Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Blindhamster]

wouldnt be surprised if we see assault marines leave legends frankly

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Robbienw said:

Will it though?  
 

You know they can rescale the castaferrum if they want.

 

If they rescale the Castafertum I doubt its actually going to be that much larger.

They were designed to be Small enough for boarding operations and the Redemptor chassis is too big for that.

 

That said it may pick up some redemptor traits regardless, if only to look "consistent" (personally I'm expecting either "baby redemptor" if they go for a redesign or a "Veterans only" blinged-out character model if they just rescale suitable for upgrade-kitting into someone like Bjorn if needs be).

[Crimson Longinus]

6 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

Will it though?  
 

You know they can rescale the castaferrum if they want.

 

And they could have rescaled old marines instead of making primaris, but they didn't. Redemptor is the marine dread look now, the new venerable dread will be designed to visually match that. 

 

Besides, even if they were to rescale castaferrum to be redemptor size, the old castaferrum would still be a questionable proxy because it is massively smaller. 

[Indy Techwisp]

13 minutes ago, No Foes Remain said:

It's both annoying and kind of stupid that GW have placed all the other old firstborn marines into Legends, including Assault Marines, but haven't with Tacticals or Devastators which I would have thought would be fairly simple unless they don't want people using them for whatever stupid reason?

 

Personally I think GW made the call to have them be "official proxies" because then they can blanket allow them at offical tourneys without opening the door to broken Legends nonsense like old Crisis Suits.

 

Also possible they predicted far larger and more vitriolic backlash if they actually sent Tacticals and Devastators to Legends proper.

8 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

wouldnt be surprised if we see assault marines leave legends frankly

 

Iirc Assault Marines are jump troops with melee weapons.

Is that not basically what JPAIs are?

[Indy Techwisp]

3 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

And they could have rescaled old marines instead of making primaris, but they didn't.

 

They didn't initially because people demanded a Lore reason for the refresh after being hit with the classic "It's always been like this" too many times, so they listened to the community, made it a big Lore thing and have spent the last 9 years paying the price for it.

[Robbienw]

2 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Redemptor is the marine dread look now, the new venerable dread will be designed to visually match that. 

 

I still wouldn’t be so sure they will base it on the Redemptor.  MKX is the standard look for Marines now, but they still kept and refreshed the classic Terminator look, rather than replacing it with something MKXish.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happened here. 
 

GW will just change or ignore the fluff if they want to do a bigger castaferrum.

[Orange Knight]

59 minutes ago, NothingHere said:

I know what he meant by refresh. 

 

I just don't care how he put it. I want them to to keep removing and replacing things till people finally stop just taking it and actually suggest GW stop being anti consumer atleast a little. 

 

I know it won't happen, cause i have seen what makes other marine players cheer but one can dream people have some sort of standard and adhere to it. 

 

 

 

So you just want people to be miserable?

 

Can we put an end to the endless doom hammer? It's been 9 years, and it's played out at this point. 

 

21 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

They didn't initially because people demanded a Lore reason for the refresh after being hit with the classic "It's always been like this" too many times, so they listened to the community, made it a big Lore thing and have spent the last 9 years paying the price for it.

 

If by paying the price you mean "made record sales and record profits" then I guess they have...

 

 

Edited August 24 by Orange Knight

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Crimson Longinus said:

It has been clear from the moment the image of the first primaris leaked that the old style marines would be done for.

It most certainly was not. The 8th edition launch articles even said "Don't worry, pre-Primaris Marines aren't going anywhere!" and certainly that was the official line GW store staff went by. You can try and argue we should have read between the lines or not treated this as a promise or whatever but the fact is GW lied.

 

Whatever; between the increasingly terrible designs of modern miniatures, the atrocious direction the rules are going in and the large stash of STLs, second hand models and old rulebooks I've been hoarding I can see my future GW purchases getting incredibly few and far between. Printer going brrr will continue until morale improves.

[Indy Techwisp]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

If by paying the price you mean "made record sales and record profits" then I guess they have...

 

They'd be paying the repair and maintenance costs of keeping nearly decade old kit moulds functioning while also having a loud chunk of the community scream at them whenever something got updated (most of that damage has been taken by the social media teams tho).

[Orange Knight]

5 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

It most certainly was not. The 8th edition launch articles even said "Don't worry, pre-Primaris Marines aren't going anywhere!" and certainly that was the official line GW store staff went by.

 

They didn't go anywhere for years.

 

They couldn't retire the old range immediately because it took years of releases to fill every role that would be lost, but it was obvious that Primaris were a replacement as time went on.

 

GW took too long and it poisoned some people. That was their biggest mistake.

Edited August 24 by Orange Knight

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

GW took too long and it poisoned some people. That was their biggest mistake.

 

Honestly, I'd like to see the sales numbers for Tacticals and Devastators since 8th.

 

The Firstborns were kept initially because the rollout was godawful, but every Primaris Lore change since has dragged them back down into the mud to the point that now they effectively are "just marines" once more, mixing Armour marks about like the old days because the supply chain of brand new stuff from Mars has run out and we're back to business as usual.

They have finally become the upscaled regular marines they should have been from the start.

[Crimson Longinus]

3 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

It most certainly was not. The 8th edition launch articles even said "Don't worry, pre-Primaris Marines aren't going anywhere!" and certainly that was the official line GW store staff went by. You can try and argue we should have read between the lines or not treated this as a promise or whatever but the fact is GW lied.

 

Yes. And it was obvious that they did. (Granted, the models did stay for nine years, so I guess it could be argued that they were in a sense truthful at the moment.) But seeing the new improved design it was crystal clear that this was what the marines would look like going forward an there was no going back. It was only the question how fast the replacement would be, not whether it was happening. I shelved my old lovingly converted and painted marine army there and then, and started a new primaris force and haven't looked back. 

 

3 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Whatever; between the increasingly terrible designs of modern miniatures, the atrocious direction the rules are going in and the large stash of STLs, second hand models and old rulebooks I've been hoarding I can see my future GW purchases getting incredibly few and far between. Printer going brrr will continue until morale improves.

 

I'm on fence on the rules,* the models overall are better than ever of course, even though I didn't like the new bike captain. 

 

* Though regardless of the actual quality of the rules, the pace of change is certainly exhausting. So if one has a like-minded group, I can certainly see the appeal of just playing one's preferred old edition and stop worrying about the churn. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

43 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Personally I think GW made the call to have them be "official proxies" because then they can blanket allow them at offical tourneys without opening the door to broken Legends nonsense like old Crisis Suits.

 

Also possible they predicted far larger and more vitriolic backlash if they actually sent Tacticals and Devastators to Legends proper.

 

Iirc Assault Marines are jump troops with melee weapons.

Is that not basically what JPAIs are?

No.

 

assault marines could take two special weapons along with a Sgt having a special melee weapon and pistol, and then 2 more marines with pistol/chainsword

[Orange Knight]

I imagine those kits sold very well for years. They would be popular just for the various bits and helmets, and they had usable rules, and had further utility in the Horus Heresy.

 

I also think that those sales slowed right down over the past edition as their rules became less relevant, and more and more hobbyists lost attachment to the older models, or never had any to begin with. 

 

The Primaris are as old now as Marines were when I first joined the hobby. There are near 10yr hobby veterans that have only known Primaris, and the current lore developments are as natural to them as the static setting was to us in 3rd to 7th editions.

Edited August 24 by Orange Knight

[Jukkiz]

A basic space marine being stronger then a guy with the favour of all 4 chaos gods is just hilarious.

[NothingHere]

26 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

So you just want people to be miserable?

 

Can we put an end to the endless doom hammer? It's been 9 years, and it's played out at this point.

 

 

It wouldn't be miserable? People are really happy about it, it seems? Why not do it again? It literally only benefits GW to keep selling marine players their armies again. 

 

They are a for profit company, if people are miserable then maybe they should actually do something instead just "accepting" it and moving on, that goes for everything. The doomhammering continues until people stop taking it you know where everytime GW does something anti consumer or bad for the community. 

[Hfran Morkai]

Interesting.

 

I'm glad I picked up a couple of Mars pattern Predators and a Phobos Land Raider a fair while back for my Heresy projects (my fluff was that they were easier to produce and therefore were in-theatre replacements).

 

Does feel somewhat end of an era but with the possibility of the Scouring, Badab  etc we could see some cool stuff like Castaferrum Dreads get updated.

[Tastyfish]

2 hours ago, No Foes Remain said:

Well bollocks. I guess there goes my planned DA successor chapter then, I had hopped that Tacticals and Devastators would get legends rules like the assault marines did but I suppose hope is the first step on the road to disappointment...

 

You were already planning on starting a traitor force, what's stopping you now? 

The CSM codex is right there, with heavy weapons in squads, predators...or Deathwatch if you wanted to make something like a chunky tactical squad with a heavy and special weapon.

 

Though honestly, were you really planning on running mixed heavy weapon Devastators? Between Desolators, Helblasters, Eliminators and Eradicators you've got a counts as for almost all the devastator options.

 

Also, assume that any current legends unit isn't making the cut to new legends. Some FW stuff might make it, but regular assault marines almost certainly aren't. 

The thought is now that there's no discernible difference between primaris and firstborn versions of the same stuff.

 

Time will tell, but do keep seeing a few odd questions floating around that I'm pretty sure I can guess.

 

Other toughnesses probably won't be changing (maybe SoB when they get a refresh to have T4 power armour and T3 noviates).

Death guard are already +1T higher than new marines, which already matters for the new bolters and the threshold for anti-tank weapons. Same as Custodes. There's no reason to assume these guys are still going to be pegged to a marine baseline - since the marines are moving up to be more elite rather than the primary point of comparison.

 

Other guns are not going to scale up to deal with the new tougher marines, marines are now tougher than they were before - if the other guns changed that would not still be the case. I suspect this will include Plasma, since Kustom Mega Blast weapons are still hazardous and S9 rather than 10.

 

That said there is a big question for me on Chaos boltguns, whether they will be S5 AP-1 like the new bolt rifles or stay at S4 AP-, I could definitely see it going both ways, but suspect we'll see S5 AP- or something odd like that.

[roryokane]

2 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

 

You were already planning on starting a traitor force, what's stopping you now? 

The CSM codex is right there, with heavy weapons in squads, predators...or Deathwatch if you wanted to make something like a chunky tactical squad with a heavy and special weapon.

 

Though honestly, were you really planning on running mixed heavy weapon Devastators? Between Desolators, Helblasters, Eliminators and Eradicators you've got a counts as for almost all the devastator options.

 

Also, assume that any current legends unit isn't making the cut to new legends. Some FW stuff might make it, but regular assault marines almost certainly aren't. 

The thought is now that there's no discernible difference between primaris and firstborn versions of the same stuff.

 

Time will tell, but do keep seeing a few odd questions floating around that I'm pretty sure I can guess.

 

Other toughnesses probably won't be changing (maybe SoB when they get a refresh to have T4 power armour and T3 noviates).

Death guard are already +1T higher than new marines, which already matters for the new bolters and the threshold for anti-tank weapons. Same as Custodes. There's no reason to assume these guys are still going to be pegged to a marine baseline - since the marines are moving up to be more elite rather than the primary point of comparison.

 

Other guns are not going to scale up to deal with the new tougher marines, marines are now tougher than they were before - if the other guns changed that would not still be the case. I suspect this will include Plasma, since Kustom Mega Blast weapons are still hazardous and S9 rather than 10.

 

That said there is a big question for me on Chaos boltguns, whether they will be S5 AP-1 like the new bolt rifles or stay at S4 AP-, I could definitely see it going both ways, but suspect we'll see S5 AP- or something odd like that.

They suggested that the chaos marines would be upgraded to be vaguely consistent with the new astartes profiles - both in the video and the article. I would be VERY surprised if traitor marines don’t have strength 5 weapons and toughness 5.

[Tastyfish]

1 minute ago, roryokane said:

They suggested that the chaos marines would be upgraded to be vaguely consistent with the new astartes profiles - both in the video and the article. I would be VERY surprised if traitor marines don’t have strength 5 weapons and toughness 5.

 

I thought they almost came outright and said that the other marines would get the same toughness etc, however there is a difference between boltguns/bolters and boltrifles.

They Grey Hunters in Space Wolves visually have something closer to the old Boltgun, but that's now referred to as a carbine and even now S4 AP- rather than S4 AP-1.

 

I don't think intercessor and legionnaire bolt weapons are going to see parity. But that might just be the two firing modes and the option to get D2, given bolt pistols seem to be S5 Ap-1.

 

Also noted that we can see Plasma profiles in the intercessor sheet for the pistol. They're still S7 D1/S8 D2 hazardous.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Tastyfish said:

I don't think intercessor and legionnaire bolt weapons are going to see parity. But that might just be the two firing modes and the option to get D2, given bolt pistols seem to be S5 Ap-1.

 

The specifics of Bolters are probably gonna be different for each Marine "type" but hopefully TSons don't get powercrept out of our unique boltgun's "thing" (better AP) the very next edition after we got it back.

[Wormwoods]

Hey, everyone got an extra decade with their tactical squads. Could have been worse.

[Tastyfish]

29 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

The specifics of Bolters are probably gonna be different for each Marine "type" but hopefully TSons don't get powercrept out of our unique boltgun's "thing" (better AP) the very next edition after we got it back.

S5 Ap2 is still a unique profile I think, especially if regular chaos gets S5 AP- carbines.

I'd be quite surprised if they had as good a profile as the focused bolt rifle (S6 AP-1/2 D2) but sometimes unexpected change can be good?

[Plaguecaster]

Ah yes we at GW have to remove entire "units some of which have been the face of the army like rhino variants and tactical squad because space Marines are too bloated due to all the primaris model but on completely different note here's another generic captain model this time on a bike because marines clearly do not have enough character models" what a joke 

 

I'm gonna be really angry if the chaos legions are now gonna lose all their rhino variants as well 

[Marshal Mittens]

It just feels so wild, so many of these kits are not old. I still have unbuilt supressors and the hammer fall bunker is only a couple of editions old. I am honestly suprised to see so much new stuff.