Custodes Rumours

[HeadlessCross]

1 minute ago, ThaneOfTas said:

 

9/10 times I dont have much fun against Tau

All Tau players are cowards unless they bring mostly Kroot or Farsight. 

 

On this, there can be no debate

[Nephaston]

10 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

We are living in a golden age of geekdom as there's so many games, so much choice etc. 

 

I certainly wouldn't advocate for armies being squatted but I do genuinely question why custodes were introduced to 40k in the first place. 

 

They make sense in heresy as they went and did stuff. In 40k I'd argue it doesn't make sense for them to be in the game. 

 

Despite the constant "balancing", points and so on, they're really not fun to play against. The abundance of 4++, access to 2s to hit and wound is boring to play against. 

 

Narratively and gaming wise, they honestly have a home in 30k but 40k, I'm not convinced. 

 

Arguably, just going by proportional numbers and being out and about in the galaxy, there shouldn't be playable armies beyond Imperial Guard, Orks, Tyranids, Lost and the Damned, and Necrons(maybe). Sisters of Battle, AdMech, and Marines should be a single unit choice at best for Guard, same with Daemons and Chaos Marines for LatD, and a single marine unit only ever for games 3000 points and up. No super heavies or knights or bigger ever unless it's an ork or tyranid walker or bio-titan.

Tau are only permitted in games centered around the immediate areas of the sphere expansions, no Squats unless it's in games settled around the coreward worlds, no Eldar unless it's set on Maiden Worlds or Craftworlds, no Dark Eldar unless it's one of the worlds with a webway gate or boarding action games (same with eldar corsairs, ork pirates, and imperial navy). 

Same for heresy games to a degree, most armies should be militia players, with marines being incidental and limited to a single unit per list since most of the out and about battles were human level, even if the spotlight only ever rests on marines.

 

Armies being too tough or unfun to play against is a rules writing issue. And one that I don't know if GWs rules writers are capable or willing to resolve.

[ThePenitentOne]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

They make sense in heresy as they went and did stuff. In 40k I'd argue it doesn't make sense for them to be in the game. 

 

 

The Indomitus Crusade put all hands on deck.  Humanity damn near got wrecked, and the galaxy is still in pieces.

 

Many people resisted the lore of 8th/9th because they hated Primaris. I took the other route and doubled down, because for my money, the WD Crusade rules for Torchbearer fleets was some of the best rules writing GW has ever done. And they don't work as well without Custodes- you can run them with just Greyshields and Admech, but they're cooler when the goldenfolk join. To me, these were rules were one of the most perfect examples of rules supporting lore, and in hindsight, I really wish more people had leaned in and tried it rather than standing on the outside and criticizing. I think a lot of people would have experienced the Primaris phenomenon differently if they had actually taken the time to have Admech and Custodes escort them across the galaxy to find, join and learn the ways of their host chapter rather than just "pay the points and add the choice meta units because WINNING!"

 

(Which is NOT saying I think that's what you, 01RTB01 have done- I have no idea how you play. But a great many Primaris haters never actually engaged with any of the Lore- they prejudged and rejected it. To be fair, if something similar had happened to a faction that I like, I might take exception... But I find Marines as exciting as watching paint dry, so the whole Primaris schism/ Torchbearer thing actually made them interesting enough to play for a year or so.)

 

Unfortunately, even though I not only accept but actively support the idea of Custodes being a part of 40k, I can't muster an ounce of excitement for a release that does nothing for SoS.

 

 

Edited Monday at 01:54 AM by ThePenitentOne

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, ThaneOfTas said:

If you cant figure out how to have fun against an army, then either get better at having fun, or accept that its just a part of the hobby that you aren't going to love.

 

There was a local guy who mainly played Custodes, and it was never fun for me any time we played, for the reasons others have mentioned.

 

I never saw it as my responsibility to figure out how to have fun playing games with him. Instead, I figured out how to kind of just not play games with him, by playing games with other people. I still saw him around plenty, playing games at the local store with his Custodes.

 

Eventually he moved to a different city. So... success?

[01RTB01]

4 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

 I'm not going to argue against their place in the game. If you cant figure out how to have fun against an army, then either get better at having fun, or accept that its just a part of the hobby that you aren't going to love.

 

As I did say, I wouldn't argue for them to be squatted. That wouldn't be right.

 

I'll merrily play anyone and enjoy the game. That doesn't mean that playing custodes is fun. Invariably it's always tournaments that I run into them. I don't see them locally as a casual force. "Get better at having fun" isn't really a debatable point and is a very odd way to go at this. You're welcome to disagree with me but I don't see why I should accept playing custodes to be a miserable experience. I've played against multiple people running them and it's always the same. They hit hard, don't really miss, have re rolls for days and don't die. I fail to see how that's fun for anyone and it won't be a problem unique to myself. 

[sitnam]

6 hours ago, Flaherty said:

My hope as well, but in 10th there were a host of CPs that were single-run only, e.g., Harlequins, Imperial Fists, etc. Typically disclosed but not always. This one just seems like too good a value to keep in stock!

I think those end edition CP were just a different form of combo boxes, which GW has been doing a ton of lately. I'd love for all of them to at least be available online, the Harley/Krieg/Kroot boxes were great for those subfactions. This new CP for Custodes seems like a replacement for last editions.

 

I have real hope for this editions Combat Patrols. This new one has a similar model count but with a decent big centerpiece model in the box vs just some dudes. Combat Patrols are infinitely more interesting to me when you have something big in the box,like a monster, walker, or tank (except the Rhino, but that's personal bias).

Edited Monday at 05:16 AM by sitnam

[Mogger351]

Personally the lack of fun into custodes comes from the "their basic dudes are so much better than mine. They're hard to kill and dead in return. My basic dudes might as well not apply", which if we're honest is the same ethos with knights.

 

Which is the same reason the recent marine changes suck, because compared to a little t3 1w 5+ save duders with a 1-2 shot S3-4 no ap gun, a marine might as well be a custode a lot of the time now.

 

So anyone who was content with t5 marines being "lore accurate" and dunking on basic xenos and human profiles shouldn't have room to complain.

 

Ignoring that, on a battlefield of billions of mortals, marines shouldn't be represented as an army, maybe as a singular squad of allies. But here we are.

[Lathe Biosas]

I've never seen this level of dislike for the Custodes before.

 

The usually despised armies I've encountered are the gimmick or static armies.

 

The unmoving IG or Tau players that plop down in one spot and refuse to move their models again until they are killed or the game ends and they have to put them back in their case.

 

Or, the Meta-chaser who uses some popular loophole in the game (that you know will be eratta'd soon, but this jackweasel, is going to abuse it until then).

 

But that's just my personal experience. 

[Mogger351]

15 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

I've never seen this level of dislike for the Custodes before.

 

The usually despised armies I've encountered are the gimmick or static armies.

 

The unmoving IG or Tau players that plop down in one spot and refuse to move their models again until they are killed or the game ends and they have to put them back in their case.

 

Or, the Meta-chaser who uses some popular loophole in the game (that you know will be eratta'd soon, but this jackweasel, is going to abuse it until then).

 

But that's just my personal experience. 

I think your mileage will vary from one board/internet hole to the next.

[Orange Knight]

What's bringing this animosity towards Custodes?

Is it their rules, their models or their updated lore?


But let's get back to topic. We should see some rules this weekend when the codex previews start dropping.

[Mogger351]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

What's bringing this animosity towards Custodes?

Is it their rules, their models or their updated lore?


But let's get back to topic. We should see some rules this weekend when the codex previews start dropping.

Mostly rules and lore. The idea that they don't belong on the tabletop because they're too few in number to feasibly be an army, that they should be on terra and that they're unfun to play into because things bounce off them then get slapped.

[Orange Knight]

On the subject of rules - I have no issue with what I've seen. We have Knight armies, we have Vehicle lists, we have Monster lists - all relatively low in number, stat check builds.
These guys will sit in that middle ground between elite infantry and monsters.

As for the lore - GW have been REALLY quiet about the recent lore "updates" relating to members of the order. I think they know their decision was very unpopular.
In terms of their general presence on the battlefield - their return to the setting as acting participants is pretty cool. The situation is dire, and they feature in some great stories.

Edited Monday at 10:14 AM by Orange Knight

[Lord Marshal]

Detachment preview.

 

Quote

Six of the 13 detachments available in the Codex have the Unique: Shield Host tag, five of which are themed after one of the main Shield Hosts laid out in the lore section.* The Aquilan Shield, for instance, plays a more defensive game, focused on occupying objectives and whittling down the enemy as they’re forced to come to you, while the aggressive Dread Host charges forwards as fast as possible to brutalise their foes in close combat.

 

Quote

• Guardians of the Throne – A big 3DP detachment giving balanced bonuses to most units.
• Aquilan Shield & Dread Host – See above below! (Unique: Shield Host)
• Emissaries Imperatus – Prioritise the mission, fight first, and ignore modifiers to hit and wound. (Unique: Shield Host)
• Emperor’s Chosen – Make your units more flexible and reliable, and ready a ka’tah mid-round too. (Unique: Shield Host)
• Shadowkeepers – Brawl in close combat and overwhelm your enemy. (Unique: Shield Host)
• Solar Watch – Move even quicker than usual, and flow into and out of engagement like water. (Unique: Shield Host)
• Auric Champions – Character models single out prey and show why they’re your army’s champions.
• Honoured Companions – Custodian Guard, Sentinel Guard and Wardens contest vital objectives.
• Lions of the Emperor – Unleash your Terminators. Deep Strike, charge, cause carnage, and split your Terminator units mid-battle.
• Might of the Moritoi – The galaxy’s best Dreadnoughts get escalating combat bonuses as they take damage.
• Grav-assault Force – Grav-tanks support your forces and outflank opponents to sneakily secure objectives.
• Null Maiden Vigil – The Sisters of Silence! Take one as your WARLORD with BATTLELINE Prosecutor squads.

 

Edited Monday at 10:59 AM by Lord Marshal

[jaxom]

I like how they brought the Shield Hosts back.

[Orange Knight]

Some of these rules are going to get pretty spicy.

-1 to be wounded when you're toughness 7 or 8... basically 90% of things will wound you on a 5+ or 6+, and the heaviest anti-tank weapons will wound you on a 4+

Edited Monday at 12:50 PM by Orange Knight

[Lord Blacksteel]

Have we seen an ability like Rapid Reactions before? The "shoot people when they run away from you" strat? I know there have been various ways to complicate fall-back moves but that one feels new to me.

[DemonGSides]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

What's bringing this animosity towards Custodes?

Is it their rules, their models or their updated lore?


But let's get back to topic. We should see some rules this weekend when the codex previews start dropping.

 

Couple of people are being loud about it but I really don't see the big concern with these Custodes.  Points will always be the deciding factor, but they've said a lot and shown a lot that they are basically the same wound pools just with increased Toughness.   There's still a lot of weaponry that will hurt them on 3's, and a lot of that weaponry is multiple damage which will chew em up easy enough.

They're definitely going to get a little tougher, but I do think that they do a lot less damage and so won't be clearing the board very quickly.  They can also be out OC'd relatively easy.  And a bad battleshock roll can really hurt them.

 

I'm not super worried; I also wasn't worried about the T5 marines the way some people are, and I believe most of that worry is generally overblown.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Couple of people are being loud about it but I really don't see the big concern with these Custodes.  Points will always be the deciding factor, but they've said a lot and shown a lot that they are basically the same wound pools just with increased Toughness.   There's still a lot of weaponry that will hurt them on 3's, and a lot of that weaponry is multiple damage which will chew em up easy enough.

They're definitely going to get a little tougher, but I do think that they do a lot less damage and so won't be clearing the board very quickly.  They can also be out OC'd relatively easy.  And a bad battleshock roll can really hurt them.

 

I'm not super worried; I also wasn't worried about the T5 marines the way some people are, and I believe most of that worry is generally overblown.

Tbh I am/was worried about the marine ones but the custodes shift is largely meaningless for everyone I think. All they're doing is maintaining rough status quo to the marine changes and as you say moving the wound numbers around to alter head count (which as a side note is exactly what I'd have advocated for marines). So there really is little cause for concern or action for most armies I think.

Edited Monday at 02:46 PM by Mogger351

[GenerationTerrorist]

I think the panic should wait until we see the point costs....If a 3-man squad of Custodian Guard is 180+ points, then that will reflect their stat-lines and abilities to a fair degree.

I also feel the most pertinent aspect of this is that the units are limited to 3-man squads, which makes them easier to focus down one by one. If they were allowed to remain as 5-man squads, then it would rightly be shouted about.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

Tbh I am/was worried about the marine ones but the custodes shift is largely meaningless for everyone I think. 

 

The shft up in Marine toughness and the strength of Bolters isn't as crazy when you look at it from the lens of the entire game.

 

Take a toughness 5 Marine with a Str5 Bolter. Now compare him to a toughness 3 Guardsman. The Bolter wounds the Guardsman on a 3, same as before, and the Guardsman wounds the Marine on a 5, same as before.

What is a lot more impactful is the more regular damage being provided by weapons such as Meltas, and the strong detachment bonuses and how they can be mixed.

[HeadlessCross]

49 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The shft up in Marine toughness and the strength of Bolters isn't as crazy when you look at it from the lens of the entire game.

 

Take a toughness 5 Marine with a Str5 Bolter. Now compare him to a toughness 3 Guardsman. The Bolter wounds the Guardsman on a 3, same as before, and the Guardsman wounds the Marine on a 5, same as before.

What is a lot more impactful is the more regular damage being provided by weapons such as Meltas, and the strong detachment bonuses and how they can be mixed.

Especially since the extra AP-1 is mostly on units that had few shots to begin. 

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The shft up in Marine toughness and the strength of Bolters isn't as crazy when you look at it from the lens of the entire game.

 

Take a toughness 5 Marine with a Str5 Bolter. Now compare him to a toughness 3 Guardsman. The Bolter wounds the Guardsman on a 3, same as before, and the Guardsman wounds the Marine on a 5, same as before.

You do realise that S4 and S5 weapons, that aren't space marine bolters, are still by far the most numerously fielded weapons right?

[DemonGSides]

19 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

You do realise that S4 and S5 weapons, that aren't space marine bolters, are still by far the most numerously fielded weapons right?

 

What does this mean (Most numerously fielded weapons) and what data are you using to back up this assertion?

Feels like an ESPN statistic that is almost impossible to verify but sounds good when trying to make a generalized point.

Edited Monday at 05:54 PM by DemonGSides

[Mogger351]

8 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

What does this mean (Most numerously fielded weapons) and what data are you using to back up this assertion?

Feels like an ESPN statistic that is almost impossible to verify but sounds good when trying to make a generalized point.

Look across the entire games range, most armies core units pack in s4/5 weapons and are fielded in larger numbers than a marine is.

[DemonGSides]

55 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Look across the entire games range, most armies core units pack in s4/5 weapons and are fielded in larger numbers than a marine is.

 

I don't think that's true, or really all that relevant.

In the world you've devised in your head, these marine changes happen and NO ONE changes their army comps to combat them.  I just don't see that happening, not that I think armies will need to do THAT much adapting.  As has been broken down plenty of times in the many threads that aren't a Custodes thread (And therefore nothing to do with the Marine changes, but here you are, arguing it all over again), the changes effect a narrow band of breakpoints and can be adapted to.

 

SO INSTEAD of clogging up ANOTHER thread (One that doesn't even have Space Marines in the title, for shame), maybe just move on from this?  Especially if we're just going to say made up statistics.