Custodes Rumours

[Borbarad]

A bit surprised how quickly the Custodes codex is following the SM release; will there be space for an other 11th edition codex before Xmas?

[01RTB01]

Honestly, they're hitting on 2s, why do they need access to being able to re roll misses in combat? 

[Mogger351]

3 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Honestly, they're hitting on 2s, why do they need access to being able to re roll misses in combat? 

There's 2 approaches to this question.

 

1. They're the finest soldiers ever made and hence should never really miss anyway, so this is as near to statistically perfect as the system allows.

 

2. Too many people have chased the power creep train too long, constantly wanting less variance and whatever they perceive to be their 'specialists' to hit better and better to the point most of the dice values are irrelevant and most of the game is squashed between 4+ and 2+ with rerolls.

[Lord Marshal]

"New Custodes: What you need to know" Legends'ing confirmations basically.
 

Units featured in the new Codex for the first time:

• Sentinel Guard Sodality 

• Custodian Guard Sodality 

• Aquilon Terminators with Solarite Power Gauntlets 

• Aquilon Terminators with Solarite Power Talons 

• Venatari with Kinetic Destroyers 

• Venatari with Verutum Lances 

• Telemon Heavy Dreadnought 

• Contemptor-Galatus Dreadnought 

• Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought 

• Gyrfalcon Jetbike Sodality 

• Pallas Grav-attack 

• Coronus Grav-carrier 

• Caladius Grav-tank 

• Caladius Annihilator Grav-tank 

"Note: The Custodian Guard are now referred to as either a Sentinel Guard Sodality or Custodian Guard Sodality, depending on which weapons they have. However, they’re functionally the same,* so if you have the older miniatures, you can still use them."

 

Units from the previous Codex that are staying:

• Trajann Valoris 

• Shield-Captain 

• Shield‑Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour 

• Shield‑Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike 

• Blade Champion 

• Custodian Wardens 

• Allarus Custodians 

• Vertus Praetors 

• Knight-Centura 

• Prosecutor Squad 

• Vigilator Squad 

• Witchseeker Squad 

• Anathema Psykana Rhino 

"The following units are not in the Codex, but will be supported by digital datasheets and are still legal for matched play."

 

Imperial Armour

• Ares Gunship

• Orion Assault Dropship
   

Units moving to Warhammer Legends

• Aleya

• Valerian

• Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought

• Venerable Land Raider
   

Units moving from Imperial Armour to Warhammer Legends

• Custodian Guard Sodality with Adrasite Spears

• Custodian Guard Sodality with Pyrithite Spears

• Sagittarum Custodian Sodality

 

Edited September 25 by Lord Marshal

[jaxom]

16 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Honestly, they're hitting on 2s, why do they need access to being able to re roll misses in combat? 

I ran the math because I was also curious about this. A squad of the new Custodian Guard Sodality, not on an objective, but with re-roll 1s to hit gets 2.5 more hits. Against new MEQ, that becomes one additional casualty. One average, the re-roll won't matter against MSU. With the objective buff, the re-roll 1s to hit gets 3 additional hits. Not so useful compared to previously, but noticeable against T4 and lower targets.

 

Assuming I did my math right, 3 Custodian Guard with all those buffs kill 9.3 MEQ on average in melee. They kill 6.7 MEQ with none of the buffs in melee. To me, that feels right, a 2.3 to 3.1 kill per Custodes against Marines in melee.

[01RTB01]

57 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

There's 2 approaches to this question.

 

1. They're the finest soldiers ever made and hence should never really miss anyway, so this is as near to statistically perfect as the system allows.

 

2. Too many people have chased the power creep train too long, constantly wanting less variance and whatever they perceive to be their 'specialists' to hit better and better to the point most of the dice values are irrelevant and most of the game is squashed between 4+ and 2+ with rerolls.

 

I think the flaw is within the system. The d6 mechanics can't cope with the "best of the best". Narratively a small amount of marines can take over planets and that isn't reflected in the game.

 

I appreciate what custodes are supposed to be and I still stand by the fact they shouldn't be in 40k. Arguably custodes are being ruled as marines probably should be. 

[Sete]

Man im so salty with the loss of the stumpy custodes. Now dont even want to buy wardens or bikes cause i guess they are next on the chopping block.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

I think the flaw is within the system. The d6 mechanics can't cope with the "best of the best". Narratively a small amount of marines can take over planets and that isn't reflected in the game.

 

I appreciate what custodes are supposed to be and I still stand by the fact they shouldn't be in 40k. Arguably custodes are being ruled as marines probably should be. 

I'd argue the opposite, maybe marines should finally be acknowledged as the yardstick for 40k and move to base hitting on 4s with everything so custodes can hit on 3s etc. And use the full limited spread a d6 presents instead of ignoring half of it within he game.

[Borbarad]

A bit sad with the Sagittarum Custodian Sodality going to legends. They were my favorite Custodes unit; but i guess they will be released sometimes in the next 5 years, when a new codex will be due.

[01RTB01]

33 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

I'd argue the opposite, maybe marines should finally be acknowledged as the yardstick for 40k and move to base hitting on 4s with everything so custodes can hit on 3s etc. And use the full limited spread a d6 presents instead of ignoring half of it within he game.

I could go with that. Id just love to see the end of re rolls and 2s to hit, 2s to wound. There's (imo) too much of it in the game. 

[GenerationTerrorist]

Farewell, my sweet Venerable Land Raider.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

I think the flaw is within the system. The d6 mechanics can't cope with the "best of the best". Narratively a small amount of marines can take over planets and that isn't reflected in the game.

 

D6 has many flaws... but it's also the best form of dice to use for this game.

It throws crushing failures and stunning successes at you at the most satisfying rate, and it just feels great.

Also, it's easy and quick to read. 

[jaxom]

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

D6 has many flaws... but it's also the best form of dice to use for this game.

It throws crushing failures and stunning successes at you at the most satisfying rate, and it just feels great.

Also, it's easy and quick to read. 

It’s been very interesting watching TournamentTubers talk around how they feel about Marine datasheets being better but losing all the things that smoothed the randomness out a dice game.

[HeadlessCross]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

D6 has many flaws... but it's also the best form of dice to use for this game.

It throws crushing failures and stunning successes at you at the most satisfying rate, and it just feels great.

Also, it's easy and quick to read. 

D6 allows little granularity, and this is not some niche hobby anymore. The D6's time is done, and it's time for the D12 to shine. 

[DemonGSides]

6 hours ago, GenerationTerrorist said:

Farewell, my sweet Venerable Land Raider.

Still on the app, still usable in 99% of your games.

[SvenIronhand]

9 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

Narratively a small amount of marines can take over planets and that isn't reflected in the game.

 

And it shouldn’t be.

[Mogger351]

7 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

D6 allows little granularity, and this is not some niche hobby anymore. The D6's time is done, and it's time for the D12 to shine. 

The only way a d12 would shine is if they used it to get rid of rerolls completely.

 

But even then if you only translate current units to their respective numbers and tweak a little for the intervening new values, you'd essentially still not use 50% of the range.

 

Without rerolls there are 6 values on a d6 and oddly everyone only wants things to work on a 3+. Fix that first.

[HeadlessCross]

9 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

The only way a d12 would shine is if they used it to get rid of rerolls completely.

Oh no, the horror

[Mogger351]

9 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Oh no, the horror

Ok so we're left at:

1 = fail

2+ = primarch/custode level character

3+ = custodes, marine/specialist level characters

4+ = marines + other elite units

5+ = above average but not elite stuff aka kasrkin, base eldar etc

6+ = Guard/baseline/the good shooting

7+ = everything else

8-12 = "what is your purpose" "to not exist"

 

Which is where we are now with rerolls filling the gaps between the integers. But that doesn't seem worth transitioning to a whole other dice set which are typically larger and not as easy to read at a glance.

Actually if you squint enough, you can pretty much nearly manage that on a D6 now without rerolls if people would kindly accept reduced lethality.

Edited September 26 by Mogger351

[Evil Eye]

The real flaw is that Custodes are playable as an army in 40K to begin with but we're not ready to have that conversation yet.

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Ok so we're left at:

1 = fail

2+ = primarch/custode level character

3+ = custodes, marine/specialist level characters

4+ = marines + other elite units

5+ = above average but not elite stuff aka kasrkin, base eldar etc

6+ = Guard/baseline/the good shooting

7+ = everything else

8-12 = "what is your purpose" "to not exist"

 

Which is where we are now with rerolls filling the gaps between the integers. But that doesn't seem worth transitioning to a whole other dice set which are typically larger and not as easy to read at a glance.

Actually if you squint enough, you can pretty much nearly manage that on a D6 now without rerolls if people would kindly accept reduced lethality.

This still seems a bit of a "I made up a thing and this is why it's bad" when the actual breakdown would probably put guardsmen in the 1/3rd section, not 1/2 section.

Like a guardsman is only getting a 50/50 on the hit right now if you put effort into them.  Why are they suddenly so much better in your made-up world?  If the point is to make shooting more granular, why would you default right back to basically the same granularity we have now, and then ALSO increase lethality?

Edited September 26 by DemonGSides

[DemonGSides]

Could very easily be:

1+; never
2+; Primarch/Super Elite tier

3+: Boss Characters 

4+: Super elite units

5+: Baseline Marine (This does make them worse, which solves your lethality concern)

6+: Premium non-marine infantry (Kasrkin etc)

7+: Sisters level stuff

8+: Baseline Humanity

9+: Something that's super strong but doesn't hit consistently  (Artillery?)

10+: Trash like Gretchin

11+: Civilians

12+: a beam falling from the ceiling, idk.
 

8 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

The real flaw is that Custodes are playable as an army in 40K to begin with but we're not ready to have that conversation yet.

 

People tear their hair out when you say "titanic units shouldn't be in the game."

 

No way people are willing to have a conversation about a force that isn't that hard to get rid of.

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

"titanic units shouldn't be in the game."

Also correct (at least outside of Apocalypse).

[Nephaston]

Eh, if it can feasibly appear in fluff it should feasibly appear on the tabletop. I just wish that courtesy extended to; Lost and the Damned guard regiments, extended cultist units, tau auxiliaries, unaffiliated xeno creatures, mercenary forces, pirates beyond eldar, red corsairs and the occasional ork, dark mechanicum, actual undivided daemon princes outside of be'lakor, xenarites, bio-titans, severan dominate or other non-imperial human holdouts, and probably even more stuff I can't even recall rn.

 

But, almost back on topic, I'd actually love to have a single aquilan shield custodian character on the Agents of the Imperium roster who's only job is to bodyguard a character until they reach the enemies deployment zone for an action and then promptly leave their charge behind to die.

[HeadlessCross]

53 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Also correct (at least outside of Apocalypse).

Who complained about Baneblades being in regular games?