Just played my 46th draigo wing game

[Zagman]

Just looking at your list Zagman and i highly recomend getting rid of the falcons. Halberds are MUCH better especially since falcons are only +1 attack. Try and fit as many halberds in as possible. Also MC a few weapons to help with wound allocations.

 

Normally the halberd is superior to falchions, especially on Purifiers and GKT. But, thanks to multiple wounds and wound allocation the falchions have a place on Paladins. The additional attacks are critical in any combat that isn't done in the first round, or when charged. There are only a very few ID attacks that are coming at I5 or even I4, and most of those attacks come from walkers where halberds are useless anyways. Thanks to multiple wounds and wound allocation Paladins are able to survive even I4/I5 power weapon attacks. You must also factor in that those I4/I5 Power weapon attack are usually sergeants or other hidden models; Paladins rarely have the numbers required to kill the opposing squad to that point either at I6 and the capabilities to survive to I4 without losing combat effectiveness. The only time Halberds would really be a benefit for Paladins are against a select few opponents such as incubi, assaulting power weapon DC, etc and even then, Paladins have the resiliency to survive till I4. IMO Paladins are the GK unit which benefits least from halberds though MC halberds on those two models is likely the best points efficient option. The reason I'm not taking MC halberds is that I like the greater diversity on the squad, from an aesthetics stand point since I modeled my falchions using the regular swords, converting some to be left handed. The end result was some very awesome looking Falchion Paladins.

 

Unlike Purifiers and to a lesser extend GKT, halberds aren't an auto include on Paladins.

 

As far as MCing for would allocation, the squads are meant to be combat squadded in most scenarios which yields multiple squads of 5 unique models. On the occasions that I keep them in 10 man units, I still can take advantage of wound allocation to a large degree coupled with Driago's presence, though not fully, but I also don't have to worry about keeping them straight or finding the 50pts necessary to MC enough models to take advantage of full wound allocation. Its just being practical.

[thade]

Halberds are MUCH better especially since falcons are only +1 attack.

There's one thing people fail to consider with Falchions, and that is a very simple unit: Purifiers with all Falchions and a Librarian with Quickening. All of those I10 FW attacks are going to ruin somebody's day.

 

It has no place in a Draigowing, really. ;) But in general they are not useless.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Lack of psycannon's is annoying. I use psilancers with a different barrel for my psycannon's...

 

IMO the psilencer model looks way cooler than the new psycannon.

[bl00d bath76]

I completely disagree with this point here. You can still make every model different for wound allocation by MC storm bolters and hablerds which is the same point cost or a bit less so that is irrelevant. Also the majority of opponents will be I 4 so halberds are very usefull here and make your squad survive longer. The more wounds you can get at I 6 the fewer wounds you take in return and therefore you are more likely to win the combat. Yes paladins are more resiliant but power weapons will lay out the hurt on the unit and cause you to lose wounds whereas if you had taken halberds this could of been averted. Futhermore halberds are cheaper and do a supperior job to falcons. Also i wouldn't even take falcons if they had been FAQed as +2 attacks because striking first is key. Looking at your squads you are hitting mostly at I 4 which means characters and just basic infantry have time to strike and wear you down. I will use an example and mathammer to illistrate this point:

 

5 paladins =320

Halberd

MC halberd

psycannon w halberd

psycannon w hammer

sword

 

Charging a unit of 8 assault terminators

 

8 terminators =320

lightning claw x8

 

halberds strike first killing approx 2.666 which we will take as 3

Sword kills 0.8888 which we will count as 1

terminators strike back and kill 3.75 which we will count as 4. No models will die as wound allocation spreads this out.

hammer kills 1.1111 which we will assume as 1

Next phase halberds kills 1.777 which we will assume as 2.

terminator strikes back illing 1 and will be finished of by the remaining paladins.

 

Overall combat is finished in a game turn which is good and the paladins lose 5 wounds which should be spread out.

 

Now lets replace the halberds with falcons

 

falcons kill 3.5555 which we will assume as 4

terminators cause 6 wounds in return.

Sword kills 0.8888 which will count as 1.

Hammer kills 1.1111 which we assume as 1

assume the sword is dead and the rest are on one wound each.

Falcons will kill the rest of the squad.

Terminators will kill 1.5 which we will assume as 2

 

Overall combat is finished in the same length of time with the paladins losing 8 wounds.

 

So because of this falcons are NEVER worth it against I 4, 5, 6. They are better against I1, 2, 3, 7 ,8 ,9 ,10 enemies. However these are much less common with the majority of opponents being I 4. Futhermore most characters who can cause damage to your paladins are I 5. Also you have to note that you are sacrificing a lot if you are going to use falcons shown by this example. There is a big difference and you can lose the combat because of it. Also you are only risking this for a few extra attacks which will kill at max 1 or 2 extra guys.

 

What you have to question yourself is whether it is worth it to kill an extra guy in return for at LEAST 1 paladin dieing, and 1 paladin is a lot.

 

Futhermore they are 5 points extra. These points can be better spent on MC weapons to help with wound allocation.

 

To conclude:

I would recomend you to NEVER take falcons. Halberds are supperior in practicly every situation and are more useful against a wider range of armies. For this reason i would recomend removing the falcons with halberds.

[Zagman]

I'll counter your "example" with my own. I use the term loosely, because your example is one of the enemies where halberds would clearly be superior, which I stated.

 

How about 5 paladins, all halberds vs THSS and falchions vs THSS.

 

THSS on the charge

10 halberd swings, 6.66 hits, 4.4 wounds(Assuming Hammerhand was successful), 1.5 dead THSS Termies

10.5 ID swings back at you, 5.25 hits, 4.4 wounds, 3 dead paladins.

4 swings, 2.66 hits, 1.8 wounds, .5 dead THSS

6 ID swings, 4 hits, Squad wiped.

 

5 Dead paladins, 2 Dead THSS

 

15 Falchion swings, 2.2 dead THSS

9 ID swings, 2.5 dead paladins

7.5 Falchion Swings 1.1 Dead THSS

4 ID swings, 1.1 dead Paladins

.66 dead THSS

Turns into a coin flip for who survives, the last THSS or the Last Paladins.

 

Coinflip who will have a model survive, Falchion Paladin or a single THSS

 

If the Paladins charge

Halberds 2.2 dead THSS

1.5 dead Paladins

1 Dead THSS

1 Dead Paladin

.7 Dead THSS....

 

Usually 1, maybe 2 Halberd Paladins Survive

 

Falchions 3 Dead THSS

1 Dead paladin

1.8 dead THSS

 

More times than not, 4 Falchion Paladins Survive.

 

 

See, when I tailor an example to prove my point, it works pretty well too. And using complex units, and gross rounding like that is hugely prone to error. A simple example proves a point better.

 

Remember, my units still have one halberd for every 5 models, which I do use to try and snipe I5 characters, and does widdle the attacking unit down a bit first. I just don't have as many.

 

Halberds are extremely important on models whose combat effectiveness is greatly reduced by taking a wound. Paladins can absorb wounds without reducing combat effectiveness, this reduces the importance of I6. Added attacks from falchions are more valuable and more viable on Paladins when compared to GKT, and Purifiers.

 

Don't forget, I also stated that MCed Halberds are the best points equivalent investment. Falchions have their place on paladins, are they the "best investment", no, it is by no means a "Halberds only" club like with purifiers. Especially when you say silly things like "mastercrafting stormbolters to create unique models", a thoroughly terrible idea, Falchions become a viable alternative.

 

Oh, and it is spelledFALCHIONS, not FALCONS

[bl00d bath76]

I did not mean to be snide in any way and if i did sound like i was i appoligse.

 

Something i felt i should have mentioned is that i was using that example to prove that against I4, 5, 6 Falchions are always superior, not that halberds are always better in every case. I did not 'tailor' my example to favour my point. I will happily use any example as long as they are I4.

 

You used the example against I1 which as i stated above falcons would be better, this is common sence and there is no need for an example, hence why i didn't include one but included an example against an I4 opponent of the same point cost.

 

If you know you are more likely to be facing these Initative types then go for that point investment, for example against deathwing. However from a competitive standpoint halberds are better as I4, 5 and 6 is much more common. It also costs less.

 

I feel they may be usefull if tailoring lists against certain opponents such as if you know you will be facing deathwing however i think you should never tailor lists. But thats my own opinion.

 

Also doing a 'silly thing' by Mastercrafting the storm bolter is not silly because i would rather, for the same point cost, have halberds and a re-roll to hit can kill an extra marine on a good day.

 

And also there is no need to emphasise my mispelling of Falchions. I do not keep a copy of the codex and no one has ever pointed it out to me. Thank you for correcting me just be a bit courteous please. I never attacked you but was just contributing to the debate putting my point forward thoroughly using capitals to emphasise this point of view.

[Daedalus Templarius]

So I did a 2v2 last night from like, 10pm to 3am, 2000pts per player 4000 per side.

 

The amount of pain put out by a 10 man squad of paladins with 4 psycannons and psybolts, is absolutely staggering. My opponents were totally unprepared. Literally everything I fired at disappeared into a fine pink mist (although it might be a green mist since they were mostly 'nids, other player was Tau who got chewed apart by my psyrifle dread). One turn of fire, tervigon dead, one turn of fire, 20 strong genestealer squad wiped, it was a massacre of epic proportions. And because my units are all so ridiculously tough, the tau and 'nid barely ever fired a shot at me, opting to pour their shots into my eldar teammate. Rerolling 1s on wounds from The Grand Strategy is pretty amazing, especially when you are putting out a ton of wounds on 2s at the same time.

 

I am pretty sold on the 10 man squad of paladins, bringing the death and also able to grab objectives. The 2nd strike squad did a good job hunkering down on an objective blazing a psycannon and stormbolters. Enjoying my changes to my list quite a bit :D

[ValourousHeart]

I've played 1k, 1.5k, 2k, and 2.5k with the list so far and am 16-1-2 with it so far.

...

Here is my 2.5k list for reference:

...

At 2k, I simple lose the librarian, 5 paladins, and the HI because a Greatsword.

 

 

@ Zagman,

 

Would you mind posting what you field at 1k and 1.5k.

 

Thanks.

[nurglez]

Had 2 games today, 1 vs imperial guard at 2k points, the other at 1500 points vs ork kan wall. I won both :P Imperial guard would have won if the game ended on the 5th turn thanks to a flat out vendetta, but the game went on and it got blown from the sky. Vs ork's We played a battle mission one, with different kill points, hq is worth 3, troops are 1 and all other choices are 2, My force was 7 kill points, while his was around 14. he conceded on the 5th turn when I had 11 kill points and he had none (re rolling to wound rolls of 1 + heavy incinerator vs orks is nasty, killed 12 orks each time I fired my DK).

 

The eversor assassin still did nothing, I'm thinking if i can find 5 points from somewhere I can replace him with a psyfle dread, though having 1 armoured vehicle in my force will make him a target, if I reserve him and bring him on later he could do some nice damage...

[nurglez]

And had another 2 games today, both at 2000 points, and both vs codex daemons...

 

My list is somewhere in this thread, but basically Draigo, libby, 15 pallies, eversor and 2 dk's (1 with teleporter).

His list was great unclean one, herald of khorne on jugger, blue scribes, 2x4 flamers, 4 blood crushers, 2x10 bloodletters, 2x11 plague bearers and 2 soul grinders.

 

First game was kill points, spearhead. I won the roll and got him to go first. (so 2 rolls in my favour so far, kill point games which I'm great at and choosing to go second which I almost always do). His preferred wave didn't come in, and that sums up the rest of the game. His blood crushers and khorne herald came in and mishapped (it was so close that after he rolled destroyed for them I let him place them), and then I killed them with shooting... Eversor assassin didn't do much and was the first of 3 kill points I conceded, The game ended on the 7th turn with me on 11 kill points and him on 3...

 

Second game was seize ground, 4 objectives pitched battle, He won the roll and made me go first. both his soul grinders went down easy, but by the end of the game I had 1 objective and he had 3, fail for me and my second loss out of 15 games, but I did make a few silly choices and a mistake or 2(lets see if draigo can solo a great unclean one, lets forgot about casting hammerhand in combat with plague bearers, lets forget to summon back a scoring dreadnight instead of letting him get charged and killed...).

 

The eversor is being replaced for sure, ok maybe I charged him off instead of supporting a unit, and maybe I should have made him scoring and left him in reserve to capture a home objective, and maybe it was because all daemons have invulnerable saves, but he failed to kill much and then died. I shall replace him with a psyfle dread shortly, and see if it does any better.

 

I also seem to do badly when I dont have my nice uber killy deathstar squad (10 pallies+draigo), when I combat squad they just dont seem to do as well, though at least they can shoot 2 targets...

 

Oh and just because being grey knight's gives you prefered enemy for daemons, it is still much much better to shoot khorne daemons then get charged by them (khorne heralds with collar of khorne= annoying to kill in close combat unless you have dark excommunication).

[Daedalus Templarius]

So next game I am rolling out with Draigo, Lib, 10man paladin; combat squad 4MCPsycannons, 5 paladins with 2MCPsycannons, all mounted in LRs. 1LRC, 1LRR, and 1LR, at 2250pts.

 

Should be interesting, heh.

[nurglez]

Does sound interesting heh. let us know how it goes.

 

I had 3 more games today, both vs skavenids again (similar list to the ones I've played before), and I won 2 of them!

 

First game was capture and control, dawn of war. It ended with my 10 man squad severely depleted (down to 6-7 guys and quite a few wounded) on the enemy objective, and a hive tyrant and some shrikes on mine, nothing else survived the game.

Second game was seize ground, 3 objectives pitched battle. He conceded by turn 3-4, as I had killed his sterile tervigon, wiped out 1 of his genestealer squads and was about to take out the other, while he had failed to hurt pretty much anything due to terrible luck, so he finished early so we could play a mirror match.

 

Third game I let him control the mighty pallies, while I used the skavenids (first time ever using tyranids heh). The poor tyranids lost, but it was pretty close for my first game with them, Pallies are hard, wounded with 20 shots on a 5 man squad and they just shrugged it off, taking 2 wounds. I took the dreadknight out as my opponent made the same mistake I did when I first used it (sending it off alone, expecting it to take on anything). I hope I learnt a lot from fighting my own army, it was a real challenge :)

[Lord Sirrion]

Gotta ask this question, been bugging me all thread. What exactly are skavenids? I've played nids for a long time now and never heard that term.

[Something Wycked]

lol he's made an army of Nids out of Skaven models- Skavenids.

[nurglez]

Indeed heh, He liked the new skaven models, but didn't want to play fantasy, so the skavenids were born :huh:

[Daedalus Templarius]

Yea, may not take 3 landraiders tonite... too many railguns and brightlances in my friends lists I think for them to really be effective. May just roll with my regular footslogging paladins + dreadknights and Psyrifle dreads.

 

Edit: did some labbing, we'll see how it goes I guess

 

Will be reserving if I don't get first move, that's for sure!

[Lord Sirrion]

Skavenids-very silly. :P

[nurglez]

If you say so, but he has taken pride in it, his mycetic spores are packing crates with a big hole nibbled out of it, his hive tyrant is a doom wheel thingy, and his tervigon is a screaming bell, summoning in the little fellows. He tries to ensure that all models are the right size/foot print, and its a pleasure to play against :D

[Lord Sirrion]

Sorry, I didn't mean silly=bad. Sillyness is awesome!

[nurglez]

Ah, thats ok then :)

[Something Wycked]

With how much thought and effort has gone into making that army work, I'd love to play against it. :cuss

 

Its too bad we're across the pond from each other ;)

[Daedalus Templarius]

Well we(GK and Eldar) won our capture and control game vs Nids and Tau, Draigo added a Swarmlord head to his ever burgeoning belt, and the Landraiders were essential for shuffling my 3 squads of Paladins around the board. Game ended with me having lost 3 paladins ^_^ and 3 wounds on Draigo.

[nurglez]

So you did end up using landraiders then :P

 

I still cant make the choice to use landraider's in a terminator heavy force, might just be my playing style, but I'd much rather have boots on the field then a landraider. Was the same with my renegade logan wing. If I play 2500 points I might fit in a landraider and a storm raven, but I rarely play that size game...

[Daedalus Templarius]

Well now they have said that 2250 per person is too much :P so next game I certainly won't be fitting 3 LRs. Surprisingly they never even took any damage for the whole game!

 

If we drop back down to like 1500... it should be interesting.

[nurglez]

so what sort of list do you use at 1500? footslogging or a landraider or 2?