Making Noise Marines Scream

[Bat33.1]

 

 

 

 - I don't want to give up on the Combat Drugs (at least not as long as i'm not convinced that they don't make much of a difference in how the army feels to play)

your runing too slow HQ and not HQ centric builds to use combat drugs to full effect.

 

...what? I haven't posted any build so far so how would you know what i may think about running?

 

 

Hi sfPanzer, you don't know the jeske very well do you? He is like the Yoda of the CSM boards he just knows, no idea how but he does ;)

[Panzer]

- I don't want to give up on the Combat Drugs (at least not as long as i'm not convinced that they don't make much of a difference in how the army feels to play)

your runing too slow HQ and not HQ centric builds to use combat drugs to full effect.

...what? I haven't posted any build so far so how would you know what i may think about running?

Hi sfPanzer, you don't know the jeske very well do you? He is like the Yoda of the CSM boards he just knows, no idea how but he does

Nope I don't. But apart from his bad english I don't see much of a resemblance since he was dead wrong with that. All my lists so far have been with a bunch of mobile HQ. ;)

[the jeske]

Well if your not geting  a bang out of your HQs or their melee upgrades, three things can happen. Either the HQs are too slow to reach melee, your using the HQ the wrong way, the opposing army is much better then you and the upgrades are not doing a difference. If the last one happens you shouldn't be doing melee anyway, and it is easy to notice, so the chance that this is happening [after so many weeks after the book] is slim. The second is something I try not to assume about other people without seeing them play or at least seeing their list. So the only logical explanation to melee units not making use out of melee upgrades is that the army is too slow.

[Panzer]

Well if your not geting  a bang out of your HQs or their melee upgrades, three things can happen. Either the HQs are too slow to reach melee, your using the HQ the wrong way, the opposing army is much better then you and the upgrades are not doing a difference. If the last one happens you shouldn't be doing melee anyway, and it is easy to notice, so the chance that this is happening [after so many weeks after the book] is slim. The second is something I try not to assume about other people without seeing them play or at least seeing their list. So the only logical explanation to melee units not making use out of melee upgrades is that the army is too slow.

I never said I don't get a bang out of my HQ. Like at all. I asked questions and asked for experiences and opinions.

The added note about the effeciency of the Combat Drug was just a mere condition for them being an important part in my theory crafting at all. If they don't make any worthwhile difference (neither power-wise nor feel-wise) i can just skip the whole Rapture Battalion and go with a CAD + Kakophoni formation.

 

I hope that was clear enough now.

 

 

Edit: I guess my question boils down to: is the Rapture Battalion worth it over a combination of CAD+Kakophoni? Not just competetive-wise but also feel-wise. I know the random stat bonus is not overwhelming and on ranged guys not even particulalry good for the most part however if it feels good to play that would already be enough for me (even tho it is REALLY restrictive to use over a CAD considering how expensive CSM formations are).

[the jeske]

 

Well if your not geting  a bang out of your HQs or their melee upgrades, three things can happen. Either the HQs are too slow to reach melee, your using the HQ the wrong way, the opposing army is much better then you and the upgrades are not doing a difference. If the last one happens you shouldn't be doing melee anyway, and it is easy to notice, so the chance that this is happening [after so many weeks after the book] is slim. The second is something I try not to assume about other people without seeing them play or at least seeing their list. So the only logical explanation to melee units not making use out of melee upgrades is that the army is too slow.

I never said I don't get a bang out of my HQ. Like at all. I asked questions and asked for experiences and opinions.

The added note about the effeciency of the Combat Drug was just a mere condition for them being an important part in my theory crafting at all. If they don't make any worthwhile difference (neither power-wise nor feel-wise) i can just skip the whole Rapture Battalion and go with a CAD + Kakophoni formation.

 

I hope that was clear enough now.

 

 

Edit: I guess my question boils down to: is the Rapture Battalion worth it over a combination of CAD+Kakophoni? Not just competetive-wise but also feel-wise. I know the random stat bonus is not overwhelming and on ranged guys not even particulalry good for the most part however if it feels good to play that would already be enough for me (even tho it is REALLY restrictive to use over a CAD considering how expensive CSM formations are).

 

Ok then I do not understand the list at all. if your not runing the EC legion list to get cheap syren and combat drugs, doing drive by shoting. Then why are you runing the EC at all. The noise marine formation of the non syren kind cost too much as shoting units, and do not have enough fire power to stop horde/msu style armies we see dominating 7th ed.   Maybe vs something like orcs or IG, but those hardly are the armies to beat right now.

[Panzer]

 

 

Well if your not geting  a bang out of your HQs or their melee upgrades, three things can happen. Either the HQs are too slow to reach melee, your using the HQ the wrong way, the opposing army is much better then you and the upgrades are not doing a difference. If the last one happens you shouldn't be doing melee anyway, and it is easy to notice, so the chance that this is happening [after so many weeks after the book] is slim. The second is something I try not to assume about other people without seeing them play or at least seeing their list. So the only logical explanation to melee units not making use out of melee upgrades is that the army is too slow.

I never said I don't get a bang out of my HQ. Like at all. I asked questions and asked for experiences and opinions.

The added note about the effeciency of the Combat Drug was just a mere condition for them being an important part in my theory crafting at all. If they don't make any worthwhile difference (neither power-wise nor feel-wise) i can just skip the whole Rapture Battalion and go with a CAD + Kakophoni formation.

 

I hope that was clear enough now.

 

 

Edit: I guess my question boils down to: is the Rapture Battalion worth it over a combination of CAD+Kakophoni? Not just competetive-wise but also feel-wise. I know the random stat bonus is not overwhelming and on ranged guys not even particulalry good for the most part however if it feels good to play that would already be enough for me (even tho it is REALLY restrictive to use over a CAD considering how expensive CSM formations are).

 

Ok then I do not understand the list at all. if your not runing the EC legion list to get cheap syren and combat drugs, doing drive by shoting. Then why are you runing the EC at all. The noise marine formation of the non syren kind cost too much as shoting units, and do not have enough fire power to stop horde/msu style armies we see dominating 7th ed.   Maybe vs something like orcs or IG, but those hardly are the armies to beat right now.

 

What list? I never posted any specifc list. You sure you aren't confusing me with someone else?

And as to why i'm running EC? I think it should be pretty obvious by now that i'm not necessarily interested in the most competetive CSM list here...

 

If I wanted to play an army consisting of AP3 template drive bys I'd play the Blood Angel Lucifer Tank Force formation. Baal Preds are way cheaper than 5 Noise Marines + Doom Siren in a Rhino and more durable as well.

 

Sorry to tell you Jeske but you keep missing the point of my posts and I really don't know how I am supposed to make it more clear to you.

[Teetengee]

@ Jeske and sfPanzer
It might be a translation problem. Please correct me if I am wrong, but sfPanzer, you were talking about the combat drugs detachment bonus and Jeske, you were talking about the combat drugs relic, correct?

[Panzer]

@ Jeske and sfPanzer

It might be a translation problem. Please correct me if I am wrong, but sfPanzer, you were talking about the combat drugs detachment bonus and Jeske, you were talking about the combat drugs relic, correct?

You're right about my part.

[Xenith]

From Jeskes point of view, there are only one or two specific builds you can use with each army. That means if you are playing noise marines, then you are using certain optimised units, which men's Jeskes knows exactly what's in your army.

 

It works in his meta.

[Panzer]

From Jeskes point of view, there are only one or two specific builds you can use with each army. That means if you are playing noise marines, then you are using certain optimised units, which men's Jeskes knows exactly what's in your army.

It works in his meta.

Too bad not everyone on this forum is part of his meta tho.

Anyway seems nobody knows the answer whether Combat Drugs are worth taking a Rapture Batallion over a simple CAD or not. Guess i'll have to test it out myself then but that might take a while.

[Elazar The Glorified]

I like the combat drugs but I don't think they alone justify the Rapture Batallion - but they do justify the 33pts of the aux formation if you were running one of the Kakophoni or Warband formation anyway...

[WarriorFish]

The Aux choices are a bit lacking, but I do find it funny you can just take a spawn which helps keep costs down as you want/have to spend most of your points on the main. I am pondering the Heldrakes as an alternative though. I also agree that while the combat drugs are a really nice bonus you shouldn't be building lists around them directly. I'm looking at the Warband as a core, as that will get you a lot of troops that will benefit from the drugs.

[SoulGlaive]

I think it was a missed opportunity by GW not adding demon options to the detachments somehow, ala the aux slot possibly. It would have allowed each god to field a quazi Demonkin force while still leaving khorne's blood power unique.

I know that allies are an option but with the limitations on sources at most events it can cause issues when attempting to theme a list.

 

Why dont each of the gods disciplines allow for demon summoning? Granted there is a "generic" discipline dedicated to it but i don't know it just seems weird that while Tzeetch can, Nurgle and Slannesh cannot. Maybe its just me?

 

 

While Im on a wish listing kick, i really think Emperors Children Sorcerers should be able to use Psychic Shriek as a primaris regardless ... you know because METAL!

[Panzer]

I think the main problem is that the Combat Drugs only really make sense on melee guys so you pretty much have to decide between Noise Marines or the Warband....unless you want to take the TAF or Raptor Talon Formation which costs like 600p+ so you can't really take anything else beside it anymore.

Could have easily avoided by replacing the Chaos Marines in the Warband with Noise Marines or by giving proper formations that don't cost the world because you have to take 3 units minimum + Lord....but that's CSM for you I guess.

[hushrong]

I think combat drugs can be a nice bonus in most cases. I hope to roll for a either BS or T for my list because better shooting is never terrible nor is being slightly tougher. 

[Teetengee]

The Aux choices are a bit lacking, but I do find it funny you can just take a spawn which helps keep costs down as you want/have to spend most of your points on the main. I am pondering the Heldrakes as an alternative though. I also agree that while the combat drugs are a really nice bonus you shouldn't be building lists around them directly. I'm looking at the Warband as a core, as that will get you a lot of troops that will benefit from the drugs.

2x Heldrake, even with the nerf, probably won't hurt. That being said, noise marine lists probably get the least benefit from them, as AP3 ignores cover isn't something they really have trouble with.

[WarriorFish]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking but I wanted to have a realistic Auxiliary option other than a spawn to tick the box :confused:

[Teetengee]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking but I wanted to have a realistic Auxiliary option other than a spawn to tick the box

I definitely think they are usable for that. You might want to consider some preds though instead. AP2 is a bit harder for noise marines and slaanesh in general to come by, and lascannons might play well into that strategy. Still might be too costly though points wise to really be worth it.

[FallenSoldiers]

My one game with combat drugs so far was an 1850 game.  I took a warband as well as a min kalophoni and the Intoxicating Elixir.  I got a 3 for my roll so I wound up with +1 BS, S, and I.  While the I didn't really help much, being BS5 was a big bonus I think.  I played SW so the +1S in CQC was nice to have too.

 

I'm playing a 1500 pt game tonight, again using the Rapture Battalion and again using intoxicating elixir.  I'll post up tomorrow and give a brief recap of how I felt it went. 

[heptus]

Eh, I may be able to give you some inspirations from today's two games. Both were 1500 pts and I used the same battalion list of:

- Chaos Warband: bike PF lord, bodyguard bikes, melta bikes, csm/csm/chosen /w rhinos, and AC havoc (all units were minimum in number cause I like MSU)

- Kakophoni: steed lord (going with the melta bikes), and 3 NMs (min number too)

- Spawn (who always earns back his point!)

The first game was against the alliance of astra militarum tanks and two assassins. All my sonic weapons erased his infantries while two units of bikes blew up the tanks. My opponent surrendered at the bottom of T4. CD was WS+1, pretty meaningless.

The second game was against the Iron Hands deathstar army where their bike captain got 2+/3++/3+++. It was a miserable for my opponent, however, cause we took Contact & Lost mission. He brought very small number of units owing to the expensive (~500 pts) deathstar, whereas I got plenty OS-MSUs. T1 I flat-out all my rhinos to hold 5 of 6 objectives and my opponent surrendered at the bottom of T3 cause all of his units except for the deathstar were eliminated. CD was A+1, not bad for my bike teams, especially for PF warlord.

Back to the issue, I'm not sure combat drugs are THAT good. However, two Fearless/OS/I5 CSMs are never tax for me, and thus I'll always pick the battalion over CAD. It's just my style tho

EDIT: The photo has been attached. Also, I'd like to mention that we usually have a casual game. My list could be easily crushed by a tourney-level competitive army, I guess?

[Zectz]

Has anyone had any experience using the Soulsnare Lash and/or the Blissgiver?

[FallenSoldiers]

How did the PF lord do?  I've been trying to make use of I5 by sticking to power swords or things that strike at initiative.

 

What did you run on the NM?  

[Panzer]

My one game with combat drugs so far was an 1850 game. I took a warband as well as a min kalophoni and the Intoxicating Elixir. I got a 3 for my roll so I wound up with +1 BS, S, and I. While the I didn't really help much, being BS5 was a big bonus I think. I played SW so the +1S in CQC was nice to have too.

I'm playing a 1500 pt game tonight, again using the Rapture Battalion and again using intoxicating elixir. I'll post up tomorrow and give a brief recap of how I felt it went.

Sorry that doesn't sound quite right. You roll once on the Combat Drugs table for your whole Rapture Battalion and then d3 additional times just for that one character. Not d3 times in total for your whole Rapture Battalion.

Eh, I may be able to give you some inspirations from today's two games. Both were 1500 pts and I used the same battalion list of:

- Chaos Warband: bike PF lord, bodyguard bikes, melta bikes, csm/csm/chosen /w rhinos, and AC havoc (all units were minimum in number cause I like MSU)

- Kakophoni: steed lord (going with the melta bikes), and 3 NMs (min number too)

- Spawn (who always earns back his point!)

The first game was against the alliance of astra militarum tanks and two assassins. All my sonic weapons erased his infantries while two units of bikes blew up the tanks. My opponent surrendered at the bottom of T4. CD was WS+1, pretty meaningless.

The second game was against the Iron Hands deathstar army where their bike captain got 2+/3++/3+++. It was a miserable for my opponent, however, cause we took Contact & Lost mission. He brought very small number of units owing to the expensive (~500 pts) deathstar, whereas I got plenty OS-MSUs. T1 I flat-out all my rhinos to hold 5 of 6 objectives and my opponent surrendered at the bottom of T3 cause all of his units except for the deathstar were eliminated. CD was A+1, not bad for my bike teams, especially for PF warlord.

Back to the issue, I'm not sure combat drugs are THAT good. However, two Fearless/OS/I5 CSMs are never tax for me, and thus I'll always pick the battalion over CAD. It's just my style tho

EDIT: The photo has been attached. Also, I'd like to mention that we usually have a casual game. My list could be easily crushed by a tourney-level competitive army, I guess?

Two interesting games where the Combat Drugs didn't do much mainly because one was decided by shooting and the other by the szenario/lists. Reports like those help a lot to get a feeling for it, thanks. :)

By the way you'd get two Fearless/OS/I5 CSMs in a Emperors Children CAD as well, that alone is no argument for the Warband....the OS Chosen and Bikes however would be I guess. ;)

[WarriorFish]

Are bikes a hugely superior choice to something like Raptors for the FA choice on the Warband? Or are they workable enough?

[Panzer]

Are bikes a hugely superior choice to something like Raptors for the FA choice on the Warband? Or are they workable enough?

Short answer: yes

 

Long answer: Bikes have everything Raptors (Assault Marines for loyalists) have plus some for only 15p more.

 - Both move just as far (when using the Jump Pack)

 - Both have pretty much the same equipment options

 

 - Bikes have T5

 - Bikes have Hammer of Wrath even if they moved 12" in the movement phase

 - Bikes can Jink (you can Jink against Overwatch even)

 

 - Jump Infantry can jump over terrain.

 - Jump Infantry can re-roll charge distance and get Hammer of Wrath if they didn't move 12" in the movementphase (so only 6" like any other Infantry and can't jump over terrain this way)

 

So yeah in a Warband or CAD or similar Bikes are superior to Raptors. However there is the Raptor Talon formation which is kinda okay I guess but no real Biker formation.

The difference between those two units is there and you'll notice it ingame. Especially if you have FnP on them since Bikes still get it against S8-9.