The First Heretic

[Brother Hadafix]

Almost finished this, and it seems to tie in nicely with the others.

 

Ok, straight to the moronic questions. If mr ADB wouldnt mind.

 

 

 

Am I right in that the Cadians were not all killed and how did you get that one passed GW.

 

It sees that Kor had a good deal of influence over Lorgar, and the plot was not really his, is this right?

 

With the mention of BT, is this just a reference or are you going to get to write the IF book for the series?

 

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

Finished it today. Brilliant book.

 

I loved the Portrayal and description of Guilliman and the Ultramarines in particular.

 

The book also made me genuinely sad in places..

 

Can't wait for the next installment. Are there anymore HH releases scheduled by ADB? (I'm aware that since he may be reading this, ..I am technically speaking to someone, in third person...about themselves...odd)

[ICHD?]

Ah, so that's why the Emperor wanted to rid the galaxy of supersticion and religion... ^_^

 

Just because he said it doesn't mean he meant it. Politicians are all the same. :wub:

 

Seconded. If you found out it was possible to be a God, would you go online posting it in some 40K forum? In other news, guess what I found out today? :)

[Hellios]

Ah, so that's why the Emperor wanted to rid the galaxy of supersticion and religion... :)

 

Just because he said it doesn't mean he meant it. Politicians are all the same. :)

 

Seconded. If you found out it was possible to be a God, would you go online posting it in some 40K forum? In other news, guess what I found out today? :P

 

How to be a God?

[ICHD?]

Ah, so that's why the Emperor wanted to rid the galaxy of supersticion and religion... <_<

 

Just because he said it doesn't mean he meant it. Politicians are all the same. :lol:

 

Seconded. If you found out it was possible to be a God, would you go online posting it in some 40K forum? In other news, guess what I found out today? :D

 

How to be a God?

 

Irony win! (sorry for the off-topic-ness by the way)

[Brother Jim]

I'm about halfway through it. Love the depiction of Guilliman being a complete and total d-bag, as it fits in with my opinion of him. However I must complain about the reference at one point, in chapter seven, to Vindicator tanks, and them being used to destroy the artificial construct soldiers on Forty-Seven Sixteen. Vindicators, IIRC, didn't exist during the Crusade itself, and were created during the later stages of the Heresy. However, aside from that it's been a great read so far... :D A D-B!

[calgar101]

Thing is Guilliman wasn't being a d-bag.. He was following orders and listening to the Emperor; something Lorgar couldn't fully get the grasp of. If Lorgar hadn't strayed out of line then Guilliman wouldn't have had to do what was needed to be done.

[Marshal Traben]

Well, Guilliman was certainly a person that did not show his emotions publicly, and would probably obey any order from the emperor without a second thought .

Also, in your mind was destroying the planet Khur's cities and murdering their populations something that needed to be done?

[calgar101]

Guilliman was being professional, not allowing his emoitions or personal feelings to get in the way of his duty to the Emperor. Yes the destruction was needed, Lorgar had not listened to the Emperor and continued on, he needed to be made an example of or then other Primarchs and generals/rulers of the Imperium would've not taken the Emperor seriosuly at all, his authority and power would've been undermined.

[Legatus]

Love the depiction of Guilliman being a complete and total d-bag

Guilliman had allways made an effort to not have the population of the worlds he was fighting on suffer too much from collateral damage and before leaving would establish a stable and working government and defenses. To have to just wipe out a city to make a point would not sit well with him at all. That was not an enjoyable assignment for him, and for Lorgar to then accuse him of gloating about it must have been an additional sting. But still he kept his temper in check.

 

But I am not at all surprised that it is perceived in a completely different manner and Lorgar's accusations are taken at full face value. That is usually how these small details are gobbled up by the readers, and I wish Black Library authors would refrain from keep insterting such conspiracy theories, rumours and suppositions into their stories. Jonson waiting to see who would win, taken as fact. The Emperor betraying Curze and sending Assassins after him way before he turned, taken as fact. That the Ultramarines became so big because they incorporated the Marines of the lost Legions, no doubt taken as fact by a lot as well. And now, it seems, Lorgar's perceived gloating of Guilliman. Let's ignore the description of Guilliman and his deeds concerning civilians. The more important thing is that he is confirmed to be a jerk.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

But I am not at all surprised that it is perceived in a completely different manner and Lorgar's accusations are taken at full face value. That is usually how these small details are gobbled up by the readers, and I wish Black Library authors would refrain from keep insterting such conspiracy theories, rumours and suppositions into their stories. Jonson waiting to see who would win, taken as fact. The Emperor betraying Curze and sending Assassins after him way before he turned, taken as fact. That the Ultramarines became so big because they incorporated the Marines of the lost Legions, no doubt taken as fact by a lot as well. And now, it seems, Lorgar's perceived gloating of Guilliman. Let's ignore the description of Guilliman and his deeds concerning civilians. The more important thing is that he is confirmed to be a jerk.

 

Whilst it is frustrating for the guys who like the faction to have it besmirched by the 'haters', I think it is good writing actually.

 

Many, many of mans fall-outs have been from lack of communication, lack of empathy, lack of sympathy, assumption of me being right from what I am presented with ~and I might be but~ I don't know all the facts and so I have made a big mistake, my rights and reputation is more important than my responsibilities, and so on.

 

Authors giving 'justifications' to the characters is a good thing. Whether they are real or not.

 

As you have pointed out, dudes will see what they want to see and say "Haha! told you so!"

 

Look at ATS, McNeill all but puts the spoons in our mouths about the Wolves not actually being Wolves, yet because it rankles what Wolf players want Fenris and the SW fluff to be, ignore it. But it is plainly there. But they don't want it to be, so they leave the dots unconnected.

 

Haters gonna hate. :P

 

BL is not Canon anyway bro, so don't worry about it :D

[randian]

That Kor Phaeron and Erebus were seeding compliant Word Bearer worlds with fragments of Chaos worship is a stunning revelation. They weren't corrupted sometime during the Crusade, they were corrupt from the beginning. I wonder how they managed to hide their corruption from everybody. Even without physical corruption, spiritual corruption is usually evident to strong psykers, but the Emperor didn't detect their corruption when he chastised Lorgar.

 

I found it rather interesting that Lorgar saw all that horror in the Eye, and all the horror Chaos demanded he create in their name, and still didn't consider that Chaos might be lying to him like he thought the Emperor did. Shouldn't wholesale abandonment of not only the Emperor, but morality generally, demand extraordinary proof? The Word Bearers seemed gripped by an absurd definition of "truth". That is, they assumed that because chaos "is", it must be "true". It's rather like deciding that because you don't like George Bush, New Guinea cannibalism should be your new creed.

 

The relationship between Lorgar and Kor Phaeron was disgustingly codependent. If anybody else tried to treat him like a child he'd take their head. Lorgar gets the last laugh, though, since he became one of Chaos' most powerful daemonic servants and Kor got nothing, as far as I can tell. It must be rather galling considering how contemptuous he was (and perhaps still is) of Lorgar. In this book Erebus similarly seemed to treat Lorgar as his pawn rather than his Primarch and master.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I'm about halfway through it. Love the depiction of Guilliman being a complete and total d-bag, as it fits in with my opinion of him.

 

How was Guiliman being a 'complete and total d-bag' though? In reading the scene, he's never described as actually doing anything but standing quietly and passing on the Emperor's orders except to respond to Lorgar's violence. His 'offences' all seem to be entirely in Lorgar's head, he just seems to be quietly doing something he'd rather not do.

[BearersOfSalvation]

That Kor Phaeron and Erebus were seeding compliant Word Bearer worlds with fragments of Chaos worship is a stunning revelation. They weren't corrupted sometime during the Crusade, they were corrupt from the beginning. I wonder how they managed to hide their corruption from everybody. Even without physical corruption, spiritual corruption is usually evident to strong psykers, but the Emperor didn't detect their corruption when he chastised Lorgar.

 

Well, hide it from who? Remember, this is 30k not 40k, the inquisition doesn't exist, and no one knows about the Chaos powers. As far as the legions are concerned, there are no Ruinous Powers, just some xenos that live in the warp. Fulgrim spends years strolling around with a Daemon Sword and no one but an Eldar (who he later kills) even bats an eye, the Luna Wolves see daemonic possession and think it's just an aggressive disease, and even Magnus who pokes around into the Warp all the time doesn't know about the Big Four. In 'modern' 40k they have people deliberately looking for symptoms of corruption, they know a lot of what to look for, and they have an organization dedicated to purging it, but in 30k they don't even believe in the concept of daemonic corruption!

 

The Emperor is the only one who would even really know about corruption, and he seemed to miss a lot of things. I'll file this in the list of HUGE GLARING WARNING SIGNS that it seems he should have seen during the series and that hopefully will be explained by the end. As it is he seems to be either a complete jackass who doesn't care what happens, dumb as a bag of hammers, or engineering the Heresy from the get go.

 

 

I found it rather interesting that Lorgar saw all that horror in the Eye, and all the horror Chaos demanded he create in their name, and still didn't consider that Chaos might be lying to him like he thought the Emperor did. Shouldn't wholesale abandonment of not only the Emperor, but morality generally, demand extraordinary proof?

 

I haven't finished the book yet, but it seems to me that he had already decided that the Emperor and everything he stands for was wrong by the time he came out of isolation aver the scouring of Monarchia. Basically his mind had a god-shaped hole in it, if the Emperor refused to fill it then he'd accept whoever would.

[ICHD?]

I think Lorgar comes across as being a bit petulant. "Oh, you don't want me to worship you so I'm going to go and worship someone else so NERRRR :lol: "

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

again, how many ultra players circle the forums waiting for something negative to be said about them or their primarch??? the response time is uncanny, and kinda creepy.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

<-- Guilty!

 

Though I only visit a few of the sections here, so I might miss a few occasions. Discussing Primarchs and Legions is one of the most enjoyable topics.

 

Edit: I have been known to come to the defense of Dorn and Jonson as well, as they have received a bit of undeserved bad rep lately, but if those were pitched against Guilliman I would take his side, obviously.

[randian]

Well, hide it from who? Remember, this is 30k not 40k, the inquisition doesn't exist, and no one knows about the Chaos powers.

Just because a psyker doesn't know what Chaos is doesn't mean they don't know that something's off about you. As I understand it, Chaos corruption can be sensed by most psykers even if they can't name it and even if you have no physical mutations.

I haven't finished the book yet, but it seems to me that he had already decided that the Emperor and everything he stands for was wrong by the time he came out of isolation aver the scouring of Monarchia. Basically his mind had a god-shaped hole in it, if the Emperor refused to fill it then he'd accept whoever would.

Sure looks that way. My beef is that becoming disenchanted (for example) with the Pope doesn't make Satanism palatable to an ex-Catholic. Since that's basically what Lorgar did, it makes him look totally insane.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Sure looks that way. My beef is that becoming disenchanted (for example) with the Pope doesn't make Satanism palatable to an ex-Catholic. Since that's basically what Lorgar did, it makes him look totally insane.

 

Your metaphor is incorrect. A more fitting one would be that Lorgar was the Pope, and God just told him that not only was he wrong to be a Pope, but that God wasn't in fact God. Then Odin comes along and says "yo."

[Ethrion]

Just finished reading it, start to finish in one sitting, never done that with a book before ever. It was awesome! Ultramarines portrayed as the bad guys at the beginning was brilliant.

 

And this isn't a slur on the writing or on the plot at all - but I thought the Emperor's handling of Lorgar was awful. I mean surely chastising him in such a public and humiliating way was bound to cause problems. But the Emperor does have form when it comes to dealing with certain situations. He is by no means infallible, that much has been proven time and again.

 

The revelations during Argel Tal's daemon-induced visions about the creation of the primarchs was great too. Bit by bit a few more tantalizing scraps of information are hinted at about the 'lost' primarchs and how they were created.

 

10/10 from me!

[Brother Hadafix]

There seems a lot more to it than Lorgar getting a slap and then looking for a new god, he follows a nice trail to chaos before deciding the truths, and it was Lorgars first warning.

As for Granpa Smurf, who knows? Its a supposed brother levelling those allegations, and its clear they dont get on, he had been wanting to give the smurf a slap for a while, Magnus seems to concur.

[Legatus]

he had been wanting to give the smurf a slap for a while, Magnus seems to concur.

Is Magnus mentioned in that book along those lines? Hm, that's odd. I can think of three instances where the Thousand Sons and Magnus seemed to have a positive opinion of Guilliman and the Ultramarines.

[BearersOfSalvation]

again, how many ultra players circle the forums waiting for something negative to be said about them or their primarch??? the response time is uncanny, and kinda creepy.

 

I've played my own chapter for almost 2 decades, dismissing discussion about a book by saying 'oh they're all ultramarines players' is pretty weak.

[BearersOfSalvation]

Sure looks that way. My beef is that becoming disenchanted (for example) with the Pope doesn't make Satanism palatable to an ex-Catholic. Since that's basically what Lorgar did, it makes him look totally insane.

 

This isn't remotely at the same level as that, though - that's just a guy getting disenchanted with a normal human involved in a religion. This is more like Lorgar is the Pope and God came down and told him that he's not actually God, that Christianity is a complete lie, and that he's wasted his entire life up to that point by being the Pope. And he didn't just grab an old Alister Crowley book and start following it, he spent years and was actually in direct conversation with Satan before turning to Satanism.

 

It's a lot bigger break than just 'hmm, the Pope doesn't seem very spiritual' like a lot of real ex-Catholics feel.

[BearersOfSalvation]

Is Magnus mentioned in that book along those lines? Hm, that's odd. I can think of three instances where the Thousand Sons and Magnus seemed to have a positive opinion of Guilliman and the Ultramarines.

 

He's saying that Magnus concurs that Lorgar wanted to give Guiliman a slap, not that Magnus wanted to give Guiliman a slap. Magnus doesn't really come off well in the book IMO, he has all of this knowledge but won't discuss it with his brother, and for some reason assumes that 'don't look into that it's Not For You To Know' will work on Lorgar when it didn't work on him.