=I= Coming in 2010?

[Valerian]

It has also been confirmed that Grey Knights with Jetbikes will not be in the codex.

 

Has it? :D

 

Only thing I read on that was the original rumour ages ago, where someone (DPA maybe?) Mentions the posibility of GK Jetbikes. Who tore that down?

 

Yes, it was Stikmonkey, in post #15 in that Warseer thread.

 

V

[tilindir]

Yes, it was Stikmonkey, in post #15 in that Warseer thread.

 

Hope he is maistaken exactly in that part of rumors. And Harry meant JB (as he said part of Sticky's rumors are false) =)

[Valerian]

Yes, it was Stikmonkey, in post #15 in that Warseer thread.

 

Hope he is maistaken exactly in that part of rumors. And Harry meant JB (as he said part of Sticky's rumors are false) =)

 

True. Unfortunately, Harry hasn't been very forthcoming; he hasn't said which parts of Stikmonkey's information is old/incorrect, and he hasn't added anything of his own, other than that all basic Knights will be in Articifer Armour.

 

V

[Inquisitor Fox]

Unfortunately, Harry hasn't been very forthcoming; he hasn't said which parts of Stikmonkey's information is old/incorrect, and he hasn't added anything of his own, other than that all basic Knights will be in Articifer Armour.

Yet at the same time, isn't that sole tidbit enough to give you happy smiles before going to sleep at night? :)

[HERO]

Apparently, this was one of the lists used in a recent playtest:

 

 

GK 2000pt AL from PT:

 

HQ

GM w Retinue

Named character

 

Elite

5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons

Dread - unknown configuration

 

Troop

2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback

10-man ????? squad + chimera

 

Fast

Storm Raven

 

No Heavies

 

All I've got for now, but this give an idea of how expensive GKs will be points wise. That is not much on the board for 2k, less than 30 models...

 

Notice the Razorbacks in there.

 

Also notice the # of models for that cost game..

[Oiad]

Yikes, one of the things that worried me about the TGS fandex has now been raised by this too. It seems like pure GK armies will no longer be able to field a legitimate force in extremely small games. For GK players with little time to spare, or those not looking for a large and complex game that would be a small blow.

[SoulReaver296]

GK 2000pt AL from PT:

The PT list posted was played against 2k of Orks including nobs, mek with kff, lots of boys in trukks, a BW and dread mob. It was C&C with DoW.

 

GKs held most in reserve.

PAGKS in RB came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.

unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.

TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.

The SR took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.

 

 

It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs

 

That all I got on followup. enjoy.

 

This could actually work. Maybe not against IG, but maybe a more tailored list could at least stand up to one.

[Valerian]

Unfortunately, Harry hasn't been very forthcoming; he hasn't said which parts of Stikmonkey's information is old/incorrect, and he hasn't added anything of his own, other than that all basic Knights will be in Articifer Armour.

Yet at the same time, isn't that sole tidbit enough to give you happy smiles before going to sleep at night? :)

 

Oh yes! Absolutely it does.

 

Yikes, one of the things that worried me about the TGS fandex has now been raised by this too. It seems like pure GK armies will no longer be able to field a legitimate force in extremely small games. For GK players with little time to spare, or those not looking for a large and complex game that would be a small blow.

 

But when you only have 30 or so models on your side, it should not take long too play each turn, and it will be much cheaper to buy/build a 2000 point list.

 

Also, based on the models count and the points cost, I'd now say that it is a pretty safe bet that Grey Knights will each have a minimum of 2 Wounds and Articifer Armour for the basic Troops. There is no other way to make them viable without doing that, and they apparently man-handled 120 Orks in that game.

 

V

[traeplien]

Could it be that GKs might be fielded similarly to that of WFB's Ogre Kingdoms? Not a lot on the board, but able to handle a ton and wreak a bunch of havoc?

[HERO]

Also, based on the models count and the points cost, I'd now say that it is a pretty safe bet that Grey Knights will each have a minimum of 2 Wounds and Articifer Armour for the basic Troops. There is no other way to make them viable without doing that, and they apparently man-handled 120 Orks in that game.

 

I think the days of 2W Marines are over.

 

That's just my take. If they make them 2W a piece, then the Grand Master would have 6 Wounds. That's on par with a Greater Daemon.

 

From a design standpoint, that's .... inconsistent.

[Valerian]

Also, based on the models count and the points cost, I'd now say that it is a pretty safe bet that Grey Knights will each have a minimum of 2 Wounds and Articifer Armour for the basic Troops. There is no other way to make them viable without doing that, and they apparently man-handled 120 Orks in that game.

 

I think the days of 2W Marines are over.

 

That's just my take. If they make them 2W a piece, then the Grand Master would have 6 Wounds. That's on par with a Greater Daemon.

 

From a design standpoint, that's .... inconsistent.

 

I would actually say that the days of 2W Marines are just getting ready to start (as there have never before been 2 Wound basic Marines in any list, in any version of the game). I think your assumption that a Grand Master would have 6 Wounds is unfounded, as the way you could to it is 2 Wounds for all of the basic guys, maybe 3 Wounds for a Brother Captain, and 4 Wounds for a Grand Master. It would be unusual to have a 4 Wound leader, but not unheard of, as there are several Space Marine special characters who have 4 Wounds apiece. The Tempus Fugitives list uses 2 Wounds each for basic Grey Knights, and the rumours are pointing to something significant in survivability that would point to this.

 

Of course, it might not pan out that way, but based on current rumour trends I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

 

Also, just to add some fuel to the fire, I have it on good authority via PM that the new Special Characters will be "jaw-dropping" good, and that the army list will be "pure evil" (but in a good for humanity/holy way).

 

V

[Oiad]

But when you only have 30 or so models on your side, it should not take long too play each turn, and it will be much cheaper to buy/build a 2000 point list.

 

Also, based on the models count and the points cost, I'd now say that it is a pretty safe bet that Grey Knights will each have a minimum of 2 Wounds and Articifer Armour for the basic Troops. There is no other way to make them viable without doing that, and they apparently man-handled 120 Orks in that game.

Even if GW don't even it out so I can kill them quickly, it doesn't stop my opponent needing time to decide and play his horde army. Perhaps I better hope I play against GKs all the time? Then there are times where I find smaller games with plenty of scenery are just as enjoyable as bigger games. Small games are also very helpful if you have a friend starting out with only the bare necessities of the army to play with. It doesn't happen often but it's good to have the option.

[Eddie Orlock]

Also, just to add some fuel to the fire, I have it on good authority via PM that the new Special Characters will be "jaw-dropping" good, and that the army list will be "pure evil" (but in a good for humanity/holy way).

Yee. Haw. The game picks up more special crutches. It would continue on the path toward being a clone of all the other terrible games out there. :P

 

I don't want to play the game designers pet character, I want to run my own. B)

 

If I liked eunich unique characters I'd play something inane like Warmachine, or maybe Helldorado, or (insert pop culture mini game of viewers choice).

[Gentlemanloser]

What's the problem with using the rules for a Codex Special Character, and just using it as abasis for your own 'Hero'?

 

I'm interested in how a 5 man PAGK (or AAGK) squad managed to tarpit some Orks! B)

[HERO]

I'm interested in how a 5 man PAGK (or AAGK) squad managed to tarpit some Orks!

 

T4, 2W and 2+ armor saves + Fearless can do the trick.

 

Especially if they manage to cut down a good amount of them before they get to attack.

[Eddie Orlock]

What's the problem with using the rules for a Codex Special Character, and just using it as a basis for your own 'Hero'?

No-one ever talks about how Capt. Gullivan, who just so happens to be mechanically identical to Vulkan Kegstand lead your troops to a glorious victory, they talk about how you cheesed out with hulkin' cheestand with no mention of how you tried to 'make it your own'.

T2, 2W and 2+ armor saves + Fearless can do the trick.

How does toughness two help? Seems to kinda negate the two wounds bit a little B)

[HERO]

How does toughness two help? Seems to kinda negate the two wounds bit a little

 

Obviously a typo.

[Valerian]

But when you only have 30 or so models on your side, it should not take long too play each turn, and it will be much cheaper to buy/build a 2000 point list.

 

Also, based on the models count and the points cost, I'd now say that it is a pretty safe bet that Grey Knights will each have a minimum of 2 Wounds and Articifer Armour for the basic Troops. There is no other way to make them viable without doing that, and they apparently man-handled 120 Orks in that game.

 

Even if GW don't even it out so I can kill them quickly, it doesn't stop my opponent needing time to decide and play his horde army. Perhaps I better hope I play against GKs all the time? Then there are times where I find smaller games with plenty of scenery are just as enjoyable as bigger games. Small games are also very helpful if you have a friend starting out with only the bare necessities of the army to play with. It doesn't happen often but it's good to have the option.

 

Yeah, I know, just trying to be positive. I suppose you could still play a small game at 750 points or whatever. You'd just have 2 units on the table, but it would play quickly for your side, at least :)

 

Also, just to add some fuel to the fire, I have it on good authority via PM that the new Special Characters will be "jaw-dropping" good, and that the army list will be "pure evil" (but in a good for humanity/holy way).

Yee. Haw. The game picks up more special crutches. It would continue on the path toward being a clone of all the other terrible games out there. :down:

 

I don't want to play the game designers pet character, I want to run my own. <_<

 

I see where you are coming from Eddie, but remember you always get to play your own character, and usually get to design him however you want (almost, anyway) - so just go for the generic Grand Master (or whatever other HQ choices become available) and have fun with him. He'll be missing whatever special unit rules they invent for the Special Characters, but shouldn't really be a big deal. For those that want to play with the Specials, they'll be there, and those that don't, you'll have that option, too. I'd say it is better to at least have them included as options, rather than left out entirely.

 

I, too, played through Rogue Trader, and the "Herohammer" 2nd Edition. There is a pretty significant difference in the underlying rules set now, though, so even really "monster" characters can be dealt with, no matter how bad-ass they are made. Back in 2nd Edition though, the rules were different (especially "stacking" mulitiple Saves, and no such thing as Instant Death), so a hero could wade through the entire enemy army and survive. That isn't the case now, so the reemergence of Special Characters, that were really down-played in 3rd and 4th Editions, really doesn't bother me a bit.

 

I'm interested in how a 5 man PAGK (or AAGK) squad managed to tarpit some Orks!

 

T2, 2W and 2+ armor saves + Fearless can do the trick.

 

Especially if they manage to cut down a good amount of them before they get to attack.

 

Yeah, lets see, if that 5 man squad generates 15 Power Weapon attacks on the charge (2 Attacks each +1 for Charging), at WS 5, and S6, that be about 9 dead Orks on the charge, not counting the several that would die from firing prior to charging in (at least 3 more if no Incinerator in the unit, a lot more if they did have one). In return, the only Ork that really would have a chance of scratching them would be the Nob with Power Klaw, who would only average killing 1 Grey Knight per turn. If they had an Incinerator, they could take out half the unit prior to charging with that alone, even if they were in 'Eavy Armour (AP4 eats right through that).

 

V

[the jeske]

No Heavies

GW would never make an army that has options to buy in all slots . Guy lies .

[Valerian]

No Heavies

GW would never make an army that has options to buy in all slots . Guy lies .

 

Jeske,

 

That was just one single army list used in one Play Test game. Assuming that dozens of such games are played, with as many combinations as possible, against as many types of opponents as possible. I could easily see a list used that just happened to not have taken any of the available Heavy Support choices, especially if the player wanted to try something specific.

 

V

[Oiad]

Yeah, no worries Jeske. It's a playlist, not the entire armylist.

 

Yeah, I know, just trying to be positive. I suppose you could still play a small game at 750 points or whatever. You'd just have 2 units on the table, but it would play quickly for your side, at least :)

If TGS is near accurate then we wouldn't even be able to legally play 750pts: 2x350pts (Troop) + 100pts (HQ) = 800pts = :(

 

Yee. Haw. The game picks up more special crutches. It would continue on the path toward being a clone of all the other terrible games out there. :confused:

 

I don't want to play the game designers pet character, I want to run my own. :confused:

I see where you are coming from Eddie, but remember you always get to play your own character, and usually get to design him however you want (almost, anyway) - so just go for the generic Grand Master (or whatever other HQ choices become available) and have fun with him. He'll be missing whatever special unit rules they invent for the Special Characters, but shouldn't really be a big deal. For those that want to play with the Specials, they'll be there, and those that don't, you'll have that option, too. I'd say it is better to at least have them included as options, rather than left out entirely.

 

I, too, played through Rogue Trader, and the "Herohammer" 2nd Edition. There is a pretty significant difference in the underlying rules set now, though, so even really "monster" characters can be dealt with, no matter how bad-ass they are made. Back in 2nd Edition though, the rules were different (especially "stacking" mulitiple Saves, and no such thing as Instant Death), so a hero could wade through the entire enemy army and survive. That isn't the case now, so the reemergence of Special Characters, that were really down-played in 3rd and 4th Editions, really doesn't bother me a bit.

Well they'll always be are those that like special characters and those who don't. Personally, I've never seen the point in the hatred of special characters as they play such a minor and superfluous role within the construct of the table-top game, making complaints about them nearly as redundant. It only gets annoying when you're playing with someone determined to play with [insert character name] every game, which can be remedied. In addition to Valerian’s comments above:

* 5th Ed has seen an escalation in the amount of Special Characters within each codex release, 8 minimum. I can't see GW backtracking on this now until the next edition. Better get use to it with other releases to come.

* Generic HQs will always be standard, unless there's a specific scenario which requires a certain character to be played. So most people who hate them can still ignore them, especially if you can agree to 'no characters' pre-match. Obviously tournements without such rules against them don't help.

* If you like their rules but hate the actual character you can always model your own special character based on the rules of an official character with the counts-as rule. As long the wargear is accurately represented you can even convert your own model!

* Super-heavyweight characters that make other players green with envy are a good thing in our case. It's about time GK players had our fair share as Stern alone doesn't really qualify, imo. :P

[Valerian]

Yeah, no worries Jeske. It's a playlist, not the entire armylist.

 

Yeah, I know, just trying to be positive. I suppose you could still play a small game at 750 points or whatever. You'd just have 2 units on the table, but it would play quickly for your side, at least :)

If TGS is near accurate then we wouldn't even be able to legally play 750pts: 2x350pts (Troop) + 100pts (HQ) = 800pts = :(

 

 

 

Oiad,

 

I think the Terminators were 350, but the basic Troop Grey Knights were just 300, so you could squeeze in 2 of those and the cheapest HQ for right at 750. It'll be hard, obviously, and you are correct that they will really be geared toward higher points level games.

 

I haven't done the math yet, but I've got around 3,000 or so points worth of Grey Knights now (40 in Power Armour, 12 in Terminator Armour, and 2 Dreadnoughts), not counting 2 squads of IST. I wonder how much that army would be worth under the new rules? Closer to 5,000 points maybe? I'll have to map it out using my Fandex. I'll probably have to pick up Apocalypse (never bothered to play it yet) just to play my full army.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Brovius]

I haven't done the math yet, but I've got around 3,000 or so points worth of Grey Knights now (40 in Power Armour, 12 in Terminator Armour, and 2 Dreadnoughts)

 

You need more GKTs :P

I have roughly 22 PAGKs (Including a minor conversion of the Emperor's Champion as my mini-purgation squad's Justicar) and 19 GKTs (Including BC Stern, and a GM modeled to hold his hamberd in two hands).

 

Then again, I'm one GKLRR away from having the Noah's Ark of Land Raiders :P

[Gentlemanloser]

Apocalypse is fun, but totally unbalanced.

 

You'll be lucky to have a 'fair' game for both sides. If it isn't dominated by flyers or super heavys, then it's all uber CC units hitting your army in the First Turn through Flank March. And/or reseves scuppered by a Displacement Beacon.

 

Plus some of the Datasheets are unbeleviably broken.

 

But if you just want to field a load of guys, and see how many you can kill each turn, it's a blast! ;)

 

It beats Planetstrike hands down though! :rolleyes:

[Oiad]

...I think the Terminators were 350, but the basic Troop Grey Knights were just 300, so you could squeeze in 2 of those and the cheapest HQ for right at 750. It'll be hard, obviously, and you are correct that they will really be geared toward higher points level games.

You're quite correct. Of course, 11 models, with no options, including no transport (unless you count deep-striking) sounds like a challenge I love. [no sarcasm]