Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 again, how many ultra players circle the forums waiting for something negative to be said about them or their primarch??? the response time is uncanny, and kinda creepy. I've played my own chapter for almost 2 decades, dismissing discussion about a book by saying 'oh they're all ultramarines players' is pretty weak. Well, it was a joke aimed at a few people here, and certainly not yourself. and quit overreacting, thats pretty weak. on topic, i am getting the book tuesday, and i CANNOT WAIT! WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO BLOOD - NO FOUL! Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Bought the book friday, was done by Monday. That was the fastest ever for a Black library book, ADB has to be my favorite BL writer. I'm not quite sure where I'd rank this book in the HH series as it's been a while since I read the first three. But my initial response was that this is the best book of the series. This really shows the relationships between the primarchs from Lorgars perspective, with him being the runt of the litter. I've seen comments about Guilleman, but I think he was quite neutral towards his brother. Just following his fathers orders, where as Lorgar was hysterical. I found the reactions of Ferrus, Corax and Kurze more telling about his position in the pack. Just a couple of thoughts about the book. I liked how the daemon called the emperor Anathema, but when asked about it twisted it so that the meaning or the reason for the name became something else. I thought the comments about the lost legions funny. I think the BL writers must be checking out the internet to see if people are taking the bite about their Ultramarine rumour. I find it hard to believe that spacemarines who kill children because a government does not want to comply with the imperium would spare their brothers once they have failed the emperor and besides if the lost legions had been absorbed by the ultramarines wouldn't atleast some of their warriors be known by the other legions? Also I don't think that would really tie in with the comments from Dorn in mechanicum. I might be mistaken but I remember Erebus changing to his legion colors to red, when he is at Horus' side in one of the earlier books. (I have to check back)I find it a bit wierd that it is now just one company. Overall I loved the character of Lorgar. He is so flawed and confused about his role in the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 He's saying that Magnus concurs that Lorgar wanted to give Guiliman a slap, not that Magnus wanted to give Guiliman a slap. Magnus doesn't really come off well in the book IMO, he has all of this knowledge but won't discuss it with his brother, and for some reason assumes that 'don't look into that it's Not For You To Know' will work on Lorgar when it didn't work on him. I think there is a bigger problem with that part of the book, and it was the only thing I didn't like in First Heretic, which is it seems to contradict A Thousand Sons where Magnus is shown to be more or less totally ignorant about the true nature of the beings in the warp, so I didn't really understand why he was even able to give the ominous warnings that he did. Having said that, characterisation-wise, I thought it was as Magnus should be (and also was in A Thousand Sons, more or less). Hopefully that isn't too contradictory! Overall, I think The First Heretic is probably the best of the series to date. I thought the writing was fantastic (in particular liked the segment with Tal and Logar talking about his possession), although the feelings the book produced are a little harder to put into words... In short, the whole novel made me kind of uneasy in a way I can't really put a finger on, I think it's quite a sad story (and it managed that far better than A Thousand Sons did) and that the darkness into which Logar, semi-unwillingly, falls into was not inevitable but I guess maybe it's the idea that his search for truth reveals that the real truth was both horrifying but something that he could not deny. I did find Logar quite a sympathic character, struggling to define his place in the universe. I thought the Primarch who didn't want to be a warrior was a novel idea, well expressed and I think is what added to the saddness around his fall. I guess some will dislike the "weakness" of Logar and the relationship between him and Kor Phaeron but I didn't have a problem with that. As I said above, I like the portayal of Logar a lot. Though, if I was going to criticise (sorry!), I do think there could have been a little more depth to explain why the Primarch had such a close relationship with Kor Phaeron (that Phaeron raised him is known in the background, I know, but in the novel I think it wasn't really explained why Logar followed a non-Primarchs lead so easily). I didn't have a problem with the way it was portrayed, I think it's part of Logars character that he is looking for guidance, for something to follow, but I would just have liked it to have been more fleshed out. The only other negative about the book is more of a series-wide complaint so not ADBs fault, but I think it's unfortunate that in expanding the mythology of the Heresy and exploring the whys and wherefores of how it happened that the Emperor is continually shown to be a complete twat. To me it's almost inexplicable that he wouldn't get that utterly humiliating one of the Primarchs and his entire Legion, in front of another Legion, oh and in the ashen remains of a world that the first Primarch had (more or less) built, wasn't the best way of doing things. I mean, I get that that the Emperor Father/Son thing with the Primarchs is more of an honorific and not really how their relationship worked. And I also appreciate the idea that the Emperor is far above humanity and thus doesn't understand their emotions but though he may not have any empathy with them surely he would recognise that they exist and have an idea of how to deal with them, he's a smart guy right and I mean isn't it Leadership 101 that you don't do that sort of thing to your subordinates? I guess my biggest complaint is that it feeds the idea that the Heresy was deliberate, but that entails the Emperor is soooooo powerful that he didn't just hoodwink all of humanity and the entirety of the rest of the material universe but also the 4 Dark Gods as well. Really, if the Emperor was so powerful that he could outmatch the combined power of the Dark Gods and could see the future better than Tzeentch itself, why on earth would he bother with going through the with hassle of getting stuck on a Golden Toilet, I can't see how a being that powerful would need to do that to "ascend" - if it really needed to ascend anyway. I don't get that idea at all. Well that was longer than expected. TL;DR: The First Heretic is great. :P Oh and apologies that my grammar is a little garbled in places... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Anyone else think it is suspicious that Guilliman was ordered to destroy a planet for their faith in the Emperor, a man who was renowned for his abilities to bring compliant worlds to the Imperial fold with minimal collateral damage, yet there are plenty of Legions out there with much more, enthusiasm, for such endevours? Is there deeper reasons behind this that we will have revealed/hinted at a later date, A D-B? Is Guilliman being punished for something? :D Or is this purely being used by The Emperor to send a message to humanity how even warriors that are renowned as noble can commit genocide, such is The Emperor's seriousness on the matter of religon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Is Guilliman being punished for something? :D If those "rumour" are anything to go by or he turn left instead of right on the parade ground? Forget to say his prayers in the morning? :P Bare in mind I mean this as a little joke. Just finish First Heretic last night & has to be one of the best Heresy books, really enjoy reading ever page to page. Lot of nice stuff. This is a must read in my view for any heresy fanatic. I just regreat that it took me later (bought my copy that Games Day) to read due to a lot of stuff in real life/work life. It really has temp me to start a Word Bearer army right now. IP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Anyone else think it is suspicious that Guilliman was ordered to destroy a planet for their faith in the Emperor, a man who was renowned for his abilities to bring compliant worlds to the Imperial fold with minimal collateral damage, yet there are plenty of Legions out there with much more, enthusiasm, for such endevours? A lot of Primarchs would have been happy to comply. But how many of them could have calmly faced Lorgar afterwards and neutrally inform him of his father's orders? What the Emperor perhaps did not know was that Lorgar had already disliked Guilliman even before this incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Guilliman was probably chose for his professionalism(being raised on a world such as Marcrage this would have been instilled in him from an early age etc) and his ability to control and not let his own personal feelings get in the way of his duty. As Kor Phaeron mentions/hints at; Guilliman is perhaps closet of all the Primarchs to the Emperor, cast from the same mould if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 More likely it was a reminder of what happened to those others that hadnt been up to scratch. Rumour it maybe, but there is no smoke without fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 More likely it was a reminder of what happened to those others that hadnt been up to scratch. Rumour it maybe, but there is no smoke without fire. Or at the very least a reminder that no one is above the Emperor's judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Or the Ultramarines were just closest at the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Or the Ultramarines were just closest at the time... How boring! I found it so exciting to think there was a part to Guilliman that the Emperor was unhappy with. After all, he alone of his brothers is permitted to keep soveriegnity over more than two worlds (Vulkan and Corax both seem to have two under their command). I think it would be cool if The Emperor was also sending Guilliman a message that even he is not beyond His command... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICHD? Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 I loved the part between Malcador and Lorgar though! Malcador: You've been a naughty Primarch! Lorgar: Shut up, human! [bitchslaps Malcador] :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 I think the Emperor sent Guilliman on purpose; trying to convey "This is how you're supposed to do it" kinda message to Lorgar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Stop trying to make me like Lorgar. :woot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Or the Ultramarines were just closest at the time... How boring! I found it so exciting to think there was a part to Guilliman that the Emperor was unhappy with. After all, he alone of his brothers is permitted to keep soveriegnity over more than two worlds (Vulkan and Corax both seem to have two under their command). I think it would be cool if The Emperor was also sending Guilliman a message that even he is not beyond His command... I don't know. Guilliman controls eight worlds. The Emperor controls a million. I think it's obvious who is the bigger fish here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Wasn't/Isn't is eight systems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 It depends on the source. Some say eight worlds, some say eight systems. This annoys Brother Pariah to no end, I might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Guilliman controls eight systems, each with a single inhabited world, or at least that's how I interpreted it. Regardless it's a moot point, the Emperor still controls far, far, far more planets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Except at least one system has more than a single world - remember the Triple Worlds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezek Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Logar just seemed like the little brother that just didn't fit in with the family. He was the weakest general and fighter. The raven guard primarch had him dead to rights until the night lord primarch saved him. He just couldn't be what his father wanted him to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inache Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Package arrived from Amazon this afternoon, and I just finished it in one sitting. And the only reason I did that is because I got Firedrake as well, so I had no reason to stretch it out like Helsreach. Honestly AD-B's best work so far, but my deep seated loathing for Erebus and Kor Phaeron from the opening trilogy served to keep me somewhat removed from fully embracing the Word Bearers Though Xaphen's hatred of Kor Phaeron at the beginning had me chuckling, very 'Me too!' . They made a striking departure from the usual HH take of the Traitor Legions being set upon and mostly in the right. Theirs is a slippery slope right into the embrace of Chaos which was a lot more satisfying at least from a story telling standpoint than Horus' one evening in a sweat-lodge revelation. That being said, you're a big ole mean and nasty tease Mr. AD-B with that tiny bit of Night Lord in there. I do love the fact that some other properties that AD-B's done all got worked into the novel. Some Cadians, which I was a smidge disappointed about that it didn't hit on the pylons that keep the Eye of Terror at bay, but you can't have it all. And the Night Lords just left me dying for more. I'm now desperate for a Night Lords HH book. Talos as Scout cameo, anybody? I think that AD-B really nailed the duality of the Heresy on this one. There's plenty of blame to go around, and the layers within layers of machinations and perceived slights just adds to the personal interpretation. From Big E making a deal with the devil to eventually oust the devil, to Logar not even really being in control of his own legion after a point. Guilliman being the reluctant messenger or penitent heretic himself. It's one big fuster cluck of a mess, and it's so delicious to sort through it all. The many many references and back story filling that also occurred made me a happy fluff nut. Best HH book since Nemesis. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Did that female Chaos cultist ascend or get possessed? I assumed the former, given the daemon kept her name, but I might have missed something. Also, note some unfairness here. She meets Lorgar for a couple of weeks and gets him to kill a single person on his road to Chaos, and becomes a Daemon Prince for her minimal trouble. Kor Phaeron and Erebus (but especially Kor Phaeron) spend years delivering Lorgar and the Word Bearers into the service of Chaos, and have slaughtered billions during and after the Heresy in the service of Chaos, but don't seem to get anything much at all for their efforts. They aren't Daemon Princes and so far as I know they don't possess great gifts of Chaos like Abaddon's. They're just influential figureheads under an absent ruler. Anybody know why the Word Bearers weren't decimated by possession like the Black Legion was? As we see in this story they are the first to have possessed Marines and don't really have any clue what they're dealing with. Besides, losing Marines 5 or 10 to 1 for every successful possession like we see here is the quick road extinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Except at least one system has more than a single world - remember the Triple Worlds? Yes, I would mark them out as an exception if one considers the mechanicus research world and Parmenio as ''inhabited.'' Eight systems could be considered more of a tecnicality since eight worlds is really only described in Ultramar in detail at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Codex Space marines states that Ultramar is no fewer than eight systems.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 The Lexicanum lists 12 worlds from Ultramar, while the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines lists 11, though some of those worlds are llong destroyed (like Prandium) or are listed as Adeptus Mechanicus research or Inquisition training worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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