The First Heretic

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

From your point of view, probably.

How do you figure? "Deliver humanity into the clutches of aliens" isn't exactly an ambiguous statement. It requires no point of view. Either the Emperor did or did not do that. Name one incident where the Emperor commanded troops to sit by and do nothing while aliens attack a human world, or allowed xenos aggression to stand without reply.

 

As for "abandoned the Great Crusade", yes it's true the Emperor stopped personally fighting it. On the other hand, he never commanded it to stop or even slow down appreciably, and the Emperor himself isn't an indispensable linchpin of a military campaign when his personal efforts affect the success of but one out of thousands of fleets. Charging him with abandoning it is a bizarre assertion.

 

It's ambiguous by its nature of being third-hand information as a basis, and the assertations are made by the characters in the book. Even if we take for granted that what we're being told is by a daemon, there is one irrefutable fact of information that damns the Emperor in this case:

the Geller field in the lab

.

 

Without the Space Marines, there would be no Crusade and humanity would have perished to the alien menace.

Without the creation of the Primarchs, there would be no Space Marines.

It is noted that the Emperor lacked the knowledge and technology to craft the Primarchs until after he unified Terra and, purportedly, made his pact with Chaos.

If Chaos played no part in their creation, then for what purpose would the spoiler-tagged piece of equipment be needed?

 

Given that piece of evidence, it stands to logic that Chaos did in fact play a role, that the events recorded did happen, and that the Emperor is guilty of not only lying to the Imperium entire, but had already sold out the species and its future to Chaos as part of the original pact; that he welched on the deal does nothing to absolve him of the fact that he still made the pact. Like it or not, he was going to need Chaos to aid in freeing humanity from its inevitable future of being destroyed by aliens without ever reaching its potential, and through the Primarchs and the Astartes that aid was given, and it couldn't be argued that humanity would have embarked on or succeeded in the Crusade without them. Where the Emperor failed was in believing that there would be no consequences to his collusion with Chaos, which is the entire point of the book: the bill came due, same as Magnus' did, and in the face of the revelation of the lie the Emperor had betrayed the Crusade and humanity, even if that betrayal had happened centuries before. Compound that with his leaving the Crusade to fend for itself while he, as relayed to Horus, went home to ascend to his nascent "godhood" and it makes him a user and a charlatan. This conclusion would not have been glossed over by Lorgar and certainly wouldn't have been by Erebus or Kor Phaeron.

[Sabadin]

If Chaos played no part in their creation, then for what purpose would the spoiler-tagged piece of equipment be needed?

 

To play devil's advocate, during the dark age of technology the Emperor likely would've came into contact with the Eldar at some point and been warned of the Great powers if he was not already aware. Said peice of equipment could have been used solely as an attempt to keep the primarch project secret from them. At this point we lack enough factual evidence to know for sure either way.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

If Chaos played no part in their creation, then for what purpose would the spoiler-tagged piece of equipment be needed?

 

To play devil's advocate, during the dark age of technology the Emperor likely would've came into contact with the Eldar at some point and been warned of the Great powers if he was not already aware. Said peice of equipment could have been used solely as an attempt to keep the primarch project secret from them. At this point we lack enough factual evidence to know for sure either way.

 

That doesn't help his case much. His prior knowledge of said powers would still convict him of lying through his insistent denials of their existence and the propagation of the Imperial Truth. It's even more farfetched to believe he had any contact with the Eldar than it is to assume that particular device, which is a shield and not a cloak, was placed as a "just in case" measure against things that weren't supposed to exist in the first place.

[randian]

That doesn't help his case much. His prior knowledge of said powers would still convict him of lying through his insistent denials of their existence and the propagation of the Imperial Truth.

Convict him how? You have evidence he knows about Chaos and protected his webway project from it. So what? That's exactly what I'd do if I knew about Chaos and was working on a project to create a galactic transportation system that bypassed the Warp. You have no evidence save the claims of a daemon, a species of being known for their pathological propensity to lie, that he had no idea how to make a Primarch until he made a pact with Chaos for that knowledge.

[Technomage]

The Imperial Truth that the Emperor is spreading at gunpoint is that there is no such thing as god, daemons, and sorcery. That there is Chaos Gods and daemons that can be summoned by rituals are proven to be facts. The Emperor knows this to be true and he still denies it and tell his son and servant to convert them to the Imperial Truth or kill them. This means that the Imperium is founded on lies. That he lies to his sons, the Primarchs. In the book "Galaxy in Flames" Loken relies that everything he has been told is a lie. That there is in fact daemons is stunned by this. Nobody like to be lied to. Logar is especially hurt by this because he and his brother Primarch have been destroying entire worlds on the strength of this lie. No empire can survive when the foundations are based on a lie.

[Captain Idaho]

The Imperial Truth that the Emperor is spreading at gunpoint is that there is no such thing as god, daemons, and sorcery. That there is Chaos Gods and daemons that can be summoned by rituals are proven to be facts. The Emperor knows this to be true and he still denies it and tell his son and servant to convert them to the Imperial Truth or kill them. This means that the Imperium is founded on lies. That he lies to his sons, the Primarchs. In the book "Galaxy in Flames" Loken relies that everything he has been told is a lie. That there is in fact daemons is stunned by this. Nobody like to be lied to. Logar is especially hurt by this because he and his brother Primarch have been destroying entire worlds on the strength of this lie. No empire can survive when the foundations are based on a lie.

 

You are looking at it the wrong way, the way of the traitor Primarchs who tried to justify their actions, including murder remember so they aren't all innocent victims.

 

The Emperor lied about the existance of Gods, but he didn't lie that there were beings in the Warp to his sons. Remember Horus Rising where Loken was shocked to his core about the daemon that possessed his brother? Horus explained to him that there were aliens in the warp that were dangerous. How can he have known about that then?

 

It's a matter of semantics, really. The Gods of the warp are essentially the aliens the Emperor described.

 

And then you have to bear in mind the nature of the Warp. The denial of the existance of the Chaos Gods, and the rules against worshipping such entities, are all designed to limit their power. Apart from Psykers, humans are less at risk from the Chaos gods if none of them worship them. This is why Lorgar and his Legion were pivotal to their plans, as they built their power base throughout humanity with them, and ultimately the Heresy caused because of Lorgar and his Legion.

 

Those of us who bought Codex Chaos like to demonise (pun intended) The Emperor because he oppsed their favourite army, but ultimately, he was on the side of humanity when you look at it objectively. Look at it this way; if The Emperor was real and so too were the Chaos Gods, whose side would you really be on? Only the most depraved would choose the latter without any recourse to. Indeed, most of the Primarchs who turned were doing so under duress.

[BearersOfSalvation]

It is noted that the Emperor lacked the knowledge and technology to craft the Primarchs until after he unified Terra and, purportedly, made his pact with Chaos.

If Chaos played no part in their creation, then for what purpose would the spoiler-tagged piece of equipment be needed?

 

To protect them from Chaos. I have a fence around my sheep to keep wolves from getting to them, that doesn't mean that wolves helped raise my herd of sheep. I operate in an environmentally sealed room to keep germs from getting into this artificial heart, that doesn't mean germs helped me build the heart. I keep a Geller field around my space ship when I warp travel to keep daemons out, that doesn't mean daemons built my spaceship.

 

Given that piece of evidence, it stands to logic that Chaos did in fact play a role, that the events recorded did happen, and that the Emperor is guilty of not only lying to the Imperium entire, but had already sold out the species and its future to Chaos as part of the original pact; that he welched on the deal does nothing to absolve him of the fact that he still made the pact.

 

The problem is that the piece of evidence just shows that he didn't want Chaos messing with the Primarchs, not that the Chaos powers had anything to do with him creating the Primarchs. The only places in the series where we've heard about this supposed pact is from Daemons, who are well-known for lying to achieve their ends.

[Ethrion]

It is noted that the Emperor lacked the knowledge and technology to craft the Primarchs until after he unified Terra and, purportedly, made his pact with Chaos.

If Chaos played no part in their creation, then for what purpose would the spoiler-tagged piece of equipment be needed?

 

To protect them from Chaos. I have a fence around my sheep to keep wolves from getting to them, that doesn't mean that wolves helped raise my herd of sheep. I operate in an environmentally sealed room to keep germs from getting into this artificial heart, that doesn't mean germs helped me build the heart. I keep a Geller field around my space ship when I warp travel to keep daemons out, that doesn't mean

 

Spot on mate, I think that analogy perfectly encapsulates the situation! Couldn't have said it any better.

[The Shadow Guard]

The emperor's grand plan was to bulid a massive portal to the webway beneath his palace. Once humanity had access to the webway (which is protected from the effects of the warp) then humanity could travel the galaxy without having to rely on warp travel. The emperor felt that humanity was not yet ready to face the reality of warp beings. Somewhre in the old writings i remember reading that the emperor wanted to thus protect humanity until they evolved in to beings able to resist the warp ie super psykers?? ;) Sadly, lorgar's hubris allowed the powers of thw arp to dent all those carefully laid plans... well they do say some thing about the plans of men and mice...or demons.... :blush:

[calgar101]

My thoughts are that the Emperor was using huge amounts of warp energy to create the Primarchs, this didn't sit well with the Chaos gods who's power he was draining and also they realised he was one fearsome and powerful individual who's goal was their destruction. So he built the Gellar fields to prevent outside interference from any and all warp beings. Also the 'visions' the Word Bearers experience to me are a symbolism of what they're potentially going to do. In False gods chaos shows Horus a vision of the future(40k as it is now) and says this is what will become of the galaxy if he does not turn; turns out they lied and Horus created what he tried to prevent, so why should we trust and believe chaos now?

[Lord Tharand]

It is noted that the Emperor lacked the knowledge and technology to craft the Primarchs until after he unified Terra and, purportedly, made his pact with Chaos.

If Chaos played no part in their creation, then for what purpose would the spoiler-tagged piece of equipment be needed?

 

To protect them from Chaos. I have a fence around my sheep to keep wolves from getting to them, that doesn't mean that wolves helped raise my herd of sheep. I operate in an environmentally sealed room to keep germs from getting into this artificial heart, that doesn't mean germs helped me build the heart. I keep a Geller field around my space ship when I warp travel to keep daemons out, that doesn't mean daemons built my spaceship.

 

Given that piece of evidence, it stands to logic that Chaos did in fact play a role, that the events recorded did happen, and that the Emperor is guilty of not only lying to the Imperium entire, but had already sold out the species and its future to Chaos as part of the original pact; that he welched on the deal does nothing to absolve him of the fact that he still made the pact.

 

The problem is that the piece of evidence just shows that he didn't want Chaos messing with the Primarchs, not that the Chaos powers had anything to do with him creating the Primarchs. The only places in the series where we've heard about this supposed pact is from Daemons, who are well-known for lying to achieve their ends.

 

You hit the nail on the head. It's pretty clear that Emperor didn't want Chaos to taint his primarch project and no real evidence exists that he made any pacts with Chaos. All "evidence" that we have in the series comes from the mouth of a Daemon.

The daemon even attempts to cover his own tracks when talking about the various flaws in the different geneseeds. The daemon Argel Tal that the only flaw with Word Bearers geneseed is to have greater faith in their primarch than other legions. He's basically saying, "If you don't trust me. Trust your primarch because he believes us". There are certainly a lot of lies going on throughout the book but the Word Bearers and Lorgar specifically are blind to them because of this desperate need to cling to a power greater. It's his flaw and it brought down everything

 

[Vassakov]

I feel that all of those who are saying "Why did Lorgar fall so easily?" are overlooking one key, crucial detail.

 

*POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILERS BELOW*

 

 

Colchis. Lorgars homeworld. Now, if I've read TFH right, what I think happened was that Lorgar became the figurehead - or leader - of one faction in a planetary civil war, based on his conviction that the Emperor was the one true God. He committed genocide, on his own people, based on that belief.

 

Then, nearly a centuary after finding this God, his own father not only tells him he is wrong - denies what Lorgar considers the fundemental truth - but also destroys one of his greatest achievements.

 

That's enough to seriously unbalance someone.

 

The reason Lorgar falls to Chaos, however, seems to be because the culture Lorgar tried to destroy on Colchis was - if I've read this right - a Chaos culture. Perhaps not full scale, daemonic possession, walls-made-of-skinned-virgins, look-at-us-we're-evil Chaos - but worshippers of Chaos nonetheless.

 

And the final reason? Kor Phareon, Lorgars most trusted confidant, his de-facto father, tells him that actually... all the wars they've fought, the atrocities they have perpatrated, the death he has commanded... not only is it based on a lie - it's been committed on the true followers of the true Gods.

 

Faced with that revalation, is it any wonder that Lorgar - for whom truth and religion seem to be synonomous, and given the events on Cadia and what happens to Argel Tal in the Eye - apparently confirming the existance of the True Gods - decides to bring this "truth" to the Imperium, which for him is based on a total lie.

 

[Dark Mechanicum]

A couple things: One Talos was a full fledged marine during the Heresy its in Soul Hunter.

 

Back to the Word Bearers: Its in Battle of the Abyss that the color change is mostly mentioned. The Serrated Sun is the first group so that they were shown to be different since they were possessed. After the Word Bearers fully declare for the heresy the rest of the legion changes color.

 

On the webway: As soon as the Emperor would have opened that webway gate and tried to go through it. The Imperium would have lost Terra to the Eldar. Since they would have come on through and pretty much taken out all invaders. The Webway gate would have changed the focus of the Crusade too much so it would have been a choice: Go and invade Eldar Territory and try to wipe them out, send some legions through to fight the eldar while trying to keep the rest of the crusade going, or the final one: Stop teh crusade and focus on what was earned and a very slow war against the webway and its guardians.

 

There is just too much and everything, also on the Word Bearers faith: yes they worshipped Chaos, so have many different cultures that the Word Bearers have come across. Kor Phaeron who has always been the guy who never truly believed in the Emperor sets up the pockets of the cultures and their faith for survival. Erebus wants more power as he his Primarch lose faith. He goes for it and is able to pretty much take over. Its very interesting with those two because it shows that some people just shouldn't be Astartes.

[Valkyrion]

Why would the Eldar have invaded Terra and where is it suggested so?

[Hellios]

Why would the Eldar have invaded Terra and where is it suggested so?

 

I don't know that it is said anywhere but Humans with access to the Webway would be a huge threat... however on that note the webway is huge and many bits are in a state of disrepair so it is even possible that the Eldar would not be able to get to the human portal.

[Valkyrion]

If the Eldar were powerful enough to exterminate humanity, they would do.

But they aren't, and weren't for at least 1000 years before the Great Crusade began.

 

By the time the Emperor retired from the crusade to (maybe) attend to the webway portal he found on Terra, the Eldar were already dying and had no chance of performing a successful invasion of Terra.

 

Magnus also found a webway portal, survived, no Eldar present, no one that bothered.

 

The Eldar had diminished to such an extent they weren't a threat at all throughout the crusade. For such a major race they've been reduced to cameo roles in both 40k and 30k.

[Badaboom]

some people just shouldn't be Astartes.

 

Going across all the HH novels, I sincerely think the Legions are full of ass***es. Abbadon is a maniac, Erebus is a snake, Lucius is..well...Lucius, and Eidolon is someone who never should have reached such status. What about Typhoon, or the stupid Grulgor? Surely they all had exceptional qualities, or none of them would have survived the trials and modifications to become an Astartes, but it seems the Legions were way too open for new recruits that time.

[Valkyrion]

They are the most powerful men in the galaxy that can only do war. They can't run a successful company, they can't Don Juan a load of women, they can't play football for Burnley FC, they can't become king of the world, they can only fight very well.

 

Is it any wonder that a few of them are a bit...unhinged?

 

What have they to talk about or form friendships over other than familiarity (which also breeds contempt).

'Oh, hi Erebus, did you have a nice pray?'

'Yes thanks Ezekyle, did you enjoy killing lots of things today?'

'Oh yes thanks'

sounds of whistling and feet shuffling

'Ok then Erebus, see you tomorrow'

'Bye then'

[douchie]

some people just shouldn't be Astartes.

 

Going across all the HH novels, I sincerely think the Legions are full of ass***es. Abbadon is a maniac, Erebus is a snake, Lucius is..well...Lucius, and Eidolon is someone who never should have reached such status. What about Typhoon, or the stupid Grulgor? Surely they all had exceptional qualities, or none of them would have survived the trials and modifications to become an Astartes, but it seems the Legions were way too open for new recruits that time.

 

but are those 'qualities' going to be obvious when these guys are only aspirants?

 

They would be 100% focused upon becoming asartes & serving the Emperor in the great crusade. Only when they attained brother hood & later command would they have developed other parts of their character.

 

Lucius had excellent martial prowess, but did his arrogence stem from he own personality or changes brought about by the geneseed of Fulgrim? Or a combination of both. I think of Eidolon much in the same regards, his arrogence growing with his rise through the ranks.

 

I think Abbadon comes across quite well in the first book especially.

 

Grulgor & Typhon were examples of warriors recruited from the planet of their own primarch & so probably display traits from the background (which their Primarch would've wanted in his own Legion). Is Garro different because he is Terran?

 

I think alot of different factors come into play, when thinking of the development of an Astartes personality.

 

In hindsight it obvious these guys were trouble.

[Solid Zaku]

Finished it today. Tears, man. Real manly tears.

 

I completely agree with the sheep/wolves analogy. Just remember how Horus was duped. He was shown part of the truth, but not the ENTIRE truth, just enough that fitted into the Daemon's schemes in order to fool those involved. Nice work on Ingethel's part.

 

Oh man, though, I am DYING to find out what happened to II and XI. I think Matt Ward's head imploded with anger after reading that little bit.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

It is noted that the Emperor lacked the knowledge and technology to craft the Primarchs until after he unified Terra and, purportedly, made his pact with Chaos.

If Chaos played no part in their creation, then for what purpose would the spoiler-tagged piece of equipment be needed?

 

To protect them from Chaos. I have a fence around my sheep to keep wolves from getting to them, that doesn't mean that wolves helped raise my herd of sheep. I operate in an environmentally sealed room to keep germs from getting into this artificial heart, that doesn't mean germs helped me build the heart. I keep a Geller field around my space ship when I warp travel to keep daemons out, that doesn't mean daemons built my spaceship.

 

 

That doesn't wash, sorry. You built a fence to keep wolves you've been telling your sheep don't exist out, but why build a fence if there are no wolves? You live in a sealed room to keep germs away from your artificial heart, but why have an sealed room if there's no germs? You keep a Gellar field around your spaceship to keep daemons out and justify it as protection from the energy of the Warp, but if there are no daemons to be afraid of and no Warp energy in your lab, why is there a Gellar field there?

 

You don't take a precaution without a hazard to be cautious of. The Emperor built his fence, lied about the wolves, then told his sheep he wasn't a shepherd while letting them out into the woods.

[Sabadin]

That doesn't wash, sorry. You built a fence to keep wolves you've been telling your sheep don't exist out, but why build a fence if there are no wolves? You live in a sealed room to keep germs away from your artificial heart, but why have an sealed room if there's no germs? You keep a Gellar field around your spaceship to keep daemons out and justify it as protection from the energy of the Warp, but if there are no daemons to be afraid of and no Warp energy in your lab, why is there a Gellar field there?

 

You don't take a precaution without a hazard to be cautious of. The Emperor built his fence, lied about the wolves, then told his sheep he wasn't a shepherd while letting them out into the woods.

 

Let's put it this way, if you had wolves that became more powerful everytime you uttered the word "wolves", would you run around telling everyone to be careful of these wolves? Or would you do everything in your power to isolate them in hopes their power would dwindle away and die off as they're slowly forgotten about?

[BearersOfSalvation]

It is noted that the Emperor lacked the knowledge and technology to craft the Primarchs until after he unified Terra and, purportedly, made his pact with Chaos.

If Chaos played no part in their creation, then for what purpose would the spoiler-tagged piece of equipment be needed?

 

That doesn't wash, sorry. You built a fence to keep wolves you've been telling your sheep don't exist out, but why build a fence if there are no wolves? You live in a sealed room to keep germs away from your artificial heart, but why have an sealed room if there's no germs? You keep a Gellar field around your spaceship to keep daemons out and justify it as protection from the energy of the Warp, but if there are no daemons to be afraid of and no Warp energy in your lab, why is there a Gellar field there?

 

What doesn't wash is your response, it's a non-sequitor as far as supporting your original claim. You argued that the Gellar field was evidence that Chaos played a part in the creation of the primarchs, now you're arguing that it's just evidence that Chaos exists and is malevolent, but acting like this supports your earlier statement. The fact that you don't tell your sheep about wolves doesn't mean that wolves made your sheep. The fact that there are germs doesn't mean that germs built your artificial heart. The fact that there are daemons doesn't mean they built your Primarchs, neither does the fact that there is warp energy in the lab.

 

You don't take a precaution without a hazard to be cautious of. The Emperor built his fence, lied about the wolves, then told his sheep he wasn't a shepherd while letting them out into the woods.

 

The fact that something is a hazard to your project doesn't mean that it helped you create your project. You've failed to show how 'the Emperor used a Gellar field' shows 'The Emperor made a pact with Chaos', trying to turn the discussion to another direction doesn't support your point. I think it's been pretty obvious that the Emperor knew the Chaos powers existed but said the opposite to his followers, and I don't think ANYONE is arguing against that. It simply doesn't offer any support for the idea of the Emperor making a pact with Chaos powers.

 

Here's a Sherlock Homes scene illustrating the problem with the logic you've employed:

"Egad Holmes, he's locked his laboratory to keep us from having a look at his dastardly device!"

"Damn, now I must turn myself in to the police for helping create it."

"I don't understand, you had nothing to do with making it, you just turned up now!"

"Ahh Watson, perhaps you should study up on Khestra's tome of logic. You see, since he locked the door against me, clearly he had my help in creating the device, and further there is no reason to suppose that the locked the door to keep me from breaking the device. No, clearly I'm a conspiritor of his, and must serve my time. Good day to you!"

[pueriexdeus]

Let me see if I get this straight, Logar sends his boys into the Warp with a Daemon guide. This Daemon gives them a vision to show the truth... And you believe it just because the Daemon says so.

[Dark Mechanicum]

When the Eye is already prophesised in your own faith? When they speak the same language found on your planet? If I was one of them, I would believe it as well due to how they are raised. Argel Tal questions and he actually goes to it but believes himself damned in the process. But he also goes along because as the daemon keeps saying. I have no reason to lie to you.