Making Noise Marines Scream

[arkagl]

For my army what I found effective is if your going to take all noise marines to make 2 different types of squads. First one is to get your opponents objectives and the other is to hold your own objective. Here's what I came up with.

 

To get an objective - Reasoning: your prob going to assault with this unit so Bolters and Sonic Blasters are out of the question. The Blastmaster has assault ability and allows you to move and shoot and assault and shoot. The Champion has an ap3 flamer which is pretty effective especially when you get to your opponent's objective you can hold it and overwatch.

6-8 Noise Marines

Blastmaster

the rest - CCW and Bolt Pistol

Champion - LC and Doom Siren

Rhino

 

To hold an objective - Reasoning: their whole point is to sit on an objective so they need to fire as much as they can at an opponent's units as they are coming to claim yours. Plus overwatch allows you to shoot your Salvo 3 directly at them giving your heavy fire even at only hitting on 6s. Your Blastmaster can shoot on overwatch with assault frequency and shoot your opponent as the come to you from further away.

5-7 Noise Marines

Blast Master

the rest - Sonic Blasters

Champion - LC

[Brother Ambroz]

Nettes are still far more effective to take an objective than NM arkangl. Nettes are faster and far more killy in CC, albeit more fragile as well but if you're careful they should be alright. NM are usually better off as a 5 man BM unit. Bonzi's experimented with a CC equipped squad and usually has better results with the nettes. Right?

 

Anyways, since these types of armies usually suffer a bit against 2+ saves, has anyone thought of including a unit of havocs/chosen with PGs? Might help fill that gap.

[arkagl]

I take 3 squads of havocs 1 with 4 las and 2 with 4 autocannons each. If it comes down to I can shoot all my las at termis and what ever if needed.

[Bonzi]

For my army what I found effective is if your going to take all noise marines to make 2 different types of squads. First one is to get your opponents objectives and the other is to hold your own objective. Here's what I came up with.

 

To get an objective - Reasoning: your prob going to assault with this unit so Bolters and Sonic Blasters are out of the question. The Blastmaster has assault ability and allows you to move and shoot and assault and shoot. The Champion has an ap3 flamer which is pretty effective especially when you get to your opponent's objective you can hold it and overwatch.

6-8 Noise Marines

Blastmaster

the rest - CCW and Bolt Pistol

Champion - LC and Doom Siren

Rhino

 

To hold an objective - Reasoning: their whole point is to sit on an objective so they need to fire as much as they can at an opponent's units as they are coming to claim yours. Plus overwatch allows you to shoot your Salvo 3 directly at them giving your heavy fire even at only hitting on 6s. Your Blastmaster can shoot on overwatch with assault frequency and shoot your opponent as the come to you from further away.

5-7 Noise Marines

Blast Master

the rest - Sonic Blasters

Champion - LC

A few points

 

Objective taking squads:

-Doom Siren & a meltabomb are must haves from my experience.

-You are right, Sonic Blasters are out.  They are inefficient even when stationary (except under very specific circumstances), moving makes them a drag.

-Bolters are not out.  The new changes to rapid fire gives the NM squad a lot of flexibility as they advance up the board or hold a midfield objective.  I would always take bolter, bolt pistol, extra CCW for its added flexibility at a minimal cost.

-Blastmasters are out.  Yes they have an assault setting, but you are paying 30pts for a gimped heavy bolter because an assault squad is going to spend almost every turn moving (meaning marginal returns on the investment of the BM).  Two more Noise Marines will serve an assault unit better than one blastmaster.

 

Holding Objectives:

 

-Putting an LC (or any weapon upgrade) on your Champ means this squad always has wasted points.  If you are in CC you BM is a waste and your LC probably won't do much to swing the odds in your favor.  If you are shooting your LC is a waste because it is one less cheap bullet catcher body between your BM and that last wound which takes out the squad.  At most I would spring for a Meltabomb to protect from getting bogged by AV 13 walkers, that is it.

-No Sonic Blasters unless you are purposely taking a MoS Sorc to get the strength boost synergy.  SB's range and ideal target don't match up well with the BM, thus one or the other is always a waste.  BM's biggest advantage is the range they give us over most other armies.  Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Necrons, Grey Knights, and Eldar foot troops all outclass our SB shooting in the 24" range, but our BM's let us outclass those same armies at ranges greater than 24".  If you are taking advantage of this (and you must if you want to play NM competitively) then your squads will get minimal use out of those costly SBs.

 

Nettes are still far more effective to take an objective than NM arkangl. Nettes are faster and far more killy in CC, albeit more fragile as well but if you're careful they should be alright. NM are usually better off as a 5 man BM unit. Bonzi's experimented with a CC equipped squad and usually has better results with the nettes. Right?

 

Anyways, since these types of armies usually suffer a bit against 2+ saves, has anyone thought of including a unit of havocs/chosen with PGs? Might help fill that gap.

Yes, netts far outclass NM in terms of assault value and for their contribution of AP 2 which is a sticking point for NM based armies.  You are correct in the summary of my results.  Assault NM were dependable/ok in their performance.  Assault Nettes are wildly amazing and destructive.  Nettes have better synergy by bringing things to the table that NM armies don't have on their own.  Doom Sirens are great but they don't really do anything that a blastmaster can't do at far greater ranges.

 

 

I have cast my eye towards PG Havocks but have never tested them.  As I have said before, once you have your prime base of blastmasters and nettes, the most important things left to slot into the army are ranged ap1 and 2.  The thing I keep coming back to is that I would rather have one or two oblits for the same-ish price.  While not as good inside of 12", the Oblits are more durable and can alternate between PG's, PC's, and LC's and I am a big fan of flexibility.  The other upside is powerfists.  A PG havock squad can be easily tied up in CC where as an Oblit squad is a far more dangerous thing to be trying to punch.  In general I would like to try Havocks but for me it would have to be in lists bigger than 1,500pts where their specialization would generally have a useful outlet.

[Fibonacci]

BM's biggest advantage is the range they give us over most other armies. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Necrons, Grey Knights, and Eldar foot troops all outclass our SB shooting in the 24" range, but our BM's let us outclass those same armies at ranges greater than 24".

I'm not following this. How can a DA troop with bolters out shoot Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters?

Not counting seargents, just troop for troop the math is not working that way.

10 DA tac marines with bolters cost 140 points and can fire 10 shots at 24". At best they get 20 shots at 12". Giving the the better option (12" instead of your suguessted 24") it comes to 7 points per shot. At 24" it costs 14 points per shot.

 

10 Noise Marines with sonic blasters cost 210 points and can fire 30 shots at 24" range. This means it cost 7 points per shot.

 

It is a point for point trade off at 12" while sonic weapons are twice as effective per point at 24" range. At 12" you would need 15 DA to equal 10 NM with blasters; the point cost for both are the same - 210 points. At 24" you would need 30 DA to put out the same fire as 10 NM.

 

 

Are you counting on having the Banner of Devistation for the DA? To do that you would have to add a command squad and the extra point costs for a non-troop unit. Adding this cost in the DA troop + Command squad costs 305 points and can fire 40 shots at 24" range. That's 7.625 points per shot. Add in the commad squad's shooting and it finally breaks over. 68 shots at ~4.5 points per shot.

 

And by the way, that command squad plus banner is 10 points less than a heldrake. If we get to add other units to our troop for troop test .... I'l take a drake, please.

 

[edit to fix a math mistake]

[Brother Ambroz]

The point still stands that a DA squad or two with their dakka banner will outshoot us at 24" though. If you're adding in heldrakes then they might as well add in fortifications, like the new quad icarius.

[Fibonacci]

Then we get to adding in full armies which is where the comparisons really mean anything.  Especially when one percision shot ends the DA advantage for the entire army.  Baring that, with a DA player packing troops near the banner they become vulnerable to template spam.  Even a BS3 plasma fiend can scatter a good distance and still hit a squad.

 

Why bother compairing 1 to 1 if there is extra help on the other side? 

 

OK, so dakka banner can give more shots.  Given a lvl 1 sorc, NM can cause S5 hits.

 

10 DA tacs near the banner cause:

40 bolt gun hits = 20 wounds = about 7 dead marines.

 

10 NM with blaster firing at a the sorc's target cause:

30 blaster hits = 20 wounds = about  7 dead marines.

 

Still.  Its a wash.  Yes the dakka banner is good but it only does the same thing other armies can do, just in a different manner.

[minigun762]

How are you upgrading your Alluress and Herald? Etherblades seem like smart choices but not sure if you need the extra S from greater ones.

[Brother Ambroz]

You take in more variables and more points when you add in the sorceror to that. Just adding in more tacs to the DA squads would add up quickly as well. You're right though we can't compare every unit.

[arkagl]

Yea Fabonacci I put my lord on an incarus lascannon on top my a bastion or on an aegis line and precision shot like you said bye bye banner or just template the crap out of that squad first turn with Blastmasters. Either way its not gonna look pretty for the 5 or 6 (if you add your commander to your command squad) when I drop 4+ templates on top of it.

[Bowlzee]

The Problem with Being Salvo is that if you need to move you've halved your shooting distance... And if your playing as Static squad I would much rather have two 5-man NM squads with a Blastmaster in each. Comes to about 250pts, depending on Champion upgrades. This is a much more versatile unit imho.

[Bonzi]

 I'm going to back track and admit that SB's are not awful and I can see how they could be a fun weapon to put on NM.  I'm sure there are combos and builds out there that I haven't thought of that make great use of them, but I really do think it would take a purpose built army and dedicated tactics to make them work and any discussion of them really needs to happen in the context of the army they are being used in.  As a personal preference and from my experience I would never take them as a general upgrade for a NM unit.  I really don't want to become one of those 'this is the only way to play X army' guys because it was people like that which made me look deeper in the CSM codex for unusual units and play styles that were not flavor of the month.  I encourage anyone to dig deep and come up with new play styles or combos rather than giving in to the stagnation that internet lists seem to generate.

 

Thus, I will stand by my statement that as a general upgrade SB's are subpar; however, I am excited to discuss or think about builds that would make SB's a deadly part of the NM arsenal.

 

 

You take in more variables and more points when you add in the sorceror to that. Just adding in more tacs to the DA squads would add up quickly as well. You're right though we can't compare every unit.

 

You can't compare every unit, but you can see the general strengths of different armies.  My point stands that there are several armies which do 24" shooting more efficiently than we do and trying to beat them at their own game is not how you win battles.  Setting aside DA there are still a lot of armies that do 24" better than we do.

 

As to the DA match-up, think of it this way:

 

Would you rather duke it out inside of 24" with your SB squads going up against his Tac squads with the banner and maybe be get the better of a two way bloodbath -or- would you rather sit at 48", nullify the banner and all his bolters and let your BM's do all the work.  Which plays more heavily to NM strengths, maximizes our points efficiency and ignores the enemies strengths and makes their costly upgrades a waste?

 

 

How are you upgrading your Alluress and Herald? Etherblades seem like smart choices but not sure if you need the extra S from greater ones.

 

My default setting is Herald: Locus of B, Greater gift, lesser gift.

 

Unless I roll a really good greater gift (corpulesence, touch of uncreation, or hellfire gaze) I always default to the greater blade.  That extra strength increases the number of AP 2 wounds you cause before almost anyone can swing back.  I occasionally stack both the greater and lesser blades for the +1 attack that the dual specialist grants but it really boils down to what I roll for gifts and who I'm facing.

[Sanguis militis]

Just curious, have you played any games with nm where you lost? I love reading your battle reports - I have 0 interest in chaos usually but these are very well detailed and offer an interesting look into an army I'm always on the other side of. With that being said I'm curious to see what was able to beat your army and why

[arkagl]

I've just started playing NM army but I've played about 10-15 games. I have been playing 40k though for a long time and 3.0 csm was my first army. I've only lost 2 of them, 1 to a Deathwing list and 2 to a Necron Flyer list. I did lost on a team battle list to 2 Tau players but I don't really consider it bc I hadn't played a Tau players for a long time and the new rules came out so I was target prioritising wrong and so was my IG teammate.

 

Deathwing my problem was it was only 1500 and I didnt take a lot of AP2 weapons bc of the lack of points. I got tabled and he lost about half his army.

 

Necron Flyers it was 2000 points and my problems were my heldrakes didnt come in until turn 4 and he blew up my bastion with my icarus las b4 his flyers came in. Didn't get tabled but only had a 1/4 of my army left by the end.

 

I'd say both are my fault.

 

I have also played  and won against the new eldar, IG, space marines, dark eldar, tyranids, and blood angels for my other games. Armies I'd like to play against to see how I stand up against them is Grey Knights, Sisters and Space Wolves. In my local meta there is mostly SM armies about 3/4, the deathwing army is the only one in the area (which I play a lot being a close friend), and there is a handful of Necron Flyers in the area.

 

I can make a break down of how I faired against each army if you'd like but it would take some time to remember some of those games. I can tell you the Nid army was a copy of the one from Adepticon and I tabled them by making a gunline.

[SRSFACE]

An idea for the second HQ choice: un-marked Chaos Sorcerer.

 

You don't HAVE to run a mark on a sorcerer, and doing so allows you to abuse the fact they get level 3 mastery and access to Biomancy. A 50% chance to get Endurance is a lot better than a 33% chance to get endurance.

 

The reason you want to aim for this power is pretty simple: Targeted Relentless on squads. Having noise marines run around with Endurance is incredible. Rolling it will likely win you the game.

 

That said, there's always that big chance you don't get it. Luckily Biomancy is pretty amazing anyway.

[UlsanGamer]

Actually isn't it closer to 60% chance? As you can re roll duplicate rolls.

 

1/6+1/5+1/4= 61.6%

 

Definitely worth a shot I think. And probably a lot of fun too.

[SRSFACE]

That's a good point, but I also figure there's a chance you primaris out if you roll Haemorrhage. I love the rest of the powers in Biomancy but I am not a fan of that spell compared to Smite. It tends be a do-nothing spell whenever I've rolled it while Smite frequently comes in handy against terminators and obliterators.

 

Still, I have seen it happen, and it's gross. Personally I'm an all-in guy when it comes to Noise Marines and I like to run 1 ubersquad that's decked out to the max for what I believe is around 500ish points. Reason is pretty simple: the more guys in a squad with the icon of excess, the more valuable that icon becomes. 30 points to give twenty seperate 20 point models feel no pain, it'll make it's value back guaranteed.

[Bonzi]

That's a good point, but I also figure there's a chance you primaris out if you roll Haemorrhage. I love the rest of the powers in Biomancy but I am not a fan of that spell compared to Smite. It tends be a do-nothing spell whenever I've rolled it while Smite frequently comes in handy against terminators and obliterators.

 

Still, I have seen it happen, and it's gross. Personally I'm an all-in guy when it comes to Noise Marines and I like to run 1 ubersquad that's decked out to the max for what I believe is around 500ish points. Reason is pretty simple: the more guys in a squad with the icon of excess, the more valuable that icon becomes. 30 points to give twenty seperate 20 point models feel no pain, it'll make it's value back guaranteed.

Unless it eats a couple Str 8 Ap 3 or better pie plate, of which there are several.  Also, that is 500pts of unit that can only do one thing at a time.  I'd rather have 3 or 4 units that can target different things, bring more blastmasters to the table, capture more objectives and provide more target saturation for the enemy.  Uber units make your list inflexible and predictable.

[northoceanbeach]

Great thread!

[Dallas Drake]

I'm not a fan of 5 man BM squads or sonic blasters (even with infiltrate) so I've been thinking of running a Slaanesh Lord on a steed with the burning brand & a lightning claw (outflanking either with Oblits/Cultists or on his own depending on what they have backfield) and then 2 x 10 man Noise Marines squads w/CCWs in rhinos; power sword, meltabomb & doom siren on the champion.

 

Against most armies I plan to reserve the fragile Rhino NMs (let my Biomancy L3 Tzeentch sorcerer on a disc, 2 squads of autocannon havocs & 6 obliterators pop transports/mech) then use them to bully other troops, push MEQs off objectives turn 3-4; & generally murder stuff with bolters, I5 & that S5 AP3 template. 

 

Anyone else running NMs like this?

Dallas

[Phytoon]

Sounds pretty legit. For a while, I was considering putting my Lord on a steed so that my bikes could outflank. The advantage of outflanking versus a toughness 5 lord is fairly nice, especially if you can outflank a tank with melta-bikes. Of course, most units would benefit from outflank, so it's hard for me to decide what to do with that.

 

I also considered running a sorcerer, though to be honest, they just seem too risky for my preference. I understand that getting the spells you want makes them amazing, but with no guarantee of what spells you get, I'd be paying 50 extra points to have a chance at Iron Arm, but most likely end up getting haemmorrhage and life leech. Granted, those are still pretty good powers, but they don't prevent instant death. That disc might be fun though. I just don't have anything else to run with him if he moves like a jetbike (besides the bikes, but that's already Zed's thing, so we're not making them non-slaanesh.)

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to find out how your lord does on a steed, so by all means go ahead and try that out. I might follow suit. Outflanking is still pretty new to me, and I'd love to have my guys pop in right where the enemy doesn't want them.

[minigun762]

Might be fun to outflank a full 20 man squad of Noise Marines with ubergrit and IoE.

 

Nothing screams "deal with me now" like a giant mass of drugged up twitchy pain junkies on your doorstep.

[Dallas Drake]

Sounds pretty legit. For a while, I was considering putting my Lord on a steed so that my bikes could outflank. The advantage of outflanking versus a toughness 5 lord is fairly nice, especially if you can outflank a tank with melta-bikes. Of course, most units would benefit from outflank, so it's hard for me to decide what to do with that.

 

I also considered running a sorcerer, though to be honest, they just seem too risky for my preference. I understand that getting the spells you want makes them amazing, but with no guarantee of what spells you get, I'd be paying 50 extra points to have a chance at Iron Arm, but most likely end up getting haemmorrhage and life leech. Granted, those are still pretty good powers, but they don't prevent instant death. That disc might be fun though. I just don't have anything else to run with him if he moves like a jetbike (besides the bikes, but that's already Zed's thing, so we're not making them non-slaanesh.)

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to find out how your lord does on a steed, so by all means go ahead and try that out. I might follow suit. Outflanking is still pretty new to me, and I'd love to have my guys pop in right where the enemy doesn't want them.

 

Don't forget Sorcerers have force weapons.  Over on the BA forum in Morticon's tournament thread Mephiston got charged by two Wraithknights, little did anyone realise that Mephiston could've wiped them both off the table in one go by activating his FW & splitting his attacks.  Sorcerers, I feel, get a massive boost from their Force Weapons, granted it's all kind of about getting Iron Arm, but if you don't get that you still get 2 powers & +1T, +1A, Hammer of Wrath, Jink, Relentless, Turbo-boost (24''), move 12'' on top of whatever you roll on.  You are still 3++ vs. ID.  Force axe all the way for me as Sorcerers are pretty lousy at I4.

 

I will keep you informed of the Lord, he's not great but if I'm paying the tax to get NMs in the list I feel I should use him for something, I hope he can be a right pain in the ass if used right, nobody likes AP3 templates in their backyard & he is still quite tasty in melee if he gets charged, I just don't expect him to take on too much.

 

Dallas

[Bonzi]

The only difficulty in the steed + bikes is that your lord can get sniped out of the unit.  The bikes jink is a cover save and you can opt to focus fire on models in a unit that don't have a cover save...in this instance the lord on steed.  For infantry or similar units I can see it being a big boon because they are so slow to get to the enemy.  With bikes I have found it is better to have them on the board from the start to put pressure on my opponent.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

Really great thread!

 

I can definitely see the attraction of using Daemonettes in this kind of list, but their lack of assault grenades kind of concerns me.  Isn't that one of the reasons Possessed (who admittedly are way more expensive) are usually discounted as viable options?  I've also seen Skull Cannons and/or Fiends referred to as "must takes" in daemon lists that feature Bloodletters or 'nettes, specifically to address their lack of frags.  How has this worked out for you in practice?  Do you tend to play on low terrain density tables?  (That's not the norm in my meta, by I gather it's fairly common for many, especially in tournaments.)