Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[gaurdian31]

7 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

Besides the specific units mentioned previously, what are the odds that the less-than-Codex-compliant Space Marine Chapters (ie. Dark Angels, Space Wolves) will have additional units (ie. Nephilim Jetfighter) moved to Legends.

 

Or will they dodge a bullet until their individual books are released?

I am guessing they will keep their individualized units until they get their codex/supplement releases otherwise I would think we would have already seen them sent to the Graveyard I mean Legends. 

[Lord Marshal]

11 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

Besides the specific units mentioned previously, what are the odds that the less-than-Codex-compliant Space Marine Chapters (ie. Dark Angels, Space Wolves) will have additional units (ie. Nephilim Jetfighter) moved to Legends.

 

Or will they dodge a bullet until their individual books are released?

 

With the Baal Predator called out as being safe for now, I'd be surprised if they cut anything that's currently still for sale - even if that won't spare them when the next retail version of their rules release.

 

I guess maybe the Black Templar-specific profiles of stuff like the Gladiator might go? 

 

What was less clear were the Grey Knights vehicles, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just let those stayed un-Legends'ed for the time being purely by virtue of their codex seemingly not being made redundant by the PDFs the way Chapter Supplements are. 

 

Edited September 10 by Lord Marshal

[HeadlessCross]

2 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

With the Baal Predator called out as being safe for now, I'd be surprised if they cut anything that's currently still for sale - even if that won't spare them when the next retail version of their rules release.

 

What was less clear were the Grey Knights vehicles, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just let those stayed un-Legends'ed for the time being purely by virtue of their codex seemingly not being made redundant by the PDFs the way Chapter Supplements are. 

 

To be fair, I don't feel Grey Knights getting access to the flyers outside the Storm Raven made much sense to begin with. However, that cat is out of the bag and now they're probably gonna lose those units when I know I've seen people give their flyers the proper paint treatment. 

[jaxom]

32 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

will they dodge a bullet until their individual books are released?

The Q&A they did all but said no non-Codex Space Marines units will be Legended until the book they are actually in gets replaced.

[Xenith]

2 hours ago, Lexington said:

needless complexity in their rules design. Not sure if that’s due to their actual preferences as game designers or because it’s what the fan base (especially the competitive crowd that they clearly design for) demands of them,

 

Podcasters rules coaches and professional 40k players feedback into rules design. The above podcasters make money from complex rules that they can then sell teaching courses for, Art of War, Vanguard Tactics among others. The 3rd party people that feedback into the rules team have a financial incentive to make the rules as complex as possible as it drives their revenue.

Edited September 10 by Xenith

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

do we really need something regarding Marine infantry sans IMPERIAL FISTS keyword (get an extra S4 AP- attack because they can spit acid? Do we really need some extra morale rules to represent ATSKNF or can we just give Marines better leadership stats

Agree on that. They tried to do this in 3rd ed, with things like purity seals being an optional add on upgrade to units that made them less likely to run, and frag and krak grenades being bought separately at 1 and 2 points each. At some point you get too granular. I think 10th and 11th are almost regressing back to where they have a special rule for each single feature on a model. 

[Ahzek451]

9 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

Podcasters rules coaches and professional 40k players feedback into rules design. The above podcasters make money from complex rules that they can then sell teaching courses for, Art of War, Vanguard Tactics among others. The 3rd party people that feedback into the rules team have a financial incentive to make the rules as complex as possible as it drives their revenue.

For sure a point that is not brought up enough. You can kinda mark the trend in with the changes of the rules to be complex/competitive focused with the rise of youtube commentary. 

[jaxom]

40 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

For sure a point that is not brought up enough. You can kinda mark the trend in with the changes of the rules to be complex/competitive focused with the rise of youtube commentary. 

The correlation is clear, though I'm hesitant to attribute cause. It could be the Occam's Razor: the smaller number of competitive players broadcast the tricks possible in the rules that are not obvious (like slingshotting, movement blocking by pivoting oval bases into non-narrative directions, etc.) and those spread into the larger player base; then rules writers responds by tightening up the rules. Rinse-and-repeat with each new set of rules and rules updates.

[HeadlessCross]

8 hours ago, jaxom said:

The correlation is clear, though I'm hesitant to attribute cause. It could be the Occam's Razor: the smaller number of competitive players broadcast the tricks possible in the rules that are not obvious (like slingshotting, movement blocking by pivoting oval bases into non-narrative directions, etc.) and those spread into the larger player base; then rules writers responds by tightening up the rules. Rinse-and-repeat with each new set of rules and rules updates.

This is absolute nonsense. The rules are NOT as complicated as they used to be. We still had people in 10th edition complaining the rules were too streamlined vs older editions. 

Edited September 11 by Xenith
Swearing

[jaxom]

6 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

This is absolute nonsense The rules are NOT as complicated as they used to be. We still had people in 10th edition complaining the rules were too streamlined vs older editions. 

It’s not about the rules, it’s about the language of the rules and what it allows. There’s numerous thread of rules, RAW, RAI, etc. so that’s all I’ll say here.

Edited September 11 by Xenith

[Blindhamster]

there have been conversations over RAW vs RAI for any game with rules since ever.

[Tastyfish]

6 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

This is absolute nonsense  The rules are NOT as complicated as they used to be. We still had people in 10th edition complaining the rules were too streamlined vs older editions. 

The 9th ed AdMech codex rises from the grave like clockwork...

 

But honestly the shift to the detachment system over the multiple pages of stratagems pretty much makes your point for you. The more complicated legalese language is there to be more definitive and possibly also make it easier to translate into other languages.

 

Correlation is not causation! I expect of the same timeframe as the rise of 40K coaches and YouTube channels you'd also see an increasing international market in non-Anglophone countries.

 

Edited September 11 by Xenith

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Tastyfish said:

The 9th ed AdMech codex rises from the grave like clockwork...

 

But honestly the shift to the detachment system over the multiple pages of stratagems pretty much makes your point for you. The more complicated legalese language is there to be more definitive and possibly also make it easier to translate into other languages.

 

Correlation is not causation! I expect of the same timeframe as the rise of 40K coaches and YouTube channels you'd also see an increasing international market in non-Anglophone countries.

 

The time frame correlates with greater use of the internet for ease of connection/communication and people have always been  willing to offer those services. 

[01RTB01]

6 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

This is absolute *****. The rules are NOT as complicated as they used to be. We still had people in 10th edition complaining the rules were too streamlined vs older editions. 

Necessary?

Edited September 11 by Xenith

[Antarius]

10 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Necessary?

Honestly, there's just no reason to engage.

I mean, we could go over all the ways in which the game has become more complicated (and there's nuance there, of course - I mean, I would agree that the game has become more streamlined in some ways, but playtime and the number of things to keep track of has pretty much only gone one way) but it's not like it'll make any difference.

[Xenith]

=][= Keep things civil =][=

[Rhavien]

I'm torn if I like new rules for (nearly?) all datasheets or not. You know, I play much less as I would like to and it's not that long ago that I felt used to all the rules for my faction. Now, the new codex will shake those up again. It's hard enough for me to differentiate between rule details going from edition to edition, but now my guys will again behave differently. Some abilities were built around oath and now it's gone. So what will replace it? I hope that the new ones will keep the spirit of it's predecessor and will not completely change the use of a unit.

[Orange Knight]

On the topic of rules being complicated or not, I would say that AdMech require more attention and bookkeeping to play correctly than any army in any wargame that I've played in the last 30 years...

[appiah4]

19 hours ago, Antarius said:

Well, it is certainly a valid choice to refrain from buying GW rules and miniatures in 2026. Other than that obvious fact, I don't really know what sort of reply you're looking for in a thread dedicated to new GW rules and miniatures?

 

The kind of reply I was expecting was, "Yeah, that sounds pretty stupid.  Let's not be stupid.  We are already paying up the ass for the models.  Let's tell GW to stop this horse:cuss: and make the rules free, with our wallets." 

 

I was probably expecting too much.

[Karhedron]

43 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

I hope that the new ones will keep the spirit of it's predecessor and will not completely change the use of a unit.

 

Usage for most common units will likely remain the same. Eradicators will still be close range tank/monster hunters, Phobos will still be sneaky bois etc. What will change is how that is expressed in the rules so certain tricks or combos may no longer work. If you want Eradicators for man-portable tank hunting then they will almost certainly still fill that role in 11th, even if they have different rules to do it. Now if you take Scouts specifically for their uppy-downy rule then you may have a harder time.

[Antarius]

45 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

I was probably expecting too much.

That sounds quite probable, yes.

[Evil Eye]

My personal take on the complexity is the game is still as complex as ever but far less intuitive. Part of that is down to the incredibly wordy writing intended to shut down any loopholes, but the increase in abstraction and growing gulf between the rules and the fictional battles they're supposed to simulate doesn't help either. Case in point- "the tank can't shoot units if the gun couldn't actually draw a line of fire to them", "models under this circle are hit by the blast" etc. There's also some added complexity that's the result of streamlining; for example every weapon being unique and having weird additional rules to compensate for the loss of wargear costs.

[Orange Knight]

34 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

My personal take on the complexity is the game is still as complex as ever but far less intuitive.

 

I agree with this. To go back to my AdMech exampe, it's a mish-mash of randomly overlapping abilities and non intuitive limitations that layer rules onto units under specific conditions, which change from turn to turn. It's a great deal of admin, and it almost gets to the point where datesheets and core unit rules become irrelevant.

The legalise language is so incredibly tedious as well. Just reading it is immersion breaking, and the amount of words you have to process for even the most basic of rules is tiresome.
 

Some aspects of the game ARE better, I don't dispute that. Some are significantly less fun than they used to be.

 

Edited September 11 by Orange Knight

[Karhedron]

28 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I agree with this. To go back to my AdMech exampe, it's a mish-mash of randomly overlapping abilities and non intuitive limitations that layer rules onto units under specific conditions, which change from turn to turn. It's a great deal of admin, and it almost gets to the point where datesheets and core unit rules become irrelevant.

 

I have the same issue with Eldar, I really do not like the Battle Focus mechanic because of the amount of book keeping required. You have an entire new set of tokens to manage which are like mini-CPs but do not carry over the from turn to turn. Many of the abilities they can be used on are very like Stratagems but you can't spend CPs on Agile Manoeuvres and you can't spend Battle Focus tokens on Stratagems. I appreciate the goal was to capture the "fast but fragile" nature of Eldar but the book keeping is a pain in the head. 

 

However, we are getting off-topic of the new Marine rules which fortunately look like they will not involve too much book-keeping and will be familiar to most players from 10th edition.

[Lord Marshal]

Detachment preview time.

Quote

We gave you a teaser of the detachment names when we revealed the Codex to the world, and here’s a quick look at what they do:

• Gladius Task Force – Four enhancements, six stratagems, and an army rule that gives balanced bonuses to anything you want to deploy.
• Assault Brethren – For the Space Marine who really wants to shove a chainsword into their foes. (Unique: Doctrines)
• Tactical Brethren – General abilities that help you survive longer at the front line. (Unique: Doctrines)
• Devastator Brethren – Shoot better, sometimes even in your opponent’s turn. (Unique: Doctrines)
• Tacticus Attack Force – Aggressive, mobile attacks with a slight preference for Assault Intercessors. (Unique: Tacticus)
• Tacticus Firestorm Force – Make the most of your Rapid Fire weapons to anchor your firing line. (Unique: Tacticus)
• Phobos Shadow Force – Stay hidden, even when you’re shooting people in the face. (Unique: Phobos)
• Phobos Shock Force – Launch deadly ambushes and evade any reprisal. (Unique: Phobos)
• Terminator Storm Force – The First Company hits faster, harder, and more reliably than ever.
• Stormlance Task Force – Mounted units and Speeders move extra fast. Like, really fast.
• Ironclad Champions – Powered up Dreadnoughts for people who always liked the Iron Hands.
• Gauntlet Task Force – Transport vehicles supporting the units that disembark from them.
• Ironstorm Spearhead – Make your tanks extremely accurate and more able to soak up damage.
• Gravis Linebreaker Force and Gravis Siege Force – See above! (Unique: Gravis)

 

 

 

Divergent chapter previews next week:
 

Quote

Finally, you may be wondering how the more independent Space Marine Chapters like the Blood Angels and Black Templars are going to work alongside the new Codex, and whether they’ll need to combine older rules with the new ones from the Codex.   In short, they won’t. The Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Deathwatch, and Space Wolves will be getting updates to tide them over before their own Codexes release. We’ll be talking more about these next week, so make sure you come back for more Space Marines intel.

 

 

Edited September 11 by Lord Marshal
Removing banned word