000 Edition announced!

[nodnol88]

Vulkan would be probably the easiest to bring back sooner rather than later, what with the focus on Armageddon. “Fighting across Armageddon has woken the slumber of something buried deep…”. You get the picture. 

 

I wouldn’t mind an outside bet on Khan though. Tie it in the with rumoured Drukhari refresh.

 

I do selfishly hope the rumours of a Guilliman 2.0 are correct though. 
 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Crimson Longinus said:

But for different units! Thus causing having balanced point costs for thus units being impossible. How can you not get this? It is a mathematical inevitability.

 

The point is that it doesn't matter if Blood Angels have better assault units for the points. Iron Hands have the best tanks, Ravenguard get the best Phobos etc.

 

You are fixating on the absolute unit costs in a vacuum but that is not the most important thing. What matters is that the armies are balanced over all relative to each other.

[Tastyfish]

The Amazon show isn't likely to air until 2029 or later even if things go perfectly, with GW looking to build excitement around that as well but also not looking to disrupt the status quo at the same time (allowing the show to do that instead, alongside Abnett's Pandaemonium).

 

Guilliman returned in 2017 in 7th, The Lion in 2023 at the end of 9th. There's a chance someone else might come back at the end of 11th, but I wouldn't expect anything faster than that. We've also got whatever massive shake up is due with Pandaemonium and the Amazon series, which isn't assumed to be Primarch related as far as I understand it.

 

Entirely my own speculation, but I think we'll see Lorgar, pursued by what remains of Corax before we have a more conventional Primarch return. Perhaps around 2032, maybe a bit later. Vulkan might need to wait for a few more Armageddon sourcebooks, but he'd then be the one I'd expect to see after that. 

 

Russ and the Khan? Maybe GW's Diamond/Adamantium Jubilee or the 20th Edition of 40K in 2050/2053? That would also put it at roughly the Iron Man to End Game kind of distance from the release of the first Amazon show...

 

 

Edited June 16 by Tastyfish

[Crimson Longinus]

7 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

The point is that it doesn't matter if Blood Angels have better assault units for the points. Iron Hands have the best tanks, Ravenguard get the best Phobos etc.

 

You are fixating on the absolute unit costs in a vacuum but that is not the most important thing. What matters is that the armies are balanced over all relative to each other.

 

Yes it matters! This leads to flandersiation, where the chapters are forced to mainly use certain units or suck.  You should be able to run a BA tank army or Iron Hands assault army etc and not to suck. 

[Blindhamster]

Fundamentally, faction identity is a thing, it’s been built up over 4 decades at this point. Most factions have some nuance, but it’s still true that each one has a general specialty.

 

also, no, the iron hands aren’t as “angry” as the blood angels. to quote Sergeant Ancaeus in angels of death 

 

“you know nothing of rage”

 

@Crimson Longinus I think the point you’re missing is, most people enjoy playing the factions with their nuances, regardless of what is “best”, blood angels have had a bonus to strength (and initiative when it was a thing) when charging since 3rd edition, in all that time blood angels players have still used tactical squads? Have still used vehicles, have still used stuff like devastators or other shooty units.

 

part of the fun of it is that those things are surprisingly punchy when the situation means you want them to be. It fits the chapters lore and can be a lot of fun. 
 

we don’t necessarily care about bonuses to stealth, we will still use Phobos units or scouts, ours just hit a little harder, should it come up

 

 

 

Edited June 16 by Blindhamster

[ZeroWolf]

2 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

The Amazon show isn't likely to air until 2029 or later even if things go perfectly, with GW looking to build excitement around that as well but also not looking to disrupt the status quo at the same time (allowing the show to do that instead, alongside Abnett's Pandaemonium).

 

Guilliman returned in 2017 in 7th, The Lion in 2023 at the end of 9th. There's a chance someone else might come back at the end of 11th, but I wouldn't expect anything faster than that. We've also got whatever massive shake up is due with Pandaemonium and the Amazon series, which isn't assumed to be Primarch related as far as I understand it.

 

Entirely my own speculation, but I think we'll see Lorgar, pursued by what remains of Corax before we have a more conventional Primarch return. Perhaps around 2032, maybe a bit later. Vulkan might need to wait for a few more Armageddon sourcebooks, but he'd then be the one I'd expect to see after that. 

 

Russ and the Khan? Maybe GW's Diamond/Adamantium Jubilee or the 20th Edition of 40K in 2050/2053? That would also put it at roughly the Iron Man to End Game kind of distance from the release of the first Amazon show...

 

 

Given how popular space wolves are, I'd still put money down on Russ being next, followed by Dorn so that BT/IF have some fun. But it looks like loyalists only come back every two editions compared to the traitors coming back every edition. GW know that Primarchs print money so they won't be leaving that on the table for twenty years.

[Blindhamster]

In terms of new primarchs, I’m leaning toward Vulcan too. Though I agree it’s almost inevitable we see russ at some point

[Nephaston]

Clearly it's the headless horseless horseman; the 10th Prince of a dying empire Merrus Fannus to coincide with that alleged Legion of the Damned kill team.

[Blindhamster]

13 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Clearly it's the headless horseless horseman; the 10th Prince of a dying empire Merrus Fannus to coincide with that alleged Legion of the Damned kill team.

I think that’s the issue with ferrus, a bunch of people want to see him as a legion of the damned guy, because of that scene in master of mankind… but I feel like that would just doubly suck for the iron hands. Similar issue with people hoping for dorn for black Templars 

[Crimson Longinus]

Primarchs should stay dead. 

[Blindhamster]

8 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Primarchs should stay dead. 

True or not, that ship has sailed

[Lexington]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

like we literally have real world examples of groups of people being better at certain things than others.

 

the US Army, navy, and coast guard all have a bunch of ships and boats, but only one is actually good at sinking other ships and projecting power ashore. 

 

Sure, because that's their purpose. It's what they do. They are organizationally structured, equipped and trained to do that thing in a way that the others are not. The Blood Angels and Ultramarines are structured and equipped almost identically. Likely enough there's some training differences there, but I don't think there's much evidence that it's  so extreme that it'd be notable at 40K's scale. The purpose of the Blood Angels is not to do close assaults any more than it's the Ultramarines' purpose to have a stick up their genetically-modified keister about the Codex Astartes' specific commandments on salad forks or whatever. The purpose of both Chapters is to be Space Marines.

[Crimson Longinus]

10 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

True or not, that ship has sailed

 

That two loyalist primarchs have been brought back was painfully stupid, and has damaged the setting worse than anything GW has ever done. It still does not change the fact that all or most of them returning basically at the same time after ten millennia would be an order of magnitude more stupid, and reach the level of terrible writing rivalling even the Rise of Skywalker or the end of Game of Thrones.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

But should they have the best Assault Marines to begin with? I can argue that Iron Hands are just as angry as Blood Angels when they want to be. 

Clearly GW believes so.

feel free to send your argument to GW.

 

2 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Yes it matters! This leads to flandersiation, where the chapters are forced to mainly use certain units or suck.  You should be able to run a BA tank army or Iron Hands assault army etc and not to suck. 

No one is forcing anyone to play any units.

you keep making this claim.

 

you can run a blood angels tank army and an iron hands assault army without sucking  now as it is!

 

 

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Fundamentally, faction identity is a thing, it’s been built up over 4 decades at this point. Most factions have some nuance, but it’s still true that each one has a general specialty.

 

also, no, the iron hands aren’t as “angry” as the blood angels. to quote Sergeant Ancaeus in angels of death 

 

“you know nothing of rage”

 

@Crimson Longinus I think the point you’re missing is, most people enjoy playing the factions with their nuances, regardless of what is “best”, blood angels have had a bonus to strength (and initiative when it was a thing) when charging since 3rd edition, in all that time blood angels players have still used tactical squads? Have still used vehicles, have still used stuff like devastators or other shooty units.

 

part of the fun of it is that those things are surprisingly punchy when the situation means you want them to be. It fits the chapters lore and can be a lot of fun. 
 

we don’t necessarily care about bonuses to stealth, we will still use Phobos units or scouts, ours just hit a little harder, should it come up

 

 

 

Not to mention overcharged /lucifer pattern engines as well.

 

right?

like you can still play a BA army that’s mostly shooty against a shooty army, and still be viable, just in a different way, what with BA HIs now having better melee than their theoretical UM  counterparts 

 

58 minutes ago, Lexington said:

 

Sure, because that's their purpose. It's what they do. They are organizationally structured, equipped and trained to do that thing in a way that the others are not. The Blood Angels and Ultramarines are structured and equipped almost identically. Likely enough there's some training differences there, but I don't think there's much evidence that it's  so extreme that it'd be notable at 40K's scale. The purpose of the Blood Angels is not to do close assaults any more than it's the Ultramarines' purpose to have a stick up their genetically-modified keister about the Codex Astartes' specific commandments on salad forks or whatever. The purpose of both Chapters is to be Space Marines.

GW clearly disagrees with you.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:04 AM by Dr_Ruminahui
Inflammatory language removed.

[Tastyfish]

1 hour ago, ZeroWolf said:

Given how popular space wolves are, I'd still put money down on Russ being next, followed by Dorn so that BT/IF have some fun. But it looks like loyalists only come back every two editions compared to the traitors coming back every edition. GW know that Primarchs print money so they won't be leaving that on the table for twenty years.

 

That's why I think they'll be kept in the bag for a bit. The dark age of the Wolftime will be similar to the post-New Line period, where the Amazon royalties have stopped and you need something drastic to plug the gap that, frankly, the Khan is not going to fill as the 4th or 5th loyalist returned Primarch. Having a streaming show with all the tie in merch prints money above and beyond any single plastic model, but the timelines are almost as slow as pre-7th ed 40K's timescale. You're going to be talking with the production teams about your plans and timelines on a production company timescale, not the insane "new mini nearly every week" that new GW has been pushing for.

 

There's not anywhere near as massive an established Raven guard player base, but I think Daemon Corax on a mission and perhaps a somewhat associated pro-human warp based faction might boost those sales a bit more, whilst leaving one last bullet in the money cannon.

 

Russ returns as one of the characters in a "spin off" show could even work, but we're going to need several seasons of the first show to land successfully first, and Scifi/Fantasy is not cheap, quick or easy to make.

 

I was joking a bit with the 2050 timeline, no one knows what's happening that far out, but I would lean to it being more plausible than during this edition. Russ and Khan haven't even left in the Heresy/Scouring yet!  

 

 

[01RTB01]

31 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

That two loyalist primarchs have been brought back was painfully stupid, and has damaged the setting worse than anything GW has ever done. It still does not change the fact that all or most of them returning basically at the same time after ten millennia would be an order of magnitude more stupid, and reach the level of terrible writing rivalling even the Rise of Skywalker or the end of Game of Thrones.

 

 

Somehow the primarchs returned...

 

PS, you realise it was GW that brought them back?

 

 

[Antarius]

5 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Primarchs should stay dead. 

And the ones that returned should die (if they're not Daemon Primarchs). But it's not going to happen 

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Yes it matters! This leads to flandersiation, where the chapters are forced to mainly use certain units or suck.  You should be able to run a BA tank army or Iron Hands assault army etc and not to suck. 

 

You absolutely can do this! You can run a Blood Angels army with Dante, Lemartes and Death Company using the Ironstorm Spearhead Detachment. It is absolutely Blood Angels and absolutely tank company with appropriate bonuses for the tanks.

[Crimson Longinus]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

You absolutely can do this! You can run a Blood Angels army with Dante, Lemartes and Death Company using the Ironstorm Spearhead Detachment. It is absolutely Blood Angels and absolutely tank company with appropriate bonuses for the tanks.

 

Indeed, you can do this, because there are no bespoke chapter trait rules! The detachments are lore agnostic. We also have here bespoke point costs for these bespoke chapter specific units.

[Karhedron]

30 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Indeed, you can do this, because there are no bespoke chapter trait rules! The detachments are lore agnostic. We also have here bespoke point costs for these bespoke chapter specific units.

 

So we are in agreement. It is possible to run a Blood Angels armoured company which is just as good as an Iron Hands one with no flanderization involved. 

Edited Wednesday at 10:14 AM by Karhedron

[Crimson Longinus]

5 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

So we are in agreement. It is possible to run a Blood Angels armoured company which is just as good as an Iron Hands one with no flanderization involved. 

 

Yes, because there are no chapter traits! Detachments are not chapter traits as anyone can use any. 

[redmapa]

Had a quick look at the MFM and it seems like only the most dumpster tier units escaped the extra points for bringing more than 2 of the same units, clearly is not as nuanced as some people were hoping it to be. I still think this will just turn the rule of 3 into a rule of 2 in practice unless you really want to bring a certain unit then you just pay the tax, min maxxers will still find a way to exploit this somehow and everyone else gets to have less options in their armies.

[Crimson Longinus]

Meanwhile the wargear costs are barely used. Very disappointing. I was really hoping this would help to alleviate the issue of so many units affectively having just one right loadout choice, but no. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Indeed, you can do this, because there are no bespoke chapter trait rules! The detachments are lore agnostic. We also have here bespoke point costs for these bespoke chapter specific units.

Sort of.

 

the detachment names clearly indicate which geneline they’re meant to represent but they’re not locked to any specific subfaction keywords 

[nodnol88]

I appreciate there will be armies waiting a while for a Codex so this is what they have to work with for now.

 

That said, I think we have to wait for Space Marine or Ork codex to get an idea on how armies are being reshaped, costed and structured for this edition. This MFM is very much a placeholder…with some having to wait longer than others. 
 

On a separate note, the new App functionality does what they said it would. Seems pretty good to be honest.