Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Jukkiz]

A basic space marine being stronger then a guy with the favour of all 4 chaos gods is just hilarious.

[NothingHere]

26 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

So you just want people to be miserable?

 

Can we put an end to the endless doom hammer? It's been 9 years, and it's played out at this point.

 

 

It wouldn't be miserable? People are really happy about it, it seems? Why not do it again? It literally only benefits GW to keep selling marine players their armies again. 

 

They are a for profit company, if people are miserable then maybe they should actually do something instead just "accepting" it and moving on, that goes for everything. The doomhammering continues until people stop taking it you know where everytime GW does something anti consumer or bad for the community. 

[Tastyfish]

2 hours ago, No Foes Remain said:

Well bollocks. I guess there goes my planned DA successor chapter then, I had hopped that Tacticals and Devastators would get legends rules like the assault marines did but I suppose hope is the first step on the road to disappointment...

 

You were already planning on starting a traitor force, what's stopping you now? 

The CSM codex is right there, with heavy weapons in squads, predators...or Deathwatch if you wanted to make something like a chunky tactical squad with a heavy and special weapon.

 

Though honestly, were you really planning on running mixed heavy weapon Devastators? Between Desolators, Helblasters, Eliminators and Eradicators you've got a counts as for almost all the devastator options.

 

Also, assume that any current legends unit isn't making the cut to new legends. Some FW stuff might make it, but regular assault marines almost certainly aren't. 

The thought is now that there's no discernible difference between primaris and firstborn versions of the same stuff.

 

Time will tell, but do keep seeing a few odd questions floating around that I'm pretty sure I can guess.

 

Other toughnesses probably won't be changing (maybe SoB when they get a refresh to have T4 power armour and T3 noviates).

Death guard are already +1T higher than new marines, which already matters for the new bolters and the threshold for anti-tank weapons. Same as Custodes. There's no reason to assume these guys are still going to be pegged to a marine baseline - since the marines are moving up to be more elite rather than the primary point of comparison.

 

Other guns are not going to scale up to deal with the new tougher marines, marines are now tougher than they were before - if the other guns changed that would not still be the case. I suspect this will include Plasma, since Kustom Mega Blast weapons are still hazardous and S9 rather than 10.

 

That said there is a big question for me on Chaos boltguns, whether they will be S5 AP-1 like the new bolt rifles or stay at S4 AP-, I could definitely see it going both ways, but suspect we'll see S5 AP- or something odd like that.

[roryokane]

2 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

 

You were already planning on starting a traitor force, what's stopping you now? 

The CSM codex is right there, with heavy weapons in squads, predators...or Deathwatch if you wanted to make something like a chunky tactical squad with a heavy and special weapon.

 

Though honestly, were you really planning on running mixed heavy weapon Devastators? Between Desolators, Helblasters, Eliminators and Eradicators you've got a counts as for almost all the devastator options.

 

Also, assume that any current legends unit isn't making the cut to new legends. Some FW stuff might make it, but regular assault marines almost certainly aren't. 

The thought is now that there's no discernible difference between primaris and firstborn versions of the same stuff.

 

Time will tell, but do keep seeing a few odd questions floating around that I'm pretty sure I can guess.

 

Other toughnesses probably won't be changing (maybe SoB when they get a refresh to have T4 power armour and T3 noviates).

Death guard are already +1T higher than new marines, which already matters for the new bolters and the threshold for anti-tank weapons. Same as Custodes. There's no reason to assume these guys are still going to be pegged to a marine baseline - since the marines are moving up to be more elite rather than the primary point of comparison.

 

Other guns are not going to scale up to deal with the new tougher marines, marines are now tougher than they were before - if the other guns changed that would not still be the case. I suspect this will include Plasma, since Kustom Mega Blast weapons are still hazardous and S9 rather than 10.

 

That said there is a big question for me on Chaos boltguns, whether they will be S5 AP-1 like the new bolt rifles or stay at S4 AP-, I could definitely see it going both ways, but suspect we'll see S5 AP- or something odd like that.

They suggested that the chaos marines would be upgraded to be vaguely consistent with the new astartes profiles - both in the video and the article. I would be VERY surprised if traitor marines don’t have strength 5 weapons and toughness 5.

[Tastyfish]

1 minute ago, roryokane said:

They suggested that the chaos marines would be upgraded to be vaguely consistent with the new astartes profiles - both in the video and the article. I would be VERY surprised if traitor marines don’t have strength 5 weapons and toughness 5.

 

I thought they almost came outright and said that the other marines would get the same toughness etc, however there is a difference between boltguns/bolters and boltrifles.

They Grey Hunters in Space Wolves visually have something closer to the old Boltgun, but that's now referred to as a carbine and even now S4 AP- rather than S4 AP-1.

 

I don't think intercessor and legionnaire bolt weapons are going to see parity. But that might just be the two firing modes and the option to get D2, given bolt pistols seem to be S5 Ap-1.

 

Also noted that we can see Plasma profiles in the intercessor sheet for the pistol. They're still S7 D1/S8 D2 hazardous.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Tastyfish said:

I don't think intercessor and legionnaire bolt weapons are going to see parity. But that might just be the two firing modes and the option to get D2, given bolt pistols seem to be S5 Ap-1.

 

The specifics of Bolters are probably gonna be different for each Marine "type" but hopefully TSons don't get powercrept out of our unique boltgun's "thing" (better AP) the very next edition after we got it back.

[Tastyfish]

29 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

The specifics of Bolters are probably gonna be different for each Marine "type" but hopefully TSons don't get powercrept out of our unique boltgun's "thing" (better AP) the very next edition after we got it back.

S5 Ap2 is still a unique profile I think, especially if regular chaos gets S5 AP- carbines.

I'd be quite surprised if they had as good a profile as the focused bolt rifle (S6 AP-1/2 D2) but sometimes unexpected change can be good?

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Jukkiz said:

A basic space marine being stronger than a guy with the favour of all 4 chaos gods is just hilarious.

Not sure what you’re getting at? They e stated chaos marines will be getting pdf updates to align them

 

2 hours ago, roryokane said:

Can… can we go back? Whatever GW was doing during the Black Books/IA era is what it should be.

Back then forgeworld did those products and operated mostly independently of games workshop.

 

 

2 hours ago, Tastyfish said:

That said there is a big question for me on Chaos boltguns, whether they will be S5 AP-1 like the new bolt rifles or stay at S4 AP-, I could definitely see it going both ways, but suspect we'll see S5 AP- or something odd like that.

Gut feel here is they’ll be closer to the bolt carbine rules and lack the damage 2 shooting option.

Edited 21 hours ago by Lord_Ikka

[de Selby]

I've been thinking for a while that bolters and chainswords should be damage 2, they're such iconic weapons (looks where he is) and so unimpressive in game.

 

It's a bit odd if all the profiles are going to be t3 or t5 now. What will be t4? Generally it looks like my primaris salamanders successors and my dark angels will both be legal out of the same book this edition, so I can give this new design paradigm the old college try.

 

It's funny to me that when GW started fleshing out their Horus Heresy setting 20 years ago, people considered it ridiculous that 40k weapons and equipment were basically unchanged since times of legend.   All that studio development time later the primaris 40k and firstborn 30k space marine armies finally look distinct.

[Lord_Ikka]

=][= General warning- Keep it on topic and without personal attacks/inflammatory statements. This is a contentious issue, but you are all adults and should be able to have a discussion without heavy moderation. =][=

[phandaal]

Well, well, well... and just when I decided to kick off the year with a squad of Tactical Marines, a Razorback, and a Predator.

 

Now with this latest development, I'm... uh, I'm actually just going to continue along with no change to any of my plans.

 

That reminds me, my next unit is just sitting there on the desk like 70% finished. Staring at me, with judgment in their yet-to-be-painted eyes.

[WrathOfTheLion]

To me, it sounds like DA, SW, etc. will have indices until they get a new book. Will be interesting to see if they end up completely separate again, or with an addendum book again.

 

For SW, losing access to Intercessors can make sense, but will see. The previous supplement was very odd, so hopefully if they want jump pack intercessors to be Skyclaws and other such substitutions, they're appropriately set up for that.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, de Selby said:

It's a bit odd if all the profiles are going to be t3 or t5 now. What will be t4?

Modified human tough, but not inhumanely tough is how I see it. Eldar in their equivalent of power armor, Necron warriors, Votann kin, maybe Goremongers and Catachans.

[ThaneOfTas]

1 hour ago, de Selby said:

It's a bit odd if all the profiles are going to be t3 or t5 now. What will be t4?

Could get sisters into that spot, same with most Eldar.

[BadgersinHills]

I hope Space Marine armies become more elite with fewer minis on the table. The rules changes look interesting, though am wary about power creep this early in the edition unless they reflect it in the points. 

[Robbienw]

They are probably doing early work on the next replacement marine range already, I give it 8-10 years until the cycle starts anew 

[Rowland]

So from a newcomers perspective what is the baseline?  Surely it’s the Imperial troops (HDF). I assume not all forces will get up graded (although didn’t Ork boys get something?)

 so does this mean GW will sell fewer SM to a buyer looking for a2000 point army?  I guess with price hikes and maybe supply issues in future this is a fair reason.

[jimbo1701]

My thoughts for what they’re worth. 
 

- inevitable move of firstborn stuff to legends but good to see there will be ongoing support. 
- sad to see some more recent releases go to legends / proxy, doesn’t bode well for other units such as reivers going forwards. I notice the atv wasn’t on there. 
- nice to see the new models - intercessor kit finally appears done as it should have been in the first place. Hoping for claw options on vanguard still. 
- rule changes are nice. More elite armies, all bolters having ap1 etc all welcome changes. 

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, BadgersinHills said:

I hope Space Marine armies become more elite with fewer minis on the table. The rules changes look interesting, though am wary about power creep this early in the edition unless they reflect it in the points. 

 

Orks seem to have picked up a points hike so I am sure Marines will too. My guess is 5 Intercessors will clock in at around 100 points now but we will have to wait and see.

[Rhavien]

13 minutes ago, Rowland said:

So from a newcomers perspective what is the baseline?  Surely it’s the Imperial troops (HDF). I assume not all forces will get up graded (although didn’t Ork boys get something?)

 so does this mean GW will sell fewer SM to a buyer looking for a2000 point army?  I guess with price hikes and maybe supply issues in future this is a fair reason.

I don't see GW counting in 2K armies. Either you want to expand your collection further to add some variety to your list building, or you want to try something new and start another faction if you are hooked to the hobby. My guess is that there are very few cases where ppl build one 2K army and stay at that point or leave the hobby afterwards. That's what the new shinies or rules shakeups are for. To keep you buying more.

 

--- another topic---

 

 

Regarding the vanguard vets:

I'm curious how the van vets from the Armageddon box will stay viable against the clearly superior shield build? Will it be a point upgrade? At least now I know that my already converted van vets can stay as they are.

[Karhedron]

1 minute ago, Rhavien said:

Regarding the vanguard vets:

I'm curious how the van vets from the Armageddon box will stay viable against the clearly superior shield build? Will it be a point upgrade? At least now I know that my already converted van vets can stay as they are.

 

My guess is shields will cost extra. One thing I noticed though is that they specified Combat Shields (rather than Storm Shields) so I am guessing only a 5++. Will you be able to run Combat Shield + Pistol + CCW though?

[Bouargh]

5 hours ago, BadgersinHills said:

I hope Space Marine armies become more elite with fewer minis on the table. The rules changes look interesting, though am wary about power creep this early in the edition unless they reflect it in the points. 

 

Indeed, yet it still means that all the Meta (I hate that word...) will be shaked deeply (probably). Updgrading T en S on Marines means that more or less 50% of the armies played are directly affected. A buffer will be that when marines play against other marines, the effect of these changes will probably be limited. But against more fragile stuff such as space elves, hummies or skitarii... I guess we have a shiny new series of balance dataslates to be expected soon. This 11th Ed is looking as looking like lesser and esser to an intermediate refresh. 

 

On the otherside, the conspiration addict in me thinks that it may also explain why Hastarii were released and why the laserlance on the Dragon knights can now be seen as a weapon of choice... 

 

59 minutes ago, Rowland said:

So from a newcomers perspective what is the baseline?  Surely it’s the Imperial troops (HDF). I assume not all forces will get up graded (although didn’t Ork boys get something?)

 so does this mean GW will sell fewer SM to a buyer looking for a2000 point army?  I guess with price hikes and maybe supply issues in future this is a fair reason.

 

I will be provocative here: there is none. Or rather, it looks like it is as such as the rules updates are falling as rain on Mawsynram (supposed to be the wettest place on earth) - which would be useless in a math driven design using a baseline and a statistical eval of the profiles.

Should we get a baseline, IMHO, it should be the grot. It will define the worse case or almost (gaunts may be in competition with grots maybe) and set the floor point value reference.

 

In the very first Ed it was the SM and the Ork with a little hue making the former stronger on some stats and the latter on some others, but with a very thin distinction. 

[JeffJedi]

8 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

 

Regarding the vanguard vets:

I'm curious how the van vets from the Armageddon box will stay viable against the clearly superior shield build? Will it be a point upgrade? At least now I know that my already converted van vets can stay as they are.

Clearly they are off to Legends next. ;)

[Tastyfish]

Also just now wondering, with the tactical squad now gone from the battlefields of the 42nd Millennium, the Age of Darkness is now exploring the post-Codex era of the Age of Strife. I wonder if we are going to see them resurface there?

[Mogger351]

21 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Orks seem to have picked up a points hike so I am sure Marines will too. My guess is 5 Intercessors will clock in at around 100 points now but we will have to wait and see.

I'm not so sure it's that simple.

 

Against knights for example they're twice as likely to wound with a d2 shot and now able to cap an objective whilst doing so. The defensive change matters less, but thats one angle that's hard to price.

 

Simultaneously into say tau, they're again able to 2-3 shot crisis suits and would them on 4s, so a big jump in output, they then start taking less damage from plasma, pulse, flamer and fusion weapons in return. So against tau they might well warrant more than that increase.

 

There keeps being a lot of talk about the legends models and how useful the units are, but not much discussion what it means for the everyone else.