Bjorn Firewalker Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 I just began reading the novel, and I realize the Emperor totally ;) ed up when dealing with Lorgar. I mean, destroying works the Primarch devoted YEARS to complete, and then telling Lorgar everything his efforts were wasted, in a manner that publicly humiliated him AND HIS ENTIRE LEGION before another Primarch... I dare say, if the Emperor chastised Guilliman or Dorn like this, even they'd feel treasonous and heretical. I also thought of a way the Emperor could deliver a message WITHOUT publicly humiliating Lorgar and his sons: 1) The Ultramarines declare the "perfect city" and its ilk are contaminated with radioactive material, and must be evacuated for the citizens' safety. Set up field hospitals nearby, and treat the citizens for "radiation poisoning"- a perfect opportunity to brainwash them into atheists- to support the fiction. 2) Claim the statues and temples were constructed with radioactive materials, and demolish them. Let the planetary governor call the Word Bearers to help "decontaminate" the cities. 3) When Lorgar arrives, have him meet the Emperor- and Guilliman and Malchador, if necessary- IN PRIVATE, sparing the Primarch and his sons a lot of grief. The Word Bearers don't need to know the Emperor is disappointed in them or their Primarch. 4) Assign Custodes as necessary, claiming their presence "demonstrates Lorgar speaks for the Emperor, and his orders should be carried out as the Emperor's own," so others- including the Word Bearers themselves- won't ask embarrassing questions. (The Custodes are actually there to keep an eye on Lorgar, and make sure the Primarch obeys the Emperor's edicts, but NO ONE ELSE needs to know the real reason.) Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2554149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 I just began reading the novel, and I realize the Emperor totally :blush: ed up when dealing with Lorgar. I mean, destroying works the Primarch devoted YEARS to complete, and then telling Lorgar everything his efforts were wasted, in a manner that publicly humiliated him AND HIS ENTIRE LEGION before another Primarch... I dare say, if the Emperor chastised Guilliman or Dorn like this, even they'd feel treasonous and heretical. I also thought of a way the Emperor could deliver a message WITHOUT publicly humiliating Lorgar and his sons: 1) The Ultramarines declare the "perfect city" and its ilk are contaminated with radioactive material, and must be evacuated for the citizens' safety. Set up field hospitals nearby, and treat the citizens for "radiation poisoning"- a perfect opportunity to brainwash them into atheists- to support the fiction. 2) Claim the statues and temples were constructed with radioactive materials, and demolish them. Let the planetary governor call the Word Bearers to help "decontaminate" the cities. 3) When Lorgar arrives, have him meet the Emperor- and Guilliman and Malchador, if necessary- IN PRIVATE, sparing the Primarch and his sons a lot of grief. The Word Bearers don't need to know the Emperor is disappointed in them or their Primarch. 4) Assign Custodes as necessary, claiming their presence "demonstrates Lorgar speaks for the Emperor, and his orders should be carried out as the Emperor's own," so others- including the Word Bearers themselves- won't ask embarrassing questions. (The Custodes are actually there to keep an eye on Lorgar, and make sure the Primarch obeys the Emperor's edicts, but NO ONE ELSE needs to know the real reason.) Thoughts? Why should Lorgar be mummy cuddled so much? The guy was seriously weak. He was so desparate to believe in something it bordered on pathetic. Sure I get his reasons, and the book was well done, but the mistake the Emperor made was not to save Lorgar's feelings, but allowing him to live. His crimes were on par with his lost brothers but the discussion of Magnus and Lorgar and was on the cards. I felt no sympathy at all for Lorgar save a brief flicker at the begining. In a way we can blame Russ for the Heresy as he was one of the main 3 Primarchs who railed against the proposed destruction of Lorgar and his Legion. When the Eye is already prophesised in your own faith? When they speak the same language found on your planet? If I was one of them, I would believe it as well due to how they are raised. Argel Tal questions and he actually goes to it but believes himself damned in the process. But he also goes along because as the daemon keeps saying. I have no reason to lie to you. If I was one of them I would believe but if the Gods I sought were so despicable then I would do all I could to fight against them. There was nothing wholesome and enticing offered so it shows just how damaged Lorgar and his Legion were to embrace the dark Gods... Here is a question for A D-B (though you have never commented on anything I posted before...): How come the Daemons of the Warp were able to transport into the Emperor's most vital chambers and bring mortal souls with them who could affect the environment around them, despite the prescence of the Emperor's defences which included a Gellar Field? Is it artistic liscence or just a loop hole? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2554709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 More likely some ritualistic explanation. Perhaps the Warp required it to be done by willing mortal souls, instead of just by your average Joe Gribbly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 Why should Lorgar be mummy cuddled so much? The guy was seriously weak. Perhaps, but paraphrasing Ciaphas Cain, "Is it not written in The Manual of Common Sense that pissing off the superhuman leader of 100,000 superhuman soldiers- all capable of crushing a human skull with their bare hands, led by one who can rend battle tanks with their bare hands- is the act of a suicidal fool?" At the very least, the Emperor should've relieved Lorgar of command, BEFORE the Word Bearers arrived on Khur- to isolate the Primarch, denying him potential supporters if Lorgar plotted treachery, BEFORE the thought could even enter the Primarch's mind. His crimes were on par with his lost brothers but the discussion of Magnus and Lorgar and was on the cards. I thought the worst of his crimes were committed AFTER the Emperor chastised him? (I may be wrong; I've yet to finish the book.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 I thought the worst of his crimes were committed AFTER the Emperor chastised him? (I may be wrong; I've yet to finish the book.) Indeed he was to go to commit much crimes but his initial crimes were more than enough to warrant his execution/imprisonment. Don't get me wrong, A D-B did a great job of showing us why Lorgar fell, it made sense and wasn't cheesey or anything. But just because I understand his fall doesn't mean I agree with it. His interaction and acquiesce with his other Primarchs showed where he stood in the pack, at least in the eyes of his peers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 It was his weakness, all the Primarchs had one and the needing to have some one to worship was his. Although his faith is a double edged sword as it was at times his greatest ally. In that sense though he was weak, weak for needing something to cling to and to expand slightly on one of Idaho's points I saw him near the bottom of the pack especially after the fight in the back of the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 A delicious bit of irony the "weakest" brother was the biggest catalyst for the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest33 Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 A delicious bit of irony the "weakest" brother was the biggest catalyst for the Heresy. I dont believe he was at all. Erebus and Kor caused the heresy, Logar just followed their commands really. The weakling primarch in the end was the biggest weakling. Nothing more Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Lox Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 I really enjoyed that little tidbit about the Word Bearers Pre-Primarch name. When the daemon possessed Astartes are being honored, Lorgar said that the "Imperial Heralds became the Word Bearers". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 A delicious bit of irony the "weakest" brother was the biggest catalyst for the Heresy. Frank Herbert was fond of that idea. The weakest member of the tribe has the strongest effect on it's destiny. Or, the more needs one has, the more others must bend to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 Here is a question for A D-B (though you have never commented on anything I posted before...): How come the Daemons of the Warp were able to transport into the Emperor's most vital chambers and bring mortal souls with them who could affect the environment around them, despite the prescence of the Emperor's defences which included a Gellar Field? Is it artistic liscence or just a loop hole? :P I think this scene was all illusion. They were made to feel as if they were there and caused the whole thing but maybe they just saw a version of what happened. Just like Horus. There is no rule that the deamons have to be telling the truth. The closer to the truth might make it easier to fool people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Here is a question for A D-B (though you have never commented on anything I posted before...): How come the Daemons of the Warp were able to transport into the Emperor's most vital chambers and bring mortal souls with them who could affect the environment around them, despite the prescence of the Emperor's defences which included a Gellar Field? Is it artistic liscence or just a loop hole? :devil: I think this scene was all illusion. They were made to feel as if they were there and caused the whole thing but maybe they just saw a version of what happened. Just like Horus. There is no rule that the deamons have to be telling the truth. The closer to the truth might make it easier to fool people. Although his swords actually breaking, the daemon telling them to be careful because of the emperor, and them hearing Horus makes me feel that they were actually there. I used to think the scene from false gods was just a vision, now I'm not so sure Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 But there are questions either way. If the times at the Emperor's palace were merely visions, then we have the problem that we still don't know what caused the "accident". However if the Word Bearers were infact there, then we have the question of why did the Chaos Gods send the Primarchs to the worlds they did when they could have sent them all to corrupted worlds or even killed them? Did the Emperor actually plan for this with each capsule having warding devices that prevented warp based destruction and intrusion, and homing beacons for human worlds? Thinking about the Gellar field, I was thinking it was soley around the Primarchs and not the surrounding laboratory (silly cost cutting cost the Emperor big I think). That explains how they could manipulate the events but not the Primarchs themselves when combined with the above. The closer to the truth might make it easier to fool people Indeed a Chaos cultist perhaps. I thought that the Word Bearers had actually possessed technicians there, which was my theory. Same as Horus which was why the Custodes thought he was an abomination. What do people think here? This explains my issues with the gellar field etc. Also it is ironic that soon to be possessed Space Marines end up possessing people and I liked that thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Congratulations to ADB for making the New York Best Seller's List with The First Heretic (linky, no.28) :lol: I look forward to seeing the updated business cards and knowing that world domination is one step closer for a Black Library author. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2555895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Here is a question for A D-B (though you have never commented on anything I posted before...): How come the Daemons of the Warp were able to transport into the Emperor's most vital chambers and bring mortal souls with them who could affect the environment around them, despite the prescence of the Emperor's defences which included a Gellar Field? Is it artistic liscence or just a loop hole? :P I think this scene was all illusion. They were made to feel as if they were there and caused the whole thing but maybe they just saw a version of what happened. Just like Horus. There is no rule that the deamons have to be telling the truth. The closer to the truth might make it easier to fool people. Although his swords actually breaking, the daemon telling them to be careful because of the emperor, and them hearing Horus makes me feel that they were actually there. I used to think the scene from false gods was just a vision, now I'm not so sure How hard would it be for a deamon to break some swords? And you can not really trust anything a deamon says right? If breaking some swords is what was needed to push the first Astartes to accept possession i think they could have pulled it off. They were in the Eye of Terror after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Eidolon is someone who never should have reached such status. In a Legion as obsessed with perfection as the Empero's Children I have no idea how someone so clearly as incompetent as Eidolon became an Astartes, let alone a commander. Throughout the original trilogy he is routinely making bad descisions and made to look like an idiot. One of Fulgrim's most trusted Lord Commanders can't possibly be that stupid. Surely they all had exceptional qualities, or none of them would have survived the trials and modifications to become an Astartes, but it seems the Legions were way too open for new recruits that time. What exceptional qualities did Eidolon show? Seriously, I can see what the rest of the others had to offer, but I can't see anything positive about his tactical and strategic skills at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Congratulations to ADB for making the New York Best Seller's List with The First Heretic (linky, no.28) :P I look forward to seeing the updated business cards and knowing that world domination is one step closer for a Black Library author. Serious congratulations! *salute* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Aye, *pounds fist to chest* hail Bowden! By the way, isn't one of the reasons Lorgar is so fouled up due to the fact he was Warp-baked for, what, months according to Ingethel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Surely they all had exceptional qualities, or none of them would have survived the trials and modifications to become an Astartes, but it seems the Legions were way too open for new recruits that time. What exceptional qualities did Eidolon show? Seriously, I can see what the rest of the others had to offer, but I can't see anything positive about his tactical and strategic skills at all. Do we ever see him fight? He may have been promoted for his excellent personal combat skills; good fighters do not always good tacticians make-look at Hermann Goering. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearersOfSalvation Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Although his swords actually breaking, the daemon telling them to be careful because of the emperor, and them hearing Horus makes me feel that they were actually there. I used to think the scene from false gods was just a vision, now I'm not so sure Daemons are known to be good at lying - saying that there is a danger that isn't really there to convince someone your lie is true is a decent technique, as is breaking a couple of swords to convince someone they took a real action. I don't think any of the Word Bearers actually heard Horus, when Lorgar is getting the story the part about hearing Horus comes from the daemon, not from Tal himself. If the visions really did involve time travel and weren't just fakes, it's probable that the Daemons needed the Word Bearers and their gene-seed's connection with the project to get through the Emperor's defenses, blood magic is a common theme in the stories. I suspect the issue of what happened with the Primarchs will be clearer by the end of the series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 The First Heretic revealed that Lorgar was a psyker. Is that a previously-known fact about Lorgar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 No, it wasn't known that he was psychic, but it's not particularly shocking news. Also, remember that a lot of Primarchs had previously unknown psychic power, Corax comes to mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 The First Heretic revealed that Lorgar was a psyker. Is that a previously-known fact about Lorgar? The lightning tower makes a slight reference. Rogal dorn remarks that there has always been something sorcerous about Magnus and Lorgar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Doesn't the daemon go on to mention something about a bigger plan and bigger picture? Maybe not using those words, but I think it is implied. The Chaos gods were betrayed by the emperor, so a long con begins, starting with the whisking away of the primarchs, to the horus heresy and ultimately Horus' failure, thereby allowing the human race to survive but with knowledge of the chaos gods now impossible to hide or ignore. It is a given that daemons lie, but there will also be truths. You've got to find the starting lie (or truth) and unravel it from there. Everything that follows the primarchs scattering suggests to me that the Chaos gods had planned it all - did they do so because they were betrayed by the Emperor, or because they were afraid of the Emperor creating a godless galaxy? FWIW, I think the starting 'lie' was the Emperor bargaining with the Chaos Gods - I think this was in fact true and the catalyst for everything else. Everything has been shaded grey and open to interpretation. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the Eldar involved in a future book. Although they can't really abide mankind, the Emperor is a singular individual and could probably be debated with, especially before the primarchs, marines and great crusade had begun. A small but important cameo, as is their wont. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 The question is the nature of the lie though. Was it an out and out lie or a subtle deliberate mis-leading inference twisting the truth? It could be that the original science of creation of the Primarchs was gifted from the Gods, so they felt there was an infringement on their lore in it's use, and the Emperor didn't ask permission. It could be that the Gods felt the use of the Warp to create the Primarchs was a violation of their property. These seem like likely truths to me. This raises additional questions: Were the Chaos Gods even betrayed? They are a pretty selfish bunch and not exactly trustworthy so it is possible their view of the Emperor's betrayal wasn't a betrayal at all? It could be possible that The Emperor thought "these creatures always harm and betray others so why shouldn't I do that to them?" And of course the Emperor warned Magnus of bargaining with such beings, and that could be because he had first hand experience of the matter. Oh Oh I forget to mention, I'm really liking Corax in this novel. He is really a powerful individual and shown his emotive side. The fell power of the Possessed couldn't stand against him, and it took Lorgar's railing against fate to interupt the plans of the Chaos Gods by engaging him in combat to save them all. His weapons were awesome too. And lastly, did anyone else really enjoy the death of Xaphen? I felt it was a real victory for Syrian (think that was his name) right at the end! I'm hating Dark Apostles so the more of them killed the better! I'm just looking forward to someone finally killing Erebus in a later novel! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212959-the-first-heretic/page/6/#findComment-2556518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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