The First Heretic

[Legatus]

and cool.gif that Legion got so large because it absorbed the left overs of one of the lost Legions, which we discover the Emperor had destroyed - likely by the ultramarines. here the emperor is sending the signal 'I have killed sons before, I will kill you if you dont ack' right.'

A few Word Bearers might actually believe that, so it could have an effect on them, but the Emperor doesn't, so that was probably not his intention.

[Vixthra]

For me, easily the best book in the series.

 

As a long time Word Bearers fan boi and advocate of Lorgars stance this has been long awaited by me. Had it on pre order and when I saw it in the shops and my copy STILL hadn't arrived...well...let's just say I own two copies now haha.

 

I even went so far as to buy all of A-D-B's other books before it's release just to make sure he was the man for the job before TFH came out (and goddamn was I glad it was him, my hat is off to you Sir) because let's be honest, handling how the heresy started must be a daunting task for anyone.

 

I will be a douchebag here though but only because I have an English Literature degree so I'll critisise Mr A-D-B for using the word 'span' instead of 'spun' on page 254, don't you have proof readers heehee.

 

Anyway I'll stop being an ass-hat and just say thank you for giving me the first book in a long time that I repeatedly put down because if I continued reading it then it would be finished and then I wouldnt be able to read it anymore. Here's to rationing perfection ( *cough* span *cough*)

[Captain Idaho]

on this 'why the ultramarines business'

 

the think Guilliman was sent a) because his Legion is the only legion larger than Logar's and :) that Legion got so large because it absorbed the left overs of one of the lost Legions, which we discover the Emperor had destroyed - likely by the ultramarines. here the emperor is sending the signal 'I have killed sons before, I will kill you if you dont ack' right.'

 

Personally I think there could be truth in what you say (it makes perfect sense) but you should perhaps prefix your theory (to which I possibly agree with!) with "as believed by the Word Bearers".

 

I would say there is truth in your statement though, with a slightly amended theory. Russ was especially perturbed with regards to the possible loss of a brother and we know that his Legion was ordered to destroy the Thousand Sons. Likely they weren't chosen by random chance but as a unit with some experience in killing their fellow Astartes before the Heresy...

 

So I would say it would be likely that, if it is true the Ultramarines assimilated a portion of the "lost Legions" that both they and the Space Wolves were involved in their pacification previously.

 

And it sends the message the Emperor might of wanted if one of those Legions was his Honour Guard with regards to passing his message to Lorgar.

 

Of course, to contradict myself, there are holes in this theory. Lorgar and his Legion never felt threatened by the Ultramarines. I don't mean this in a cowardly way, rather that they felt there would be conflict between them. So I doubt the hidden message of "do as I say or you're next" was really being conveyed by The Emperor.

 

Also, the Ultramarines were very shocked at the thought of conflict with their brother Legion and at the sight of Lorgar striking Guilliman. This implies that they haven't had experience in Astartes on Astartes violence in the past. They certainly wouldn't be fearful of being out numbered and facing certain death, as no Space Marine is a coward.

[Hialmar]

I think the Emperor sent Guilliman on purpose; trying to convey "This is how you're supposed to do it" kinda message to Lorgar.

 

This was how I viewd it.

 

I didn't really like Lorgars casual disprespect and contempt for Malcador though...

 

The part of this that really made no sense to me was him belittling Malcador basically as a "mere human" and yet accepting his "Father", and here I am referring to Kor Phaeron, as a fellow Marine and a trusted advisor, going so far as to put him in charge of the 1st Company, despite that "father" being not a Marine at all but a mere human as well.

 

Throughout this entire series the portrayals of the Emperor and the Primarchs really comes off as them being a bunch of spoiled petulant children with more weaknesses than strengths, and it is hard to picture them managing to accomplish anything at all, let alone conquering all the worlds and territory that they did.

 

The one portion of this book that I found fairly jarring was the change in point of view at the midpoint, where all of a sudden an event occurs with a certain result, and then most of the rest of the book is told in a sort of "flashback" retelling of what had just occured. Some of the retelling appeared to also be unnecessary, such as Lorgar requesting that Argel Tal tell him about events that occured while Lorgar was present in the room. Other than the shift in point of view in the story as a retelling, some of this information was already known to Lorgar and should not have been needed.

 

I think overall the book was okay, not my favorite of the HH series so far, although better than Descent of Angels, A Thousand Sons or Nemesis in my opinion. From the same author I personally thought that both Helsreach and Soul Hunter were the better books.

 

I think in part, a lot of the issues I have with the Horus Heresy books as a whole is that the authors are now having to portray events and characters that are to a large part already known and now they are left to fill in the details. In addition, they then are forced in somewhat limited space, to explain how these supposedly incredible and nearly perfect beings, particularly the Emperor & Primarchs, somehow managed to screw things up so badly. On the one hand you have your normal citizen of the Imperium barely able to even look at a Primarch without being overwhelmed by their perfection, and even the Space Marines in general are just awestruck by the Primarchs. Then on the other hand, for the most part as soon as any of the Primarchs seem to open their mouths in any of these books, they tend to come off as a bunch of goofball, whiny losers with some serious psychological issues, hardly the awesome beings they are perceived to be by the other characters in the books.

[BearersOfSalvation]

The part of this that really made no sense to me was him belittling Malcador basically as a "mere human" and yet accepting his "Father", and here I am referring to Kor Phaeron, as a fellow Marine and a trusted advisor, going so far as to put him in charge of the 1st Company, despite that "father" being not a Marine at all but a mere human as well.

 

That's the way real humans do things - it's the old 'some of my best friends are black' phenomenon. It's very common for a person to hate group X and think they're all lazy or weak, but to except his close friend from that group for some reason. Kor Phaeron has also been whispering in Lorgar's ear long enough to convince him that Kor is actually chosen in some way, even if he's not an astartes.

 

On the one hand you have your normal citizen of the Imperium barely able to even look at a Primarch without being overwhelmed by their perfection, and even the Space Marines in general are just awestruck by the Primarchs. Then on the other hand, for the most part as soon as any of the Primarchs seem to open their mouths in any of these books, they tend to come off as a bunch of goofball, whiny losers with some serious psychological issues, hardly the awesome beings they are perceived to be by the other characters in the books.

 

I think a lot of the 'I see perfection' stuff isn't really from how the Primarch looks and acts, but because they have psychic abilities that work to make people see them as godlike. It's clear that Primarchs have abilities beyond simple physical toughness, so it's not really a stretch to think that one of the abilities messes with people's perception of them.

[Captain Idaho]

The Emperor is no "mere human".

[calgar101]

I'd put money on him not even being human at all.

[gaurdian31]

He's a C'tan or Eldar.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

He's a C'tan or Eldar.

 

Yeah, we're going to need some citations for that. I'll buy the Suicide Shaman theory over either of those. :)

[calgar101]

I have two ideas; he is a an Old One who watched over a guided humanity etc and refused to hide/run from the C'tan and Enslaver plague. Or is just some super bad ass being that is one of a kind and liked humanity... I definitely think he is not some super human psyker as don't you think that at least another super human psyker would've been born in the 40,000 ish years since he was?

[augustmanifesto]

well, the Emperor certainyl DID show willingness to harm other legions, as he destroyed two of them, as the book reveals. So, it seems a justifiable inference that the Emperor was trying to communicate the possibility Lorgar that his legion may end up the same if they don't shape up given that he used the ultramarines, which obsorbed the left overs of one of the other legions (and therefore also likely fought against). This would have to have been seen as the message, and the emperor would have had to have known that -- it's extremely obvious

 

furthermore, Magnus reveals to logar that there was discussion about destroying the word bearers, so we can treat the issue as a factual one.

[Legatus]

So, it seems a justifiable inference that the Emperor was trying to communicate the possibility Lorgar that his legion may end up the same if they don't shape up given that he used the ultramarines, which obsorbed the left overs of one of the other legions (and therefore also likely fought against).

I cringe every time someone talks about that as if that was actually what had happened. :D

[Captain Idaho]

well, the Emperor certainyl DID show willingness to harm other legions, as he destroyed two of them, as the book reveals. So, it seems a justifiable inference that the Emperor was trying to communicate the possibility Lorgar that his legion may end up the same if they don't shape up given that he used the ultramarines, which obsorbed the left overs of one of the other legions (and therefore also likely fought against). This would have to have been seen as the message, and the emperor would have had to have known that -- it's extremely obvious

 

Yet this leaves a large question; why were the Ultramarines so shocked at the thought of Astartes on Astartes violence if they had been involved previously?

 

Remember that the Word Bearers themselves dispute the veracity of the Ultramarines having assimilated the Lost Legions...

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Yet this leaves a large question; why were the Ultramarines so shocked at the thought of Astartes on Astartes violence if they had been involved previously?

 

Because the Ultramarines we've met in the Horus Heresy thus far weren't among the Ultramarines that did the deed? :D

[Badaboom]

How could Astartes from a destroyed legion be assimilated by one of the legions who destroyed their own? That´s nonsense. Also, Astartes are considered to be immortal by the time of the Heresy, so lots of Ultramarine Veterans had probably fought on the Liberation Wars in Terra and still be alive and kicking.

[Gaz1858]

How could Astartes from a destroyed legion be assimilated by one of the legions who destroyed their own? That´s nonsense. Also, Astartes are considered to be immortal by the time of the Heresy, so lots of Ultramarine Veterans had probably fought on the Liberation Wars in Terra and still be alive and kicking.

 

Dont know if it has been suggested before but is it fact or not whether any fighting at all took place?

 

All the legions were created and were then to be lead by their Primarch as a legion in their own right. Maybe when they encountered the Primarchs of these two legions something was wrong. Maybe they mutated or just did not take to the Emperor as their "Father". It could just be they rebelled at point of meeting the Emperor and were killed. Thus the two legions with no Primarch were assimilated into other Legions.

 

Possible? Yes, no?

[Legatus]

Also, Astartes are considered to be immortal by the time of the Heresy

They were though to possibly be immortal, for the simple reason that only under 200 years had passed since the creation of teh Space marines and they can easily get 400-500 years old. So by that time no Marine had reached the end of his natural life span yet.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

How could Astartes from a destroyed legion be assimilated by one of the legions who destroyed their own? That´s nonsense. Also, Astartes are considered to be immortal by the time of the Heresy, so lots of Ultramarine Veterans had probably fought on the Liberation Wars in Terra and still be alive and kicking.

 

Dont know if it has been suggested before but is it fact or not whether any fighting at all took place?

 

All the legions were created and were then to be lead by their Primarch as a legion in their own right. Maybe when they encountered the Primarchs of these two legions something was wrong. Maybe they mutated or just did not take to the Emperor as their "Father". It could just be they rebelled at point of meeting the Emperor and were killed. Thus the two legions with no Primarch were assimilated into other Legions.

 

Possible? Yes, no?

 

I was thinking that, we assume every Primarch just waltzed into the Emperor's open arms and accepted him. We know Angron wasn't happy about joining the Imperium but he was talked around.

 

What if the 2 lost Primarchs decided they didn't want to join Daddy's club? Or decided later on in the crusade that the Emperor was wrong?

[lee265]

All the legions Participated in the great crusuade lead by there primarch. Legions 2 and 11 were deleted pre heresy but post founding and for seperate reasons. It could be they felt like Angron and took there time to act but the primarchs fought for at least a while at the head of there legions before they and their legions were expunged.

[BearersOfSalvation]

They were though to possibly be immortal, for the simple reason that only under 200 years had passed since the creation of teh Space marines and they can easily get 400-500 years old. So by that time no Marine had reached the end of his natural life span yet.

 

It's entirely possible that Heresy-era marines were effectively immortal, but that gene-seed degradation has reduced it for current marines. We know that different chapters have wildly different lifespans (some BAs over 900 years old), which to me supports the idea that old age in marines came about from later changes in gene-seed instead of as part of the 'base design'. That fits in better with the general backsliding theme in the Imperium to me.

[augustmanifesto]

How could Astartes from a destroyed legion be assimilated by one of the legions who destroyed their own? That´s nonsense. Also, Astartes are considered to be immortal by the time of the Heresy, so lots of Ultramarine Veterans had probably fought on the Liberation Wars in Terra and still be alive and kicking.

 

thats a good point, I hadn't thought of that. Also, now that I think about it, the ultramarines woiuld never have done something so cool. I blame the Imperial Fists!

 

I cringe every time someone talks about that as if that was actually what had happened.

 

well that's what magnus and logar think. you think they're wrong, I take it? interesting...say more!

[Legatus]

well that's what magnus and logar think. you think they're wrong, I take it? interesting...say more!

The author was so nice as to respond to that. In short, sometimes the Black Library authors have a little bit of fun and throw in some wild rumours or conspiracy theories. For example, the line in "Angels of Darkness" where Astelan proposes that Jonson had not been participating in the defense of Terra because he was waiting to see who would win was something that Gav Thorpe came up with spontaneously while writing that scene. He never intended to actually retcon the Dark Angels' background, which I believe states how furious Jonson was at Russ for slowing down their journey to earth by attacking forgeworlds on the way. Similarly, sometimes the authors throw in little bits about the two lost Legtion, but never with any specific intention to actually reveal their fate, just to tease the readers some more.

 

 

It's entirely possible that Heresy-era marines were effectively immortal, but that gene-seed degradation has reduced it for current marines. We know that different chapters have wildly different lifespans (some BAs over 900 years old), which to me supports the idea that old age in marines came about from later changes in gene-seed instead of as part of the 'base design'. That fits in better with the general backsliding theme in the Imperium to me.

Well, according to the Index Astartes Ultramarines their gene-seed is retty much as pure today as it was 10,000 years ago. Also, the increased life-span of the Blood Angels is attributes specifically to their genetic flaw.

[augustmanifesto]

legatus, I see him referring to whether or not the ultramarines were so large beacuse they subsumed the remainder of one of the Lost Chapters (and not coming down either way, mind you, rather contesting that the belief of the Word Bearers on this is a possibility, not fact) . This is an awesome thing to share, thank you.

 

But also at issue in my previous post was whether or not Logar and Magnus believed the Emperor destroyed two other chapters and considered destroying or otherwise disbanding the Word Bearers, which Magnus testifies there were discussions about.

 

So you disagree with the ultramarines bit but agree with the second bit, i take it?

[Legatus]

I really have no clue one way or the other what might have happened to the two lost Legions, and I don't think GW will ever reveal it. Did they betray the emperor and were thus destroyed? I somehow doubt that, since nine other Legions betrayed the Emperor and records of them still exist. But on the other hand that could be because they are still around and a threat to the Imperium, so it would be unwise not to somehow document the encounters with them.

[augustmanifesto]

the question more had to do with the emperor considering destroying or otherwise disbanding the Word Bearers, as revealed by Magnus in the book :P