New Space Wolf Codex

[Battle_Wolf]

scouts dont need to be changed, their perfect already. the smaller unit size fits better IMO as they are elite infiltrators

[Lord Ragnarok]

Point made, however, I consider 1K Sons (troops) to be sorcerous constructs, so I wouldn't think they would have any feelings or animosity...they just trudge along, shoot, and swing back when assaulted. but I guess you can't say, "only 1k Sons' lords or champs can hit back at 3+..."

 

Anyhoo, does anyone else think our scout units should be a little larger?

 

I think that is a good point about the Rubric Marines. I've always assumed they were automatons without feeling. I think game would make it imbalanced though if you said not troops but AC's can hit on 3's.

 

 

I think scouts are fine with the size. Fluff-wise they would be is small packs. Additionally, they already make a huge impact with their small size and how they can be equipped. Other than drop pods I don't know any other unit that can come in on the enemies board. More scouts seems like they'd be overpowered.

[Volkainen]

I agree on the Scout size as well. The smaller pack gives them more of the ninja feel that makes them so awesome already. Plus, as mentioned earlier, they have a huge impact as is.

 

On top of that, I already made 4 custom scouts, I don't want to make 6 more, LOL.

[The Angelus Sanctus]

I agree that the SW/DA thing, although not out dated, but by the current rules, i think takes it a step too far. As Lord Ragnarok stated, the fued is more based on a healthy rivalry. Background wise, yes the fued is explained quite clearly, but it isnt to the degree that the rules portray it as. So in the end, i say yes, the TS/SW thing should stand, although ThralKhan made a very good point about the Rubric Marines so that adds a lil twist to things.

 

Alas, we'll see, and perhaps we may see some bits and pieces in the DA codex in regards to it.

 

 

As for Wolf Scouts, they are fine as it is. They are elite 'loners' at what they do, which suggests that packs will be small, unlike blood claws and grey hunters, where majority of the pups are of the socialble kind. Plus Wolf Scouts arent listed as 0-1. If you want more scouts, get another pack, just keep in mind only ONE squad will benefit from 'OBEL'.

[jadex1]

man the wolves where my first army and my only army, i have stuck with them for about 4yrs, and if i had money to start a new army i would poor more of it in to my wolves, just because i can make them so strong and verstile, if your wondering ya i have about 8,000 points of models, its alot ya, and all painted, and painted nicely. i cant wait to see what comes out for us, i keep seeing you guys ask for jump packs, spacewolves dont like jumppacks if you read next to thing in the codex it says why, i belive its the same reason they dont use teleports, they dont trust them or like them. i can see us getting some uber powerful stuff, remember SW are one of GWs favorite armies, they wont mess us up. and they know if they do thell have hell to do deal with.

 

man the wolves where my first army and my only army, i have stuck with them for about 4yrs, and if i had money to start a new army i would poor more of it in to my wolves, just because i can make them so strong and verstile, if your wondering ya i have about 8,000 points of models, its alot ya, and all painted, and painted nicely. i cant wait to see what comes out for us, i keep seeing you guys ask for jump packs, spacewolves dont like jumppacks if you read next to thing in the codex it says why, i belive its the same reason they dont use teleports, they dont trust them or like them. i can see us getting some uber powerful stuff, remember SW are one of GWs favorite armies, they wont mess us up. and they know if they do thell have hell to do deal with.

[littlbitz]

I was thinking about this thread the other night, and about alot of the discussion about Furious charge, Counter Attack and some of the other Veteran Skills and how they fit in with the Space Wolf Feel.

 

Anyways, the original thought for me was, how should Furious charge fit into the Space Wolf army if at all...

 

I really think that gaining Furious Charge, especially if at the expense of our Counter Attack would cause the Wolves to lose alot of our uniqueness.

 

I also got to thinking on our Independant Characters and how they Don't have the influence over thier Troops like our Vanilla Brethren.

 

What if to bring things inline a bit these were combined?

 

I would suggest something along the lines of "Furious Counter attack". A unit with this ability would benefit from the +1S and +1I for models that make a counter attack move to get into close combat. This would represent the furiousness of the wolves and the intensity of thier pack like mentality.

 

This could be purchased as an ability for ICs like Wargear, or purchased as a Vet Skill.

 

I think this would also add some very interesting tactical challenges to Armies that are used to just charging us with thier Uber command Squads and using our own Counter Attack ability against us to get more models into base to base with thier characters.

 

any thoughts?

[Battle_Wolf]

;) +1 on I and S while being charged? ^_^ I feel that is a bit harsh.

 

I personally feel we dont need furious charge, that would make us unique :D lol. (since everyone can have it now)

[Volkainen]

I would suggest something along the lines of "Furious Counter attack". A unit with this ability would benefit from the +1S and +1I for models that make a counter attack move to get into close combat. This would represent the furiousness of the wolves and the intensity of thier pack like mentality.

 

This could be purchased as an ability for ICs like Wargear, or purchased as a Vet Skill.

 

I do like this idea, it does add some flavor back into Counter Attack for the Wolves.

 

I also have something else to propose (please don't kill me)......I don't know that the HQ/750 is that important. Why do I say this? Simply because, in a wolf pack there is one alpha male, and one alpha female. Now I DO like being able to take the extra HQ's, most of the time. However, if I'm running my SW's as a "true" wolf pack, I like the idea of a single HQ leading them.

 

What would suit better (maybe, this is just a thought after all) is the ability to replace that extra HQ slot with another slot on the FOC. Would that be too overpowering. I don't think so.

 

What do you think?

[DepthCharge]

Remember guys, for suggestions to be considering honestly and critically, we have to maintain some semblance of game balance, even in our wildest fantasies regarding the codex. Otherwise, we'll suffer under a deluge of power-gaming types who chose our beloved wolves simply because it nets their ego more wins, rather than for the cool fluff and models that provide the backbone of a force that I (we) have spent years playing.

 

Furious Counter-charge? What's the downside? Why wouldn't other forces get it, and how does this not constitute Codex creep (the theory where each codex is more powerful and lethal than the last)?

 

Space Wolves should be unique, should be different from Codex (IMO). Since GW has taken a good portion of our rules and integrated them into other forces, I think a lot of their ideas for us were quite good. So this next edition around, their ideas should continue to focus on gameplay-affecting methods of bringing SW fluff to the table.

 

I like 1 HQ per 750. While it may not be one Alpha male, there's little debate as to who the Alpha male is in any given force. The setup reminds me more of a council-style of leadership, one where the leader takes into account the viewpoints from different subordinates and considers them in order to put together the best plan of action.

 

Anyways, I'm getting sidetracked. What I'd like to see for our rules is more methods and options to bring our fluff to the table (fighting style, strategies, tactics, etc.). Perhaps army archetypes, in a fashion similar to Black Templar vows or Imperial Guard doctrines, to predispose a force towards a kind of tactic. For example...

 

Glory style: All infantry models and walkers gain 'Fleet of Foot', but the army cannot use transports or tanks of any kind (Dreadnaughts ok).

 

Cunning wolf style: No transports, Grey Hunters can infiltrate, but Blood Claws become 0-1.

 

Iron Wolf style: Rhinos are slightly cheaper (or tougher and more expensive), but mandatory.

 

Sky Wolf style: Drop pods are mandatory for all units, but you can re-roll reserve rolls.

 

Stalking wolf style: All infantry (again), but Space Wolf units within cover are targeted as though in Night Fight.

 

The main thing that I'd like to see fixed for Space Wolves in the next codex is our methods for reaching close combat. As is, we're stuck with rhinos or drop pods. Drop pods aren't bad (they're certainly better than rhinos), but they're only one option. Rhinos can be made into death traps if your opponent is smart, with relatively little you can do about it (aside from swear to Russ that you'll buy more terrain next time). Land Raiders are really expensive ($ and point-wise), and we don't have the numbers of the tyranids or the speed of the 13th Co. to footslog.

 

So, what can we do to get up close, where we like it?

 

1.) Rhinos/Razorbacks could be made safer/better. Perhaps SW pay more and get AV12 rhinos, or rhinos with a Land Raider-esque 'assault ramp'.

 

2.) Drop pods work fine as they are, although more options from controlling the timing of their arrival would be nice.

 

3.) Footslogging could be made feasible, either a.) by increasing the speed at which our infantry move, b.) increasing the resistance of our infantry to enemy firepower, or c.) increasing the numbers of our infantry.

 

Honestly, I'd like a 'tougher' Space Wolf force. Plenty of forces out there are really offensively powerful, but their basic marine remains just that, a basic, T4 Sv 3+ marine. Perhaps due to the conditions of Fenris and the method in which we train our recruits, Space Wolves are T4(5). As is, we don't have any loyalists that compare to the Death Guard in terms of toughness, so I think that could be an apt condition of having 'True Grit'. I wouldn't want a second wound for our troops, because that would be costly and complicated (although it would provide an interesting parallel between ourselves and the 1k sons).

 

More defensively oriented forces promote longer, more strategic games, and you get more of a personal attachment to each unit, as they're 'in the spotlight' longer before they're wiped off the board. Hell, I'd gladly pay 23 points per Bolter-wielding Grey Hunter if they were T4(5) and could march up the field, taking up positions and shrugging off hits.

[littlbitz]

I certianly hope I didn't sound as if I thought that the "furious counter charge" should go right into the new Codex, or even sound like it was on my wish list there DC. It really was a thought in an effort to stay in the spirit of the Wolves. I was just Brain Storming some ideas in my head and thought I'd throw it out there.

 

The down side would be that it probably would only be available to IC so only packs they are attached to would be able to benefit, plus it has limited applications, as you have to be charged for it to be any good.

 

Really, I don't think this would constitute codex creep at all. It certianly isn't more powerful than a command squad with furious charge, litanies of hate and fearless charging in on ya (ever been on the recieving end of a charge by a command squad with a Chappy, commander with Lightning claws, termie honors and furious charge? it will wipe out an entire pack before you can even swing most times), but it does give that squad pause to think wether or not its worth the trade off.

 

Plus its not the whole pack that would gain the benefit, only those who moved in order to effect a counter charge would gain the bonus, so there are ways to easily defeat the skill.

 

For us our ability to furiously defend our positions would be the trade off for our more veteran troops, forcing those close shoot-outs and defending when charged.

 

It mentions in the 3rd ed. codex, that our thoughts on a good defense are a good offense, and with our Pack like mentality and that we fight with the cunning of the wolf not the madness of a rabid dog. I just thought it suitable to us as a chapter.

 

but like I said, its just some random ramblings that havent even been thought out enough to be playtested at this point. (or if it is even worth the effort to try it.)

 

Ah hell, truth be told I'd be happy with the same ole codex with some new Wargear to reflect the New Space Marine codex and a Shiney new cover. There done new Space Wolf book ^_^

[Lord Ragnarok]

Hmmm, the "fight with the pack mentality" gave me an idea. It would be cool if our units got a bonus for staying within "X" amount of inches of one another. What that bonus could be I'm not sure. But would define our pack mentality further.

[Battle_Wolf]

how about +1 to morale checks if within 12" of a friendly unit not in combat.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I like that BW! :D Especially since nilla marines get 10 when a Chapter Master is in the Army. I think that would be a good equiv but still fluffy. Maybe even get rid of the "in combat" restriction to make it even more on par with the nilla marines. OR maybe no LD modifier but a +1 add to assault range ^_^ ?

[space wolf]

spacewolves dont like jumppacks

 

i disagree, the 2nd ed codex, the source of most SW fluff, had jumpacks...

 

anyway, i like this train of thought on the toughness, though I worry that that may be a little unbalanceing...i can just picture a poor IG or DE player trying to kill marines with their strength 3 weapons.

[Wolf Lord Duregar]

Gotta say I like the idea littlbitz, otherwise there will hardly be any more cool Space Wolf special rules for the vanillias to nick from us when they get a new Codex..! :P :D ;)

 

*Sounds of a big can of worms being opened...*

 

I have another, probably controversial idea... ;) My view of how the Space Wolves should be;

 

basically, put both the 13th Co. and the regular list in a blender and mix them up. That would make the list more like it was in the past, in my humble opinion... The Space Wolves were the close combat Chapter and were quite a lot better than any other (loyalist) Space Marine Chapter in close combat, I

[Megalodon]

I

[DepthCharge]

littlbitz, in no way did I mean my post to be negatively critical of your idea, I was just giving voice to thoughts in my head as well.

 

That said, now that you've fleshed out the idea a little more, I will say that I like it more. The main reason why I took exception to it was that a furious counter-charge is a pretty powerful ability, and would have some effects on gameplay (playing Devil's Advocate here, remember that I do like the idea :wink:).

 

Units with furious counter-charge could be equipped with a whole load of firepower, so much so that your opponent is forced to charge the unit. Then, in close combat, the SW can be loaded out there too to maul any opponent who charges us (moreso than normal). We're still forced to get close, and we wouldn't get the ability if we charged, so we'd be trading off our charge to bait our opponent into charging us. Interesting dynamic... *rubs beard*

 

I guess the ability could be made quite fluffy, and it would change the fighting style of the wolves into a slightly more thoughtful type of assault, one where you engage in mind games with your opponent, and even close combat armies are wary of charging us. That ability should have a price, and I think that simply making it an army rule and then tacking on an extra point to the basic Blood Claw/Grey Hunter/Wolf Scout units would suffice (since Long Fangs can't counter-charge and IC's are, well, IC's).

[frostclaw222]

Here's a thought on the IP that I've been mulling over most of the day:

 

Make him just like the Codex techmarine, with the exception that his weaponry becomes a thunderhammer and power weapon. Same options available for loadout of wargear. Also, make him an IC HQ unit, and allow for him to choose between the servitors or a retinue of Wolf Guard Bodyguards.

 

The reasons for these small cosmetic changes? With a servo harness or either retinue, he'll still have plenty of dakka in the shooting phase. But this allows for him to be more flexible of a close combat monster (TH and PW), and it permits the IP to function as an alternative to the multitude of WGBLs when larger games are played.

 

Thoughts?

[DepthCharge]

That's an interesting idea, but the one that gets stuck in my craw is the IP as HQ option.

 

I do like the idea of a core trio of Priests, Wolf, Rune, and Iron, marching across the field to deliver a metric funkton of whoopass to my opponent, all the while supporting surrounding units.

 

However, the fluff on Iron Priests doesn't seem to imply that they're 'take charge' types, but rather that they are 'feared and aloof'. Along those lines, I like your suggestions for the most part, save for the fact that I would make it so that the Iron Priest could only be taken in forces over a 1000 points, say.

 

Basically, something to prevent the Iron Priest from being the first, only, or 'primary' HQ. I have no problem with him being an HQ, I just think there should be some restrictions on it (although that's just a thought, and is based on my sense of the fluff).

[frostclaw222]

Gotta agree with everything you just said, DC.

 

Maybe something like he can count as an HQ in games over 1500 pts? That would allow for the additional HQ, and avoid the possibility you spoke of.

 

I'd speak more on the subject, but at present I'm engaging in that most Fenrisian tradition, Beer Pong. It enhances the Long Fang's skill with indirect fire, while permitting our favorite pasttime. :devil:

[ThralKhan]

As I was going over some of my older models, I came up with another idea, specifically for the Iron Priest:

Not only make him an HQ or Elite option, but also give him the access to Rapiers. So here's my food-for-thought:

 

Iron Priest

equipped with Thunder hammer, bolter, servo arm, auspex, and artificer armor

may take either:

4 tech servitors which are equipped with power weapons and grant the IP +1each to D6 repair roll

-or-

take up to 3 Rapier platforms manned with 2 servitors each

- the Rapiers would use the same rules as Eldar platforms (stay within 2" and roll between servitors and platforms when hit) but if a platform is destroyed, the servitor can move to another functioning Rapier. As long as there is one servitor manning a Rapier, it can fire (BS3). Of course, the IP can still repair a platform, but doesn't get any bonuses for the servitors as they're not tech servitors and are busy shooting. The Rapier has an AV10 and is open topped.

 

waddaya think?

 

Oh, and DC, I know what you mean about Drop Pods...that's why I take a Prometheus in battles 2000+ points.

[Darrell]

These are my humble opinions, based on the fluff on the Wolves that I've read.

 

Wolf Lord - Needs a special ability. I'd also like to see him with Ld 10; why are Wolves less sure of themselves than other Chapters? Not to mention Wolf Lords are elected--one would think this would mean that their men would be more confidant in their abilities to lead and command. The special ability should perhaps reflect this.

 

Wolf Priest - Also, needs a special ability. Fang of Morka and Healing Balms should be worked into the standard price so that he already comes with necessary equipment (This is of course in addition to his Iron Wolf amulet and Crozius). I don't think it should be Litanies of Hate, although Fearless could perhaps be appropriate (Although it could perhaps be applied in limited circumstances, such as when leading Blood Claws. LEAD BY EXAMPLE!). To keep the Wolf Priest different than a Chaplain, the special ability would probably be more linked to an Apothecary. Two versions would be nice as well.

 

Rune Priest - More powers would be nice, to make them more customizable and unique. Two versions, again, would be nice to see. Again, make the Force Weapon/Psychic Hood standard equipment. Leadership 10 (At least on the more powerful of the two versions) would be nice for the Psychic and Psychic Hood tests. Not a major deal, however. Familiar should perhaps be standard equipment (This would make them somewhat different than their Codex brethren).

 

Iron Priest - I don't think the servo-arm will be available, as that is usually equipment given to them by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Iron Priests are not a member of the cult. It would be nice to give them the ability to repair vehicles, however. Thralls seem borderline, and I would be tempted to replace them with Wolf Guard instead (Thralls always strike me as being too mechanically creepy for the Wolves). If they are not given the Repair ability, some other ability would be appropriate. Right now they don't seem all that elite, or representative of a Space Wolf who is fascinated by the arcane technology of the Chapter. He's just a guy in shinier armor with a Thunder Hammer. Not very impressive.

 

Dreadnought - Clear up the issue about whether Space Wolves can take Codex Venerable Dreads in addition to their Venerable Dread. Perhaps rename the Venerable Dreadnought to something else. Veteran skills available perhaps? Need to seperate the SW Venerable Dread (Almost said VD :blush: ) from the Codex Venerable Dread.

 

Wolf Scouts - They seem fine as is.

 

Wolf Guard - I'm not sure about allowing them to form their own unit, as they seem to be more of the Bodyguard/Big Brother type rather than the Elite Lone Wolves type. Still, I suppose it's plausible enough. Veteran Skills I would say is a definite here, at the very least in the case of the Bodyguard, or in the case of them forming their own unit.

 

Grey Hunters - To a degree I can see a use of Veteran skills being allowed, although it would have to be limited. Of all the loyalist Chapters, none have seen the amount of combat that the Space Wolves have. However, they certainly don't have the 10,000 years of experience that the traitor legions do. Perhaps one Grey Hunter squad can be given Veteran skills, or they can use the skill once per battle (Infiltrate would have to be removed as a possibility, since you only need it once per battle), something like a combi-bolter.

 

Blood Claws - They seem to be working fine as they are now; they have lower WS and BS, but they also get more attacks on the charge and can have a whole lot of power fists hidden in the group. I think there should be a 0-1 limit on jump pack troops (Although I have never read the 2nd edition Codex, so the only SW fluff I know of says they are not fond of jump packing and teleporting, but Blood Claws do occasion make use of them because they're "too short in the tooth to know better"). It should be encouraged to keep Grey Hunters and Blood Claws on a 1:1 or 2:1 basis at least. Grey Hunters are the core of the Wolves, not the Blood Claws.

 

Blood Claw Bikers - Allow them to use CCW/BP on bikes. That would give them 2 base attacks, 4 when charging. You still have the low WS and BS, ontop of being an incredibly expensive unit. I don't think it would be particularly overpowering to do so.

 

Land Speeders - Look fine.

 

Rhinos/Razorbacks - Seem okay. I don't think it would be justified to let the Wolves have an improved version of these, as the Space Wolves are hardly technologically inclined.

 

Drop Pods - Little experience with these, but more control over when your units come in is never a bad thing. Perhaps an ability related to this could be given to the Iron Priest; that would give a good reason to take him.

 

Predator/Land Raider/Land Raider Crusader/Whirlwhind - They're good.

 

Long Fangs - I understand the fluff in having a small squad, but a lack of ablative wounds is very hurtful on this squad. I would think Infiltrate or Tank Hunting veteran skills would be appropriate here. Many options to improve them would include lowering the price, increasing the amount of bodies available, not basing the entire Seperate Fire ability on the Sergeant alone, or just give them Veteran Skills. There doesn't seem to be a lot of reasons to take this squad (The Split Fire is awesome, but as soon as you start taking wounds you either lose the ability completely or it starts losing the effectiveness of fewer weapons).

 

Leman Russ Exterminator - I don't think it's necessary that it stays, and I don't think that it would hurt the Space Wolves to give it up. It's a useful toy to have with hordes, but it's also a very expensive toy. I don't like the fluff reason given for it...it's named Leman Russ, let's get it! Makes the Space Wolves sound like galactic garage sale junkies looking for Leman Russ things to collect.

 

There should be a few subtle changes to make the Space Wolves as different from the Codex Chapters as they once were. True Grit, Counter Attack, and Acute Senses are now standard traits. It is now the Space Wolves' flaws, not their strengths, that makes them so different from their Codex brethren, and I don't think that's the way it should be.

 

That's just my humble opinions. I'm getting ready to go home, so I'll add more to this later if I think of anything. But then again, I'm new to the Wolves, so I'm probably the last person you want to listen to for this kind of thing. :P

[Wolf Lord Duregar]

Wolf Lord - Needs a special ability. I'd also like to see him with Ld 10

Wolf Lords do have leadership 10... :blush:

[Darrell]

It's unfortunate to realize that one has been reading the Leadership of the Fenris Wolf under the Wolf Lord rather than the Wolf Lord.

 

:blush:

 

Going to go back to quietly minding my business now.

[Wolf Lord Duregar]

:blush: Now, that was funny..!

 

The rest of your ideas were sound though so don