Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Verbal Underbelly]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I have no issue with softback as long as we get to enjoy some of the financial savings

hah ahh aha h ah aah ahahahha aha h ha hah h 

Good one. 

Jokes aside I'd assume the price would be the same as current hardback — a fine example of shrinkflation. 

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I do not wish to hijack this thread, because this is not the forum for it. But there were many years where the Black Templars were specifically forbidden from using any of the recent space marine toys because we still had our own codex. A lot of pre-primaris new space marine toys came out that we were unable to use.

 

It wasn't until 6th edition when we finally got an update of sorts, in that we were rolled into the main space marine codex. Meaning we lost almost everything unique to us except the crusader squad and our 3 named characters. The Black Templars forum on here still hasn't recovered from that time.

 

But yes, from being incorporated we were at that time allowed to use all the new things instead. Except by then they weren't all that new anymore. Things like thunderfire cannons, centurions or hunters. But it would be some 17 years before there was finally a Black Templar specific release again. I suppose to filthy xenos and heretics this may still sound like luxury.

 

But we know what the long wait is like and belittling that isn't a good way to win any sympathy with us.

Sympathy was not requested, 17 years is a long time for a refresh of a particular unit. This does not equate to being able to state "GW doesn't release enough marines" however. That is what erodes goodwill.

[MoriyaSchism]

8 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

 

Since 8th marine infantry boxes, not units:

 

Intercessors (twice)

Aggressors

Inceptors

Infiltrators

Reivers

Scouts

Sternguard

Vanguard

Eliminators

Eradicators

Hellblasters

Desolation

Terminators

Assault terminators

Assault intercessors

Jump intercessors

Bladeguard

Heavy intercessors

Infernus

 

Total: 19 infantry kits unless I missed one

 

I'll be kind enough to not count the other units that come with supplements nor the

ultramarine stuff, nor suppressors.

 

Eldar, as you note, have had:

Scorpions

Banshee

Reaper

Dragon

Hawk

Guardians

Rangers

Corsairs

Spiders

Jumpy corsairs

 

For a total of 10, whilst having one of the biggest refreshes period outside of marines and having to wait 20 years to get it.

 

They also have/had issues with warger stuck on specific autarch sculpts.

 

Marines get enough, stop being spoilt.

You somehow managed to miss the point of my post entirely and also correctly demonstrated the problem I was hinting at. This is bloat and its entirely unnecessary, Space Marines didn't need this stuff to be profitable or sell. 

The unit entry comparison between Craftworld Eldar and Codex compliant Space Marines was based on the old infantry datasheets before Primaris. The two factions were on relatively equal footing in that regard. The point of the comparison between the release schedule of Primaris Marines and the Eldar update waves wasn't how long the players had to wait for their updates, but how much more efficient and sensible the Eldar update was. Most of the long awaited updates for the Eldar got pushed out in the span of 3 years while the Space Marine release could have been handled better with less kits and on a shorter time scale. The Stormcast Eternal model of releases was a disaster. 

With Space Marines you went from 9 infantry squads on par with most factions in the game into the bloated mess we see today even after all the classic Marines got culled from the roster. 
We have:
3 Tactical squads (Intercessors, Incursors, Heavy Intercessors)

5 Devastator squads (Desolators, Hellblasters, Melta Rifle Eradicators, Infernus Squad, Heavy Bolter Eradicators)
3 Assault squads (Assault Intercessors, Reivers, Jump Assault Intercessors)
4 Veteran squads (Bladeguard, Sternguard, Vanguard and Company Heroes) 

3 Scout squads (Infiltrators, Eliminators and Scouts)

2 Terminator Squads

Then a bunch of stuff no one cares about or really wants to buy like Inceptors and Aggressors. 

That's like 22 datasheets for 21 kits. 11 kits of random nonsense put into production instead of manufacturing updates for other subfactions and factions. That was the point of my entire post. I wrote a post a few months ago about consolidating the Classic and Primaris units into just 10 datasheets by using the old weapon option system. No use in talking about that, it's already over but that doesn't make what happened good or desirable for any other faction. As an Eldar and Grey Knights collector I certainly wouldn't want those factions to get the Primaris release treatment. Imagine that, three Purgation Squad datasheets and boxes. 

 

Edit:

10 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Sympathy was not requested, 17 years is a long time for a refresh of a particular unit. This does not equate to being able to state "GW doesn't release enough marines" however. That is what erodes goodwill.

I'd also like to state that nowhere in my post did I say that I was complaining about Space Marines not getting enough releases. That was something you hallucinated when you read my post. 

Edited September 8 by MoriyaSchism

[LittlePlasticHomies]

So does this mean there’s no new venerable dreadnought coming or could they sneak it in between now and preorder?

[Mogger351]

15 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

You somehow managed to miss the point of my post entirely and also correctly demonstrated the problem I was hinting at. This is bloat and its entirely unnecessary, Space Marines didn't need this stuff to be profitable or sell. 

The unit entry comparison between Craftworld Eldar and Codex compliant Space Marines was based on the old infantry datasheets before Primaris. The two factions were on relatively equal footing in that regard. The point of the comparison between the release schedule of Primaris Marines and the Eldar update waves wasn't how long the players had to wait for their updates, but how much more efficient and sensible the Eldar update was. Most of the long awaited updates for the Eldar got pushed out in the span of 3 years while the Space Marine release could have been handled better with less kits and on a shorter time scale. The Stormcast Eternal model of releases was a disaster. 

With Space Marines you went from 9 infantry squads on par with most factions in the game into the bloated mess we see today even after all the classic Marines got culled from the roster. 
We have:
3 Tactical squads (Intercessors, Incursors, Heavy Intercessors)

5 Devastator squads (Desolators, Hellblasters, Melta Rifle Eradicators, Infernus Squad, Heavy Bolter Eradicators)
3 Assault squads (Assault Intercessors, Reivers, Jump Assault Intercessors)
4 Veteran squads (Bladeguard, Sternguard, Vanguard and Company Heroes) 

3 Scout squads (Infiltrators, Eliminators and Scouts)

2 Terminator Squads

Then a bunch of stuff no one cares about or really wants to buy like Inceptors and Aggressors. 

That's like 22 datasheets for 21 kits. 11 kits of random nonsense put into production instead of manufacturing updates for other subfactions and factions. That was the point of my entire post. I wrote a post a few months ago about consolidating the Classic and Primaris units into just 10 datasheets by using the old weapon option system. No use in talking about that, it's already over but that doesn't make what happened good or desirable for any other faction. As an Eldar and Grey Knights collector I certainly wouldn't want those factions to get the Primaris release treatment. Imagine that, three Purgation Squad datasheets and boxes. 

 

Edit:

I'd also like to state that nowhere in my post did I say that I was complaining about Space Marines not getting enough releases. That was something you hallucinated when you read my post. 

Well you see the problem is you spent a lot of time saying "I don't want primaris give me 7th ed kits back" in so many weird ways it wasn't immediately obvious, my bad.

[DemonGSides]

15 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Well you see the problem is you spent a lot of time saying "I don't want primaris give me 7th ed kits back" in so many weird ways it wasn't immediately obvious, my bad.

 

Idk how you missed it, that's about all they have groused about for the past three years. 

17 minutes ago, LittlePlasticHomies said:

So does this mean there’s no new venerable dreadnought coming or could they sneak it in between now and preorder?

It'll come post codex. 

[SpecialIssue]

I think this bloat speaks to the loss of faction coherence and a design paradigm increasingly based on product needs, rather than something based on an artistic vision for the universe.

 

They redesigned Marines due to the need to get people to(re)buy a new product line that nonetheless is the lowest risk for them to develop (see also the unnecesary, distasteful expansion of the Deathwarch into a full duplicate marine faction), while making them a good entry-level beginner army (since this is where most people start 40k); hence the mono-weapon squads. The increasing blandness is coming from this product-centric focus, and because no-one in design seems to have a vision of what Space Marines should be like in the 41st millennium apart from vague IP of "they speak like they're in high fantasy but have power armour and guns."

 

You can see most of the faction coherence (mostly) hold for other armies because they aren't the cash cow that marines are (and yes these factions are subsidised by Marines) and are a much risker and unprofitable proposition to milk or manipulate product-wise.

[Karhedron]

29 minutes ago, LittlePlasticHomies said:

So does this mean there’s no new venerable dreadnought coming or could they sneak it in between now and preorder?

 

The datasheet count strongly indicates that it is not in the Codex and so won't be part of this release wave.

 

One possibility is that the Venerable Dreadnought is not a general Marine unit but an update of the Space Wolves Bjorn/VenDread kit.

[lhg033]

On the topic of the the new codex releases... 
I dont like overly bling version - it does absolutely nothing for me. 
...but vanilla SM are not one of my main armies so I am biased in some ways/will prefer to save my money here.

 

On the topic of the contents/lack of new units....
Given the way the rules for detachments have gone i think too much variety could make it harder to have balance the game. More fixed units work better here.

I dont like it but I can get it. It also streamlines their inventory and allows them a bit of a reset

Arguably it also justifies even more the 'legendsing' of all the old, diverse unit types.

 

That said, a future upgrade for a weapons from for the intercessors to make them 'tactical' intercessors would be nice
Might be more of a kill team thing though

 

 

[Mogger351]

12 minutes ago, SpecialIssue said:

I think this bloat speaks to the loss of faction coherence and a design paradigm increasingly based on product needs, rather than something based on an artistic vision for the universe.

 

They redesigned Marines due to the need to get people to(re)buy a new product line that nonetheless is the lowest risk for them to develop (see also the unnecesary, distasteful expansion of the Deathwarch into a full duplicate marine faction), while making them a good entry-level beginner army (since this is where most people start 40k); hence the mono-weapon squads. The increasing blandness is coming from this product-centric focus, and because no-one in design seems to have a vision of what Space Marines should be like in the 41st millennium apart from vague IP of "they speak like they're in high fantasy but have power armour and guns."

 

You can see most of the faction coherence (mostly) hold for other armies because they aren't the cash cow that marines are (and yes these factions are subsidised by Marines) and are a much risker and unprofitable proposition to milk or manipulate product-wise.

I think the design intent was clear - more up-teched marines in a HH legion style deployment to match reborn Bobby G. Someone somewhere got cold feet and changed course.

[lhg033]

On the topic of the the new codex releases... 
I dont like overly bling version - it does absolutely nothing for me. 
...but vanilla SM are not one of my main armies so I am biased in some ways/will prefer to save my money here.

 

On the topic of the contents/lack of new units....
Given the way the rules for detachments have gone i think too much variety could make it harder to have balance the game. More fixed units work better here.

I dont like it but I can get it. It also streamlines their inventory and allows them a bit of a reset

Arguably it also justifies even more the 'legendsing' of all the old, diverse unit types.

 

That said, a future upgrade for a weapons from for the intercessors to make them 'tactical' intercessors would be nice
Might be more of a kill team thing though

 

 

[HeadlessCross]

57 minutes ago, lhg033 said:

 

 

That said, a future upgrade for a weapons from for the intercessors to make them 'tactical' intercessors would be nice
Might be more of a kill team thing though

 

 

It's the best reason to choose Deathwatch as an army, especially now that they'll be getting a detachment that allows you to run them allied in a Marine army and actually buffs them a little. 

[Jukkiz]

15 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's the best reason to choose Deathwatch as an army, especially now that they'll be getting a detachment that allows you to run them allied in a Marine army and actually buffs them a little. 

Gw should give deathwatch players updated upgrade sprue with proper bolt rifles with ammo selection, 20 or so chapter pauldrons, 20 deathwatch pauldrons and deathwatch specific helmets, targeters, bits etc. 

I loathe the super lazy way of them making just regular intercessors into deathwatch with pauldron swap and that´s it, gimmick

 

Edited September 8 by Jukkiz

[Laurence]

I'm sure marines will get some new stuff next year, as part of the 40th annicversary.  Maybe that's where the new dread, rhino and land raider will pop up.

[Interrogator Stobz]

3 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Still holding out hope for a mid of edition release of a new land raider and venerable dread. But yeah.

Yeah, a new Landraider without tracks!

Then send the classics to Legends for me... along with the Rhino.

[Evil Eye]

5 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Yeah, a new Landraider without tracks!

 

Your wish is granted! They simply sell the current Land Raider without the tracks. The labour cost of removing the tracks from the sprue before packaging doubles the price.

[HeadlessCross]

8 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Your wish is granted! They simply sell the current Land Raider without the tracks. The labour cost of removing the tracks from the sprue before packaging doubles the price.

But think of the poor share holders

[Blindhamster]

6 hours ago, Halandaar said:

Yeah, the fact that a single unit (Devastator Squads) have had their role replaced by Desolators AND Hellblasters AND two different types of Eradicators AND arguably Lasfusil Eliminators AND are still lacking a direct replacement for Grav Cannons

this is basically how people ran devastators anyway. Now instead they just made it so different weapon configurations have different identities beyond “just the gun” they get a complimentary special rule and sometimes different armour to fit the theme.

 

not everyone’s cup of tea, but I personally liked it

[Halandaar]

4 hours ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

hah ahh aha h ah aah ahahahha aha h ha hah h 

Good one. 

Jokes aside I'd assume the price would be the same as current hardback — a fine example of shrinkflation. 

 

The first softback 11E Codex (Orks) is already out and it's £25 - about 1/3 less than the price of current 10E hardbacks (£38).

[Crimson Longinus]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

this is basically how people ran devastators anyway. Now instead they just made it so different weapon configurations have different identities beyond “just the gun” they get a complimentary special rule and sometimes different armour to fit the theme.

 

not everyone’s cup of tea, but I personally liked it

 

Yeah, I like the concept too. Its just that the desolators look hella stupid. If they wanted such massive missile launchers, I think they would have worked better as shouldermounted  weapons for gravis marines. 

[Mogger351]

20 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

The first softback 11E Codex (Orks) is already out and it's £25 - about 1/3 less than the price of current 10E hardbacks (£38).

They have other problems - it's easy to steal the codes as they're not shrink wrapped

[Griefbringer]

1 hour ago, Laurence said:

I'm sure marines will get some new stuff next year, as part of the 40th annicversary.  Maybe that's where the new dread, rhino and land raider will pop up.

 

Perhaps revisiting for the classic "Grav Attack Tank" would better fit the current space marine style:

 

http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rtxxgravtank/index.htm

 

The original model and RT-era rules appeared in WD 95. Updated rules for 3rd edition can be found in WD 252. It may not have had much coverage since then.

[Antarius]

8 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

They have other problems - it's easy to steal the codes as they're not shrink wrapped

Honestly, if someone is able to remove the book from its slipcase, leaf through it, write down the code and replace the slipcase in the store without being noticed, I don't think there's any stopping them if they want to steal that code. We're just going to have to hope they don't turn their mind to more serious crimes.

Edited September 9 by Antarius

[01RTB01]

9 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

They have other problems - it's easy to steal the codes as they're not shrink wrapped

That's not really an issue. Likelihood is small. Worst case scenario someone does, GW would send a new code. This feels like making up issues that aren't really there.

 

Conversely, it's great to see the bestiary section back. For new players it's massive for immersion in factions. Just one or two sentences in the 10th Ed books wasn't sufficient.

 

More content, cheaper books. Genuinely don't see where the issue is. 

[Mogger351]

3 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

That's not really an issue. Likelihood is small. Worst case scenario someone does, GW would send a new code. This feels like making up issues that aren't really there.

 

Conversely, it's great to see the bestiary section back. For new players it's massive for immersion in factions. Just one or two sentences in the 10th Ed books wasn't sufficient.

 

More content, cheaper books. Genuinely don't see where the issue is. 

A handful of people over the weekend were reporting finding books with the codes taken from inside stores or buying them, taking them home and the code is registered.

 

So it's not a none-problem even if not typical.