Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Mogger351]

19 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Yes.

Well, I'm glad selective theft isn't indicative of poor intent or morals.

 

Edit: just to clarify, I'm positing some holier than thou position, I own a small number of recast knowingly.

 

I just think that stealing an app unlocking code makes someone likely to be a cheater and a scoundrel but but committing ip theft is apparently fine.

 

I'd wager if there were a site that provided unlock codes illegally without directly involving another human, they'd be used by a lot of people as well.

 

There's a lot of hypocritical points in this. But who cares ultimately, hope your books haven't been pre scratch and sniffed if you buy them.

Edited Wednesday at 06:45 PM by Mogger351

[Orange Knight]

IP theft has the consequence of a business losing a potential sale.

 

Stealing a code from a book means a business will actually lose money they have spent on an item they stock, or a customer will lose the money they paid for it if the issue can't be rectified. It also causes hassle for all involved, costing more time and potentially more money.

 

The second is worse. It's literally the same as someone stealing cans of cola from a multi-pack in a supermarket, except what they are taking is of significantly greater value.

 

And yes, anyone who does this has dubious morals at best, and I don't waste my time on people with dubious morals. They are stealing rules - they probably bend the rules too.

 

And to go full circle, I also think that IP theft is bad. It's why I fully support 3D printed original models and conversion bits, but don't support outright copies of real models.

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:13 PM by Orange Knight

[Mogger351]

23 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

IP theft has the consequence of a business losing a potential sale.

 

Stealing a code from a book means a business will actually lose money they have spent on an item they stock, or a customer will lose the money they paid for it if the issue can't be rectified. It also causes hassle for all involved, costing more time and potentially more money.

 

The second is worse. It's literally the same as someone stealing cans of cola from a multi-pack in a super market, except what they are taking is of significantly greater value.

 

And yes, anyone who does this has dubious morals at best, and I don't waste my time on people with dubious morals. They are stealing rules - they probably bend the rules too.

 

And to go full circle, I also think that IP theft is bad. It's why I fully support 3D printed original models and conversion bits, but don't support outright copies of real models.

I respect the love and support of the local stores, they're vital to all of us really.

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

That's literally the opposite of the solution.

 

GW needs to spend longer writing, checking and playtesting the rules, then barring errata or FAQs, once the rules are out, they're final. Your Codex doesn't suddenly become obsolete the next week- no patches or rewrites or whatever. It's just done.

 

"But what if they didn't perfectly balance it for tournament play and they need to take the data from tourneys to-" I don't care. Tournament players are going to break the game no matter what, and should not be the main intended audience for the game. Catering to tournament play has only made the game immeasurably worse. Tournaments setting up their own internal restrictions or whatever is an acceptable cost for not forcing digitization onto the game.

Every time someone posts something like this, they completely forget how bad the game was in prior editions, where armies had flat out broken units (bet y'all forgot how ridiculous Grey Hunters were in 5th) or went decades without any updating (how many years did Dark Eldar go without an update?)

 

You can say "once rules are out, they're final" when you forget how the game once was. You're not allowed to hide behind "oh but game catering to tournaments bad" when it barely functioned anyway. 

[Lathe Biosas]

A quick note about people stealing codes and books: yes, it absolutely is a problem.

 

I used to work in Loss Prevention (and had the very cool job title of Store Detective), and theft is something large retailers account for when they set their margins. There are certain products where a certain amount of shrink is basically expected. Those little trinkets near the register? Some are going to walk out the door. Same with things like Bibles, porn, and wrestling memorabilia.

 

But other products are treated very differently. Trading cards, DVDs, limited-edition products, promotional items, etc. tend to have a much lower tolerance for theft, particularly when the valuable part can be removed without taking the entire product.

 

And bookstores and game stores absolutely have problems with this. Employee theft and employees enabling theft are also very real issues.

 

One particularly popular target in bookstores was magazines. Any polybagged magazine containing a DVD, special insert, or—God forbid—Pokémon/Yu-Gi-Oh/etc. cards was practically advertising itself as a target. People would slice open the packaging, steal the valuable contents, and leave the magazine behind.

 

So when someone says, “People don't steal those codes; that sort of thing never happens,” I wouldn't be so confident. If there's something valuable, easily removable, and relatively easy to steal without anyone noticing, someone is going to try it.

 

☆☆☆

 

And if you're really bored, I can regale you with the epic tales of my life as an undercover agent: sipping cold coffee for hours while reading basically every graphic novel Barnes & Noble and Books-A-Million had for sale.

 

[Evil Eye]

6 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Every time someone posts something like this, they completely forget how bad the game was in prior editions, where armies had flat out broken units (bet y'all forgot how ridiculous Grey Hunters were in 5th) or went decades without any updating (how many years did Dark Eldar go without an update?)

 

Putting aside the cherrypicking (5th edition and onwards is when the rot started to set in; mid-to-late 3rd through to 4th were the golden age of 40K) are we seriously pretending the game is good now? 

 

10 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

You can say "once rules are out, they're final" when you forget how the game once was. You're not allowed to hide behind "oh but game catering to tournaments bad" when it barely functioned anyway. 

I remember how it was. It was better, and part of that was down to books not being obsolete the day after you bought them.

[Ahzek451]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

That's literally the opposite of the solution.

 

GW needs to spend longer writing, checking and playtesting the rules, then barring errata or FAQs, once the rules are out, they're final. Your Codex doesn't suddenly become obsolete the next week- no patches or rewrites or whatever. It's just done.

 

"But what if they didn't perfectly balance it for tournament play and they need to take the data from tourneys to-" I don't care. Tournament players are going to break the game no matter what, and should not be the main intended audience for the game. Catering to tournament play has only made the game immeasurably worse. Tournaments setting up their own internal restrictions or whatever is an acceptable cost for not forcing digitization onto the game.

Why would they? GW blows up the game every 3 years and resets everything. It is a practice they insist on continuing, but the part that is a little maddening is when people think a new edition is natural evolution into something better. Some things do get better don't get me wrong, but by and large....its change for the sake of change(new and shiny syndrome) and it's not a natural evolution. I know, I have watched 10 versions of these things. 

[Zebukkuk]

12 hours ago, Griefbringer said:

And while the original Grav Attack Tank was based on a deodorant bottle, a couple of plastic spoons and bits box contents, the original instructions do not mention Zoids components. You may be incidentally thinking of the Ground-hog tunneller that was also covered in the same article, which was a rather straightforward conversion of a Slitherzoid toy (and looked nowhere as cool as the Grav Attack).

 

For the Grav-Attack in Rogue Trader they used several parts from the RZ-002 Guysack, namely the radar dish, the forward laser, and both gas tanks:

 

https://ani-mecha.com/products/rz-002-guysack

 

I’m not sure I miss the days when we could design our own vehicles with the Rogue Trader book, but it was fun for a bit while it lasted. Some family members and friends of mine used to cobble together kustom Ork vehicles from broken aircraft and tank models.

 

Anyway, who else is looking forward to the Space Marine codex? I’m a little curious but also nervous that the changes could upend the game for some fans.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I feel we are veering rather off topic with discussions on the comparative morality of code stealing and whether 11th edition is a better game than 4th.  While I definitely have opinions on both, this thread is not the place for me (or you) to share them.

 

Please ensure that all further posts are about the new Space Marines and/or their codex.

 

Dr. R.

Edited Wednesday at 10:53 PM by Dr_Ruminahui

[Lathe Biosas]

Just so I'm clear. When the new Codex is released, the other Space Marine Chapters (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, White Scars, etc.) will get a pdf update...

 

But we still need to buy the Space Marine codex to access our stuff on the app?

 

 

[01RTB01]

7 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Or they should stop trying to sell rules ro begin with and go 100% digital. 

Respectfully disagree.

 

Codexes are the gateway to an army. They hold fluff for units in addition to the rules. For little Johnny starting out, they're important.

 

If you switch to purely digital and codexes being pure fluff, you'd not see people buying them I'd wager. The game is more than rules ironically but removing the rules would affect sales.

 

As someone that plays, I can't keep things in my head as well as I could. As such, having hard copies of rules, detachment abilities, stratagems, primaries and secondaries means I can follow the game. If 40k went purely digital I'd be out. That's a personal view but I'd imagine I'm not the only one. 

[Zebukkuk]

3 hours ago, Lathe Biosas said:

Just so I'm clear. When the new Codex is released, the other Space Marine Chapters (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, White Scars, etc.) will get a pdf update...

 

But we still need to buy the Space Marine codex to access our stuff on the app?

 

They mentioned during the Space Marine Q & A stream that the divergent Chapter content will not be locked down by the Codex code. So for example you could run a pure Deathwing / Ravenwing army in the app without having to buy the Codex.

Edited Thursday at 02:16 AM by Zebukkuk
Fact Checked

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

Respectfully disagree.

 

Codexes are the gateway to an army. They hold fluff for units in addition to the rules. For little Johnny starting out, they're important.

 

If you switch to purely digital and codexes being pure fluff, you'd not see people buying them I'd wager. The game is more than rules ironically but removing the rules would affect sales.

 

As someone that plays, I can't keep things in my head as well as I could. As such, having hard copies of rules, detachment abilities, stratagems, primaries and secondaries means I can follow the game. If 40k went purely digital I'd be out. That's a personal view but I'd imagine I'm not the only one. 

Nothing is stopping you from printing the pages you need if you so desire hard copies. 

[Dudley Nightshade]

7 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Nothing is stopping you from printing the pages you need if you so desire hard copies. 

True and valid. 
 

Even still, personally, I'm in the dead tree camp. I will probably buy the new codex just for the lore. (I can't see myself playing this edition.) If it were purely digital, though, I wouldn't buy it. There is something special about the tangibility and permanence of a book that does not exist (for me) with digital media. 

[01RTB01]

34 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Nothing is stopping you from printing the pages you need if you so desire hard copies. 

 

There is if the digital rules are locked into the app. 

 

Ultimately you're free to disagree but it'd be nice if you could acknowledge that your point of view isn't the only one to exist. If they did PDFs that'd be fine. However, GW put everything on the app. 

 

You also ignore the whole issue of rules being a selling point of fluff that ultimately is the thing that keeps people playing certain armies.

[Zebukkuk]

3 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

If you switch to purely digital and codexes being pure fluff, you'd not see people buying them I'd wager. The game is more than rules ironically but removing the rules would affect sales.

 

Compared to the model kits, the profit margins on army and codex books is quite small for GW. They control the means of production for the models from start to finish. Much of the book printing is outsourced overseas.

 

I won’t be surprised if GW moves to digital only rules fully at some point. They are already moving in this direction.

[Antarius]

49 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Nothing is stopping you from printing the pages you need if you so desire hard copies. 

Would you find it satisfactory to be told you could just scan the books?

[Lathe Biosas]

1 hour ago, Zebukkuk said:

 

They mentioned during the Space Marine Q & A stream that the divergent Chapter content will not be locked down by the Codex code. So for example you could run a pure Deathwing / Ravenwing army in the app without having to buy the Codex.

 

Thank you very much!

[Mmmmm Napalm]

 

The magazine catch is now located near the index finger (like the godwyn bolter) instead of the front handgrip (like previous Bolt Rifles)

[01RTB01]

52 minutes ago, Zebukkuk said:

 

Compared to the model kits, the profit margins on army and codex books is quite small for GW. They control the means of production for the models from start to finish. Much of the book printing is outsourced overseas.

 

I won’t be surprised if GW moves to digital only rules fully at some point. They are already moving in this direction.

As I've said elsewhere, the fluff is as important as the rules. Get rid of the fluff and there will be an impact.

 

I play orks because the models are great but the background is what hooked me as an 11 year old. Digitising rules and removing them from the codex I'd wager would impact and I'm not just referring to the books. 

[MoriyaSchism]

31 minutes ago, Mmmmm Napalm said:

 

The magazine catch is now located near the index finger (like the godwyn bolter) instead of the front handgrip (like previous Bolt Rifles)

This got me thinking and I had to check the others and compare with the originals, Armageddon and Introductory sets. 
 

There's a guy with a reversed bolt rifle.

The other side of a normal bolt rifle.

The Stalker pattern rifle.

Auto bolt rifle.

 

Introductory set rifle.

Stalker pattern rifle.

 

The original Intercessor box.

It seems wildly inconsistent, but it doesn't bother me all that much. I've built my stuff around the bolt carbines from the Infiltrators set and those have the same controls as the Intercessor bolt rifle. I guess it's just a different style of manufacture and reloading drill involved. 

[Rhavien]

3 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

There is if the digital rules are locked into the app. 

 

Ultimately you're free to disagree but it'd be nice if you could acknowledge that your point of view isn't the only one to exist. If they did PDFs that'd be fine. However, GW put everything on the app. 

 

You also ignore the whole issue of rules being a selling point of fluff that ultimately is the thing that keeps people playing certain armies.

I still look into my old digital dexes from time to time on my phone for looking up squad markings and such things. I agree with you that it would be the wrong move to just put the crunch into the app, but I would prefer to have the book in digital form.

[Mogger351]

Tangential, but if my mental maths is right I think next Sunday is the earliest we get the preorder announcement, then a release first saturday of October.

 

It's going to go quiet I guess for a couple of weeks minimum though.

[Orange Knight]

7 hours ago, Lathe Biosas said:

Just so I'm clear. When the new Codex is released, the other Space Marine Chapters (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, White Scars, etc.) will get a pdf update...

 

But we still need to buy the Space Marine codex to access our stuff on the app?

 

 

 

I think this is likely.

 

The extra rules associated with the more divergent chapters are still linked to the main codex.

 

You'll have the rules free via PDF, but you can't make a list without access to the standard codex units.

[Orange Knight]

5 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

I used to think this was a terrible idea.

But for the last several/many/most Editions paper books contain far too many errors, and get FAQd and adjustments far too often.

 

 

This wouldn't be so bad if we could download a PDF of amended/updated unit rules and datasheets.

 

I'm not against sweeping changes if it helps to fix an army that doesn't function, but let me print out coherent updated rules.

 

I don't want to have to cross reference new weapon profiles and statlines by themselves. 

The app can be used of course, but nothing beats flicking through some actual pages - easier to read, quicker to access, etc etc