favorite primarch

[Legatus]

Hadn't the Imperial Palace walls already been breached? I think I remember a story that both the Black Legion and the World Eaters claim that their legionaires were the first to enter the breaches of the Palace.

 

Also, Horus lowered the shields because he did not have time to slowly finish the defenders due to te harriving loyalist Legions. That is not exactly a testament to the impregnability of the defenses of Earth. They did hold out long enough for the victory, but the question was not really whether the Imperial Palace's defenses could hold for X months untill the defenders are relieved. I think the question was rather whether or not the Palace on its own could withstand any siege.

[UltimateJake]

Horus HAD to lower his shields because a lot of pissed off loyalists were coming towards him and he was afraid he wouldn't have enough time to take the ENITIRE palace. I am pretty sure parts of it were breached, because Khârn was the first one through the breach if I am correct. So the palace would've been force into one last stand and then the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, ect would've arrived and just started kicking Horus's ass.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

:mellow: 'sighs' Are you really going to ignore what it has always been implied? No, what has always been the fact? It is not an opinion, thats what they always have and will say. I will add another line to disprove the whole final gambit nonsense.

 

Once again, exact qoute. Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 14, paragraph 10.

 

"It was now, at the very moment of his triumph that Horus made his one and only mistake. None can say for sure why he did it, but Horus lowered the defence shields on his battle barge as this last cataclysmic battle began. It is surmised without the shields he was better able to witness the forhtcoming destruction of the Emperor and his Imperium.

 

Sorry again, Emperors Champion, C-rex, but you are wrong.

 

 

Edit - and everyone else. He doesn't care about Terra, when the Emperor gets killed he can just grab all of his marines and leave. Any who get left behind die, and as a champion of the Dark Gods Horus wouldn't care.

[UltimateJake]

I am not sure why they added that in the CSM codex. But, I am sure it has been around quite a long time in older fluff that Horus had reached a stalemate and it would take much longer to breach the Imperial Palace. So he came up with a plan to end it all. He would kill the Emperor. To bad it worked out wrong and he died. :D

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

:D There was no stalemate! It clearly said he wanted to witness their end! Does that sound like a stalemate ot you? No! Here is more bloody proof!

 

"The last hours of humanity had come and the few remaining gallant defenders prepared themselves for certain death"

 

Chaos space marine codex, page 14, paragraph 9.

 

They put it in there because it was what had happened. Stop being fanboys and accept that Dorn and the Emperor would have died.

[hendrik]

but that's all chaos propaganda!

it would imo be truely crappy should they have written:

The last hours of humanity had come (if we could manage to break those final walls)and the few remaining gallant defenders (who put us to a halt) prepared themselves for certain death"

the defenders had been preparing themselves for a certain death from the start in my opinion. with them facing 4 traitor legions i'm pretty sure none of them were over confident, in fact, i'm pretty sure even the emperor got a bit scared!

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

...

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

And now you are choosing to change the fluff. I don't think you realize why GW put that. Tell me, would it be such a good story had the defenders been able to hold out? Rewrite it so that the bad guys get shot down by the hundreds. It becomes quite boring.

 

This isn't chaos propaganda, this isn't an exaggeration, this is what the fluff says. If you don't like it because your precious primarchs had failed then tough. Deal with it. There isn't anything you can do about it.

 

Once again, stop being fanboys.

[UltimateJake]

...

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

And now you are choosing to change the fluff. I don't think you realize why GW put that. Tell me, would it be such a good story had the defenders been able to hold out? Rewrite it so that the bad guys get shot down by the hundreds. It becomes quite boring.

 

This isn't chaos propaganda, this isn't an exaggeration, this is what the fluff says. If you don't like it because your precious primarchs had failed then tough. Deal with it. There isn't anything you can do about it.

 

Once again, stop being fanboys.

 

Whoah! Calm down their. Haven't you ever noticed how Codexes tend to make the army look GREAT. The SM codex makes SMs look like uber-badasses and the Chaos Codex will obviously make chaos look like they almost won.

 

But, the sad fact is that the Imperial Palace wouldn't have fell. It was close to falling, but I am sure that the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and the other legions would've arrived and utterly obliterated Horus. And it just wasn't Dorn defending the palace. You seem to forget it was the Blood Angels and White Scars and both of those legions were led by a Primarch. Also their was the Custodes who were the best of the best.

 

Horus lowered his shields to end it quicker. The palace would invetiably going to fall, but not for a LONG time. So Horus wanted to end it as fast possible and prepare for the oncoming legions who were going to take away his advantage in numbers. So Horus would've lost anyway if he hadn't lowered his shields and I doubt he would've been able to take the ENTIRE palace. Their would regardlessly be pockets of resistance all over and thus the Emperor would likely still be alive.

[hendrik]

i'm not trying to flame or something or make an insult, just to make it clear we'll all still friends;)

i just ment by it that it imo seems likely that a report from a chaos marine would make itself pretty sure of what was to come/what they wanted. don't get me wrong, the loyalist got butchered all the way but still, at a particular moment managed to get the traitors halted for a certain time.

i kinda see this like in the 2nd lord of the rings movie, when helm's deep has fallen and the few remaining rohirim pulled back into the great hall. sure they were losing badly but they still managed to halt them.

trapped.

 

i dug up my old copy of the eye of terror, on page 4:

"the battle raged for weeks,... Everywhere the forces of the emperor were pushed back, choking the halls of the imperial palace with dead as they fought for every yard of ground. Eventually the traitors breeched the final walls of the palace and the end looked certain."

i definatly see your point in what you mean but looked isn't the same as was.

"knowing that imperial reinforcements in the shape of the dark angels and space wolves were nearing, he knew he had to end the siege of the Emperor's palace soon."

[Solomon de Gravier]

I think this might be getting a little off topic :D

 

My favourate Primarch by far is probably Sanguinus or Vulkan.

[c-wrex]

Horus lowers the shields on his ship to draw the Emprah into a confrontation. Horus' goal is to kill the Emprah quickly before the approaching three loyalist legions break warp in the Solar System. Horus knows if these three show up, he's boned. So he tries to finish the siege as quickly as possible by trying to defeat his father decisively in a one on one fight. He failed, he lost, he died. This has always been the fluff regarding the end of the siege.

 

Get over it.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to get so angry.

 

I do see the point of codexes making the one army look good, however, my point still remains. The forces of chaos would have won had it not been for Horus lowering the defence shields. Anything you say against that is wrong, I have given clear evidence that you cannot refute that is what would have happened.

 

Once again, I apoligize for getting so angry, that shouldn't have happened.

 

Once again, you are still wrong.

[hendrik]

i'm incline dto dissagree! (aren't we all actually=p )

should horus not have lowered his shield this is what would have happened.

the traitors besiege the palace further, however instead of spread out over whole terra you now have all these great heroes concentrated on one spot. since dorn was able to teleport himself and the emperors body safely back to terra this indicates the loyalist had still quite some power and ground, even when all the ground they had was the emperor's palace. by this it means the loyalists, who did halt the traitors, are now trying to buy precious time. sure they couldn't have lasted another week, but what should the dark angels and space wolves arrive within 1-2 days? i'm pretty sure horus knew the arriving of the space wolves was bad news, considering the recent event ons prosperro. so from the point of the halt there are 2 possible scenarios:

A) the loyalist can put the traitors to a halt for a time but still get overwhelmed before the remaining loyalists arrive. However since horus took the reckless gamble of lowering his shields, it seems to me like this scenario isen't going to happen

and now there's B )

the loyalists inside the palace halt the traitors when suddenly they spot the sons of russ and the dark angels on the sky/radar/wherever. Since we all know what happened on prosperro i'm pretty sure the space wolves are now even more badass! not only are they facing of against the 1000th sons but also to horus, the one who used them! and above all, an oathbreaker! now we find ourselves in a whole new conflict, with an even more discutable outcome, but above all, an unsure one, especially for the traitors since horus did fear them.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Eh, one problem with that.

 

They don't need a whole lot of room to teleport of it is built in to their suits (which I am sure it was. If it wasn't the traitors would have wrecked the power supply to the building long ago to prevent the Emperor from teleporting around).

 

You also underestimate just how close they were.The qoute does say "at the moment of triumph". Is the moment of triumph when they are still trying to get to the last few defenders? No, it's when the Emperor himself is in combat alongside all of his primarchs and their veterans. Even if Russ and co. showed up that very second, the traitors would still have enough time to kill the Emperor before the Wolves got to them.

[hendrik]

i'm not sure, i'm pretty sure they'd just teleport right to him then. in the end, we're going to have to gree to disagree, atleast until the horus heresy book handling the siege of terra comes out;)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

i'm not sure, i'm pretty sure they'd just teleport right to him then.

 

No, Terra had shields similar to starship shields.

 

in the end, we're going to have to gree to disagree, atleast until the horus heresy book handling the siege of terra comes out;)

And when that happens I am going to be laughing at most of you. In all politeness of course.

[hendrik]

i'm not sure, i'm pretty sure they'd just teleport right to him then.

 

No, Terra had shields similar to starship shields.

wouldn't these shields have hindered the loyalits then to teleport to horus' flagship too? i'm not that familiar with all the heresy technology

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I am not sure, but I am thinking that either 1) by the time the chaos marines got there they had destroyed the power source but their marines had already teleported down or 2) The Emperor turned them off so that he could teleport up.

[jb85]

Eh, one problem with that.

 

They don't need a whole lot of room to teleport of it is built in to their suits (which I am sure it was. If it wasn't the traitors would have wrecked the power supply to the building long ago to prevent the Emperor from teleporting around).

 

You also underestimate just how close they were.The qoute does say "at the moment of triumph". Is the moment of triumph when they are still trying to get to the last few defenders? No, it's when the Emperor himself is in combat alongside all of his primarchs and their veterans. Even if Russ and co. showed up that very second, the traitors would still have enough time to kill the Emperor before the Wolves got to them.

 

Power supply for the Imperial Palace would likely be within its defensive shielding so knocking it out isn't likely to be feasible.

 

In addition I have never seen any account detailing the Emperor entering combat personally during the Siege until he enters the Vengful Spirit.

 

The problem is that there are multiple accounts detailing the reasons why Horus lowered his shields, often conflicting with each other. The situation is like many in 40K, left open to your own interpretation, was the move forcd because of impending defeat or was it a critical error?. Eithe way, I don't think a one liner in the CSM Codex provides enough evidence to suggest one view point is definitely right over all others.

 

Black Legion IA:

 

History records that on the 55th day of the battle, overwhelming Imperial reinforcements approached. In a bid to slay the Emperor before it was too late, Horus lowered the shields around his battle barge, daring his creator to teleport on board.

 

Blood Angels IA:

 

In his victory, Horus became complacent, watching the battle from the bridge of his bloated leviathan of a command ship. He wanted to experience the Emperor's defeat first hand, to force him to his knees before he fed on the father of Mankind's soul. And in his folly, as his forces breached the defences for the last and final time, spilling into the corridors and chambers of the palace, Horus relaxed the psychic defences around his ship. At the speed of thought, the Emperor was aboard the hellish craft, Sanguinius close behind him.

 

Account of the Siege of Terra:

 

Those within the palace knew they were cut off; now they were truly alone. Only a miracle could save them.

 

Now the final siege began. Through great breaches in the outer walls more and more armaments and reinforcements were brought to bear. The Warmaster himself prepared to teleport down to the surface and supervise the destruction of his former lord. Then a daemon from the Warp whispered to him the words that he had dreaded.

 

A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion'el Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away. It would take days to break humanity's last citadel, even with Horus leading his troops. It seemed that time had run out for the Warmaster, that his gamble had failed. Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a god and the cunning of a daemon. He resolved to try one final desperate gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. He ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders would get no word from their rescuers and then he used his psychic powers to the full to prevent the Emperor becoming aware of this. Finally he dropped the shields of his command ship.

 

Another version of the Siege Story:

 

The siege lasted 55 days. Both sides knew the defeat of the Imperium was near. Sensing this, Horus prepared to teleport to the surface to lead his forces in person. Before this could happen, the Word Bearers' First Chaplain Erebus broke the news to Horus: their daemonic allies in the warp had informed them that the Ultramarines and Space Wolves Legions were nearing Terra; and the Dark Angels were only a short distance behind.

At that moment, Horus despaired: his gamble had failed, weeks of further conflict would be needed to break the defenders and the Emperor's reinforcements would arrive in mere hours. It was then Horus gave the most fateful order of the Heresy. He ordered that the shields protecting his flagship, The Vengeful Spirit, be dropped immediately. Some of the Ordo Malleus say Horus would not gamble, and thus Horus only wanted a better view of the impending doom of the Imperium.

 

Bill King's Emperor/Horus Story:

 

Hope flickers within him. The shields of Horus's ship are down. Briefly he wonders why. Is the traitor's confidence so overwhelming? Does he wish to witness the battle himself. Or is it a trap? The Emperor touches the ship and recoils from what he senses within. How could Horus have done that, made a pact with the ultimate abomination?

 

The Emperor comes to a decision. Trap or not, this is the only opportunity he will get.

 

Eye of Terror Codex:

 

Eventually the Traitors breached the final walls of the palace and the end looked certain. Horus was a master strategist, but it was at this point that he made a fatal error. Knowing that Imperial reinforcements in the shape of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were nearing he had to end the siege of the Emperor's palace soon. Horus moved his battle barge into lower orbit and ordered its shields lowered. Whether it was a reckless gamble or the last of Horus's humanity surfacing will never be known.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

So that means no one was mislead, just that there are different points of view. I still think codex Chaos Space Marine would be best because it tells it from the traitors point of view, which would be better for telling why Horus acted. It suggested that he wished to personally view the Emperors demise, and it also suggested that the Emperor would have died regardless. Suggested as in you would be pretty foolish to think otherwise.

 

Another reason why this is probably closer to the truth than others - the traitors were actually there. nobody from the Imperium (aside from the Emperor himself) was actually there; I would trust the first hand account myself.

 

I always saw the moments before he lowered the shields much like when in the first LOTR movie when they were in the tomb and the cave troll came, only the odds would have been stacked much more in the bad guys favor.

[jb85]

So that means no one was mislead, just that there are different points of view. I still think codex Chaos Space Marine would be best because it tells it from the traitors point of view, which would be better for telling why Horus acted. It suggested that he wished to personally view the Emperors demise, and it also suggested that the Emperor would have died regardless. Suggested as in you would be pretty foolish to think otherwise.

 

Another reason why this is probably closer to the truth than others - the traitors were actually there. nobody from the Imperium (aside from the Emperor himself) was actually there; I would trust the first hand account myself.

 

I always saw the moments before he lowered the shields much like when in the first LOTR movie when they were in the tomb and the cave troll came, only the odds would have been stacked much more in the bad guys favor.

 

By the flipside you could argue that the CSM Codex is more likely to be biased than two impartial accounts of the battle detailed in my previous post. You also have a Black Legion IA which tells a different version of the story yet it is also from the traitors point of view.

 

In addition some of the accounts mention Horus being brough information by a Deamon/Erebus. As you say nobody from the Imperium was present, so how would they have access to this information? That implies a traitor source to the information.

 

Either interpretation of the situtation is valid, with sources from Imperial, Chaos and neutral perspectives providing support for both alternatives. However based on the weight of conflicting information I would suggest that the initial, rather overbearing, attitude that your interpretation is absolutely right is inappropriate.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I'm sorry, but what they were saying came across to me that they were trying to say that Horus acted out of fear or because he wasn't confident that he would succeed, because either 1) their primarch was coming to save the Emperor or 2) their primarch was with the Emperor. Both reeked of fanboyism so I set to put them in place. I got unnessarily angry, and once I realized that I apoligized, but I was still unaware of these other accounts. Therefore I did believe I was right, because I had fluff backing and they were simply saying things with no backing (to my perception at the time).

 

While I do agree that the traitors may be more biased, there is a line between what can be exaggerated and what can't. Moment of victory is pretty hard to exagerate (because it is already so awesome) but last defence (or rather, how far the traitors got because they were pushed back for x long) is much easier to exagerate, which I believed is what they were doing.

 

I honestly do believe, as I have said before, had the Wolves arrived at the very instant the walls broke into the final room and Horus lowered his shields, and the Emperor hadn't teleported he would have been dead.

[Tormented]

You say either way that the the Emperor was going to die, well either way Horus was going to die too! He personally wanted to kill the Emperor and feed off his soul so this would mean he would allow no one else to engage him in combat and we all know what happened when Horus and the Emperor faced off ;) Maybe if Horus had assaulted Terra and fought the Emperor, maybe the Emperor would still be here today. This too would of allowed the Ultramarines who ere the largest legion and a pretty good one too, the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves who were rather annoyed to put it mildly ;)

 

 

Irony, you too seem to be acting upon fanboyism upon behalf of the traitors. Horus was a cocky fool and he paid the ultimate price, his soul was blown into oblivion.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

this is getting pointless...

 

quick edit: the Siege of the Imperial Palace has been written upon many, many times. wouldnt it be best to form a firm opinion to read as many as possible, rather than just your version?

 

WLK

[The Emperor's Champion]

No... You're reading one piece of Chaos propaganda and ignoring years and years of numerous refrences to the contrary.