Nature vs. Nurture, the What If? edition

[Adra'Melek]

Had a read. I like the idea. I think it needs more focus on Fulgrim's obsession. At the moment it could kind of be any of them (which is the problem as their Worlds were a massive part of what shaped them, which is the whole point of this) That is (the main?) one of his defining characteristics I think, the obsessive drive to perfection. How did his obsession over killing the Wyrm affect him. Did he become withdrawn, guilt ridden, bitter with failure. Or did it just highlight his focus and determination. Also what about the idea of him replacing a health arm with a bionic to give him extra strength to driver the spear home? I like the bit about his silver spear.

 

There is of course the other way in that he tries and tries and tries but keeps failing. Then the Emperor kills it for him :)

[Ace Debonair]

There is of course the other way in that he tries and tries and tries but keeps failing. Then the Emperor kills it for him

Causing a massive inferiority complex as Fulgrim looks at all the great things his brothers have achieved and becomes increasingly desperate to earn their respect, going so far as to throw himself at the most impossible tasks just for that one chance to prove he's not a terrible writer the weakest Primarch?

Sounds like someone I know pretty well. Might just be crazy enough to work, too.

Cheers dude. I now have much to think about.

EDIT:

Bad ambiguous statement! Bad!

Might actually name the Primarch involved so nobody thinks I mean the Emperor has an inferiority complex.

[Conn Eremon]

I think the need for perfection, the obsession, might be a Chemosian trait rather than inherent in Fulgrim. Going off of what we know of pre-Fulgrim Emperor's Children, the usual traits are nobility and pride. However, he is right about how this Fulgrim could technically be any of them. Though I am proud of the Lightning Bearer, I have to admit that I fell into the same trap. To the point that someone even thought I was rewriting your own Fulgrim, and the only thing I could point out that showed it wasn't was that I put a V on his chest.

[Ace Debonair]

I suppose Medusa and the battle against Asirnoth are going to have fairly similar results for any Primarch.

What I most want out of this Fulgrim is to take what is probably the most universally disliked Primarch (I certainly find him a bit obnoxious, as do a lot of people on the forum, I gather) and turn him into someone worthy of respect. Someone who doesn't know how to just lay down and die, and will do something like kill a -ing vicious metal dragon with a spear just because leaving it alive to wreck the planet up and eat people would be unthinkable.

Which, translated into Legion terms, gives us an Emperor's Children who will just grit their teeth and chew their way through any obstacle because failure is simply not an option to them. Giving up as a concept would be utterly alien to them. A legion with a mentality like; 'If Fulgrim can kill a dragon with a spear, we can wipe this horde of filthy xenos/heretics/mutants out with our bolters, our knives, our bare hands if we have to '.

They'd still be artisans at heart, though, because I also want ornately carved and sculpted bionic bits in gleaming silver.

I have no idea how to write it out though, so it sorta sucks to be me right now.

[Adra'Melek]

It's really REALLY hard distinguishing between traits that are environmental in origin and those that are genetic (which is what we're doing here right?). Some are intrinsically linked with their Primarch so it's almost impossible to separate.

 

Regarding the perfection that, do you mean that due to the lack of resources the efficiency had to be high to survive? Then the low numbers of the 3rd Legion meant this continued? I think from the Fulgrim's time of Chemos he was extremely intelligent , developing the technology, methodologies to maximise efficiency. And then the lack of art and luxury meant he went crazy when it was available.

[High MarshalGR]

αρχή looks like it comes out as "Archi"(think Archie)

 

κατάληξη comes out as "Katalixi"(think Cat-a-lick-see) I think. My book is for Konei Greek, not Classical Greek. Not much difference, but there just might be enough.

 

I can aid a bit here since Greek is my native language.

"Αρχή" means beginning, and "Άλφα" (Alpha) is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, assosiated with beginnings.

"Τέλος" means end, and "Ωμέγα" (Omega) is the last letter of the Greek alphabet, assosiated with endings.

 

So, here's an attempt on the "What if?" Rogal Dorn on Mundus Planus (Colgoris) scenario as I intercept it. As before, please don't be too harsh on me for small mistakes, English is not my native and I don't wanna use translators.

 

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                              Shaku Konda, Warlord of the VII Legion, the Honourable Fists

                                                        (Rogal Dorn on Mundus Planus)

 

The paradise of crystal clear waters, beautiful meadows, thick forests known as "Colgoris" by it's population, witnessed a unique event in it's history the fateful day when the calm, dark blue sky of the night went aflame: An unknown object, which could be interpreted as a meteor from the Imperium's scolars, set the sky on fire... Which was not meant to go unnoticed by the inhabitants of the planet. For them it was a sign the heavens sent them. Some interpreted it as a gift, and some as a curse. The latter were really close to the Hiahou valley, the point where the unknown object made contact with the ground. Members of the Gengii clan felt a sharp pain from the solar plexus area of their bodies, where a tattoo of ancient origins responded violently the time the object approached Colgoris. A tattoo made seemingly out of their flesh itself at their time of birth, featuring an eight pointed star, "came to life" at that moment... The pain was too much to handle. Whispers began, an esoteric dialog, a phenomenon they percieved as communication with the Heavens ordered them to eliminate the falling star, or one could say they lost control of their bodies and something other than their will moved them. No matter how they were driven, the result was the same: Gengii's finest warriors were ordered by the tribe's druids to eliminate the "fallen star", no matter what it was. So they marched to the Hiahou valley where they saw a monstrocity by their standards: A huge rock made of metal, in which a small infant was lying asleep. Still, their will was not of importance since their bodies attacked with fervor and zeal against the infant. It awoke the moment it felt their presence nearby, as if the Heaven's will showed mercy upon it. The infant took devastating blows by the warriors, but managed to kill it's enemies with it's bare hands, and it proved to be able to endure much physical damage by it's sheer will alone. Something inside it triggered, it felt something horrendous from it's assasins, a feeling that made it turn away and leave, as if something which was hostile lied within their dead bodies.

 

The infant fell asleep, it's wounds healing rapidly. The morning sun's gentle beams og light awoke the exhausted youth, and it's traumas were completely closed. With it's strenght back to normal, it began wandering the magical meadows and the enchanting forests of Colgoris. Seemingly tireless, the infant came across many locals coming in caravans, and one of those imigrant tribes found interest in him. Well-developed for his age, he was considered as a good asset for them. He had strong, trench like feet and when he walked his footsteps were steeady and strong, a good sign for the Wulfan clan, an immigrant clan which chose a land temporarily according to the weather, which came to extremes many times in the course of the circle of seasons. They named the youngster Shaku Konda after the strong connections to the element of Earth the Shamans of the tribe divinated for the child. He accumulated the knowledge they had to offer to him at an incredibly fast rate, so fast that the elders of the tribe were impressed. He learned about the five elements the Wulfan believed the world consisted of, namely fire, water, air, earth and void. Shaku learned a lot about each of them, since they were fundamental from the Wulfan's viewpoint. He also realized the ones who attacked him were followers of the Void, the unstable and rarely seen element which was meant to consume itself, thus always being empty. The Wulfan were a nomad tribe, so the attacks of the Palatines, forces of the most powerful empire on the planet yet didn't concern them. But the nomad life wasn't feeling so good inside Shaku. Something inside him wasn't feeling right, so he engaged a journey around Colgoris until he met what felt right within and stay there. It was then he realized he judged himself continously, and he understood that he was his own judge, neutral and sincere.

 

The journey was long and years went by quickly... Shaku Konda, now an adult by Terran standards, met with the destruction the wars between the tribes caused, but his will drove him to continue his journey, until he met a child under attack by the Palatines, who beat and pilaged the defeated. That felt so wrong within Shaku, and he killed the three Palatines who attacked the small girl with ease. The girl introduced herself as Kiku, and Shaku wanted to escort her home safe. That felt correct and offered him pleasure. Yinzhou was the name of the village, and it was located in a deep valley between two mountains which seemed to salute one another. Yinzhou was a village that felt really appealing to Shaku: It's social connections and structure were defined by four values: Courage, Honor, Truth and Wisdom. Once the rulers of the village met with a stranger who went into so many troubles to return a child to it's home, they decided to ask him to stay with them since he fullfilled all of their requirements in doing so. In his eyes, they didn't see the fiery eyes which defined a good warrior, but they saw something else: Eyes that looked within, like the entrance to a huge cave where no one knew how many treasures were hidden. A man who judged himself first and foremost, a truthseeker like themselves. Shaku accepted their offer, fascinated by the simple rules which they used to create a society so efficient and prosperous.

 

There Shaku was trained in the art of war, and his brilliant mind from a militaristic perspective was revealed to them. Disciplined and ordered, zealous and inspirational, he embrased two ways so alien to one another and married them. For his dedication in perserving peace for his home and driving the Palatines away battle by battle he was awarded with the Kisei, the General's Daisho consisting of a katana and a wakizashi, the weapons everyone in Yinzhou was trained to use. His tactics and maneuvers on the battlefield were a piece of art to watch and witness, but his greatest strength lied in his indominable will and his rock-hard dedication. In just a few years he managed to unify all the tribes under his own House of Shaku Konda. His rule was one of freedom and justice, since he left most of the administration to the tribes alone, for which he wrote a pact every leader swore to obey.

 

A few years later an unkown giant object blocked the sun's watchful eye and many "stars" fell on the surface, "stars" that Shaku's powerful memory identified to the one he awoke in, many years ago. From one of them descended a small sun, a man who emitted light all around him. The stanger easily found his way to Yinzhou, no matter how well it used Mother Nature's camouflage. It was as if the stranger was drawn by Shaku, and Shaku was himself drawn by him. They met near the village's entrance. The stranger introduced himself as the Emperor of Mankind, and explained the reasons behind his visit without lies or long speeches. The stranger's honesty surprised Shaku who examined his eyes. They were fiery like a good warrior's, watery as a good peacemaker's, aetherly like a Shaman's and earthy like his own... But there was something inside them outside of those, that made Shaku speak a mighty unbreakable oath, one like his village's traditions demanded when one offers his loyalty and self to another with his whole heart. Colgoris was now at peace and the time for Shaku to leave and fulfill his oath had come. He had responded the call from his heart, and upon learning everything he needed to know about the Imperial scholars had to teach him, he took command of the VII Legion, named the Honourable Fists by Shaku. With his Daisho at his left side and his will unbreakable, he threw himself in the Great Crusade.

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[Adra'Melek]

I like the idea of having Dorn on Lycaeus as part of the ruling class. Crushing a prison rebellion, having brutal discipline. Passing that onto his Legion. Not the horror of the Night Lords but brutal police states. Perhaps even having his legion split into 'policemen' on multitudes of planets while his brother go on to gain glory through conquest (parody of Peturabo acknowledged, copy copy copy)

 

Edit: I put that in before seeing yours High Martial. A more relaxed Dorn is an interesting idea. Not as uptight and uptight but still firm and dependable.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Its a case of thinking 'what defines X Primarch, which of those are probably from the environment, which are natural'

 

For example, I took Jonson and put him on Nocturne. What are his canon traits? Paranoia, stubborness, strategic genius, loyalty, protector (wipes out the beasts of Caliban), Knightly focus, martial. From those, I thought, what was built up in the martial order/growing up in the forests, and what did they arise from?

 

So, I considered his knightlyness, nobility, stubborness, paranoia/not-a-people-person and uber loyalty to be from Caliban with the protector and strategic genius, as well as stubborness in some way, to be his nature. He has no opportunity to develop bad social skills, being raised in a loveing home/village. He has loyalty to his people, his desire to protect comes out stronger because he know sees them as his people. The knightly theme translates into a guardian theme, his strategic genius remains, so unlike Vulkan he is not that great at making things, but he knows its worth so he instead embraces those who can forge things and protects them from those who would destroy it.

 

From a socially stunted, relatively cold-hearted tactician, I emerged with one who has a desire to protect, can relate to people and is still a stubborn tactician with a desire to eradicate the 'beasts' of the galaxy (in this case, being Eldar/DEldar/other Xenos)

[Adra'Melek]

Rogal Dorn - The Warden - The Iron Fist

Primarch of the VII Legiones Astartes - The Procurators

Rogal Dorn - Deliverance or Lycaeus/Kiavahr

 

They used to whisper his name in the deepest cell, cursing him for the misery he forced on them. Those that did were taken and never seen again.

 

• Dorn found on Kiavahr by minor family
• Sent to work on Lycaeus as overseer
• Bloody riot, Dorn puts it down (hard), maybe after a friend from back home is killed?
• Develops tactics for repressing slaves prisoners but high attrition rate.
• Bring over more prisoners to work the mines, including any sign of mutations and minor crimes (and 'innocents')
• Emperor arrives and Dorn follows as a model citizen, teaching his legion his methods of populous control

[Grimdarkness]

Nothing to see here move along please.

 

 

 

My idea is for a way different what if.

[Conn Eremon]

If you really want to, go for it. But if this thing gets voted, I'm willing to bet that =][=DELETED=][= will win for the II and XI slots.

[GhostMalone]

Still loving fulgrim dorn angron and perturabo and corax.

[Marshal Rohr]

You guys are meaner to Dorn than black library

[Wade Garrett]

Peculiar notion that wouldn't leave me alone.


"Where," the tall man asked, "is my little brother?"

Alcinor tried to look him in the eye, but it was impossible to hold that black gaze. Those eyes had seen too much, sunken into a network of furrows and wrinkles carved by the horrors they had witnessed.

"You know Phelas has always felt a bit...trapped in this valley." he told his questioner's battered boots."It hasn't been easy for him, hearing the tales of the Great War and the Harpy regiments..."

"The babbling of idiots who've never heard a man screaming while his guts are all over the ground in front of him or smelled the bodies of children devoured by flames, you mean." the tall man snapped, and Alcinor cringed before his sudden wrath. Normally the older brother was a dry one, his every emotion buried beneath a desert of cynicism, but singing the praises of the jump pack elite he'd trained for Damnekos never failed to kindle his rage.

"He's a young man, my lord." the greybearededelder muttered, reflecting on the differences between the two brothers. Both were pale as quarried marble, but where the eldest was blackhaired, bitterly sarcastic about most things, and seemed to carry the weight of the world,
Phelas was among the handsomest men in the village, forever setting his shoulder length snow white hair swaying with an easy quip or an infectious laugh.

"It was the stranger, lord. The one that spoke to you when..."

"HIM!" the black haired man fairly spat the words. "Allow me to guess. He spoke to my fool brother about the opportunities for glory and
honor, of leading armies of heroes in a righteous battle among the stars themselves. Never mind that I brought us to this valley precisely to escapefrom such...lunacy."

"Lord..."

"i am not angry with you, Alcinor." the older brother said absently, already thinking of whathe'd need for the journey to Lothos. It was the only starport on the planet, and if the stranger had truly come from offworld his ship would probably be docked there. "The stranger had a way with words, and Phelas has been restless of late."

"He is your brother."

"Hmmmph." Konrad replied, thinking back to the day his scouting party of Harpies had found the perfect infant amid the ruins of the strange pod. Almost forgotten dark visions swirled at the edge of his memories, of a war without end and horrors beyond anything even his jaded eyes had ever seen, but he forced them aside. Surely if he could make it to Lochos in time, he could persuade his brother to return to their peaceful valley. And if not...well, he'd scale that cliff when he reached it.


Explanation:
Retired old soldier Konrad Curze raising a younger Fulgrim on Olympia. Yes, Kol, the Night Lords aren't the jump pack Legion, but I thought such troops would suit Konrad's instincts for war better, plus they'd be able to get around in the mountainous terrain instead of just SIEGE SIEGE SIEGE.

[Conn Eremon]

Two Primarchs, same world, not Alpharius Omegon.

 

Man, I got a weird craving for some McDonald's, because I'M LOVIN' IT!

[Hyaenidae]

DELETED

[Conn Eremon]

To clarify my interests in Wade's last post, got to say I love how simple their natures were boiled down to. Fulgrim was lost, because he wanted more. Konrad was strict, because he wanted order. That is exactly what I love seeing. The bare essentials of the Primarchs boiled down and laid out.

[Wade Garrett]

A few things:

 

We know the Primarch's pods tumbled through the Warp for varying amounts of time, so it's not impossible that Curze could have landed and grown to manhood before baby Fulgrim touched down in SPACE GREECE.

 

Phelas is...I was thinking of how Olympia has Thalia, goddess of wine and art, so i imagined Phelas as their local Apollo or Hermes knock off.

 

As for baby brother Fulgrim...canon III Primarch is absolutely driven to be the best at everything. He'll take down the laer in a week, sculpt awesome art, apply Guilliman's tactics better than he does, etc.

 

But we don't get an explanation why, beyond "genetically coded to be a perfectionist".

 

But a Fulgrim whose lived his whole life in the shadow of a legendary older brother, whose accomplishments in the War of Olympian Union are spoken of like we discuss Hannibal, Rommel, and Robert E. Lee (something nags me about my list of examples...oh well.) A brother who deliberately kept him out of the military and stuck in the sticks "for his own good"...

 

Now we've got an explanation for that drive to excel. Greatness isn't enough, big brother was/is great...Phelas wants perfection.

 

Oh, and a jerk move by the Emperor dragging Curze out of a content retirement by dangling bait in front of a naive young man. That's tension between Konrad and Fulgrim plus Konrad resenting the Emperor.

 

But I'm sure everyone will work through their feelings and pass through the bitterness tempest into the smooth seas of stable familial relationships.

 

Why those two? Fulgrim was apparently Curze's mentor during his early days as a Primarch, although the only thing to show for it are some throw away lines in Prince of Crows and the Dark King. I just decided to swap their roles.

[Conn Eremon]

Hey, if Angroncould, so can they!

 

I am curious about this Curze. The idea that he has retired. Horus warred for two entire centuries, and wanted more. I am 25 years old. I can barely imagine the scope of a war lasting my entire lifetime. Eight times my entire life, without a hint of slowing down? Jesus.

 

What happened on Olympia?

[Wade Garrett]

What happened on Olympia?

Well, for starters, Curze isn't Horus. Original timeline seemed quite content with pacifying Nostromo until the Emperor showed up.

 

I imagine the unification of Olympia became quite a grind, what with it being a world of fortress cities that began the wearing down of Perturabo, even if Konrad's doctrines of highly mobile infantry weren't quite as reliant on back breaking attrition as the Lord of Iron's.

 

Secondly, since I mentioned a starport, I'm imagining offworld forces like the greenskins, hrud, the Black Judges (mentioned as one of the first foes Perturabo faced in Angel Exterminatus. All we know is they wielded chain glaives that could cut Astartes armor) and possibly even various renegade human and Eldar forces all took a hand in the war, as backers, hired mercenaries, opportunistic raiders, etc.

 

By the time the smoke cleared Curze was well on his way to the disillusioned jerk we all know and love...then he finds a little boy like him. Who hasn't stained his hands with blood and his soul with sin. And then he tells Damnekos

"Have fun ruling, I'm off to grow flax and grapes on my estate."

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

General Kyle Anderson VI, President of Ameridia

You offer me power, I HAD power. You offer me family, I HAD family. Which you took away from me. Join you? I would rather die, as it is, it will be YOUR head which I take.

-         Kyle Anderson to the Emperor of Mankind.

When Chaos stole the Primarchs from under the Emperor’s protection, they were flung through time and space. During the Great Crusade the Emperor was united with all his lost sons, then came the great betrayal. The Heresy. And the rest, as they say, is history. But two were lost to us and the Emperor, two that time was ordered to forget. But there are those who know the truth, and, dare I say it, the truth is not always what is expected. If you ever have a chance to speak to Leman he will speak of executions, should you ask a Word Bearer they may mention the Ultramarines. Most do not, and never will, know even I know only part of the truth which I relay to you, reader, for you to believe as you will. You may consider what I write to be a fallacy, wishful thinking. The piecing together of legends as truth in my mind. Be it so, read on and make your own judgement!

 

As we know Chaos flung these young Primarchs through time and space sending them to planet after planet. One fell further than any of the others, yet closer to Luna than them all at the same time. It is said that a meteorite crashed into the Grand Canyon on the Great Western continent of Terra during the Time of Strife. Found by soldiers of President Anderson, the ruler of most of what was named in times long past America was an infant, perfectly formed, with brilliant blue eyes framed by black hair. Eyes that pierced into the very heart of those who found him. Terrified the soldier raised his rifle to shoot, halted at the last minute by Hillary Anderson, Colonel Hillary Anderson the President’s second daughter and feared commander. Taking the babe home she nursed him and raised him as her own naming him Kyle after the greatest of their families’ illustrious name. Raised in the White Palace the infant grew quickly,as did all his brothers who were scattered, and was taught in the art of war and politics. Soon he was placed in command of soldiers sent to pacify the Cartels where, he proved his skills were well learnt.

 

Rising swiftly through the ranks he was placed in command of the brutal shock troops of the Empire: The Marines. These gene-enhanced killing machines were second only to the Thunder Warriors of the so-called ‘Emperor’s’ forces, as the Anderson administration saw him. It was against these warriors that Kye took his forces earning a reputation for calculated brutality for he saw himself as the natural ruler of Terra: surely none could match or equal him, for was he not a god descended from the heavens? The Thunder Warriors, rarely defeated, fell back against this terrible avatar of war and destruction which tore holes in their forces. Nothing they could bring could defeat him, and the Emperor was elsewhere at this time. But his eye turned back towards the Anderson's and, seeing this terrible warrior, he became suspicious. He decided to launch a strike on the White Palace, leading it personally. It was there that President Hillary Anderson, the adoptive mother of Kyle, was killed as she organised the defence.

Kyle returned home and found all his family, the only people other than his beloved Marines he had cared about, dead in the ruins of his home. It was then that the Emperor offered him his ultimatum: surrender to me or suffer the fate of your family. Scornfully, he turned to this figure and told him that he would never surrender to a mere mortal and for his actions he would destroy him. So began a war that tore apart an already destroyed continent as the two empires at this time waged a war of annihilation against one another. As strong as Kyle was, as terrible his wrath, his armies were no match without him against the invading army marching under the Lightning Bolt. Pushed back to the Faceless Mountain, Kyle awaited the Emperor’s arrival. It was deep in its bowels that the two of them duelled to the death, Father against Son. The Emperor had realised that, somehow, this person was his son. That he was a Primarch from a project that had not yet been launched. Yet Kyle, filled with hate, refused to see this and tore into the Emperor swearing to kill him and unify Terra. Blow by blow the two of them fought, one twisted by hate, the other reacting in shock. Yet, the Emperor knew that humanity came first and so he thrust his mighty sword through Kyle and decapitated him before obliterating his soul and denying the thirsting gods their morsel.

 

Returning to his capital the Emperor met with Malcador and told him all that had passed. Declaring that this tragedy would never be discussed he planned to proceed with the project knowing it must be a success, although he knew that one would be lost to him and would never have his own sons. And he knew which one; for Kyle Anderson VI had always had the symbol II.

 

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I had the idea recently 'what if one went back in time and fought against the Emperor' so I wrote this for te lulz. Its of the II Primarch falling into Unification War Terra and fighting against the Emperor. Internet cookies to anyone who guesses what the Faceless Mountain actually is in modern time ;)

[Conn Eremon]

Perhaps the one currently with faces?

[Bryan Blaire]

I've often wondered how things might have played out if the Watchers in the Dark weren't a presence on Caliban and Chaos had been able to touch the Lion a little more through the likely-Tzeentech demon Oroborous. Would he have exhibited more of the psychic talent he had? That's a story possibility right there without even moving him off his homeworld, and what if he was picked up by the Knights of Lupus as a "Beast of Caliban" rather than Luther and raised with access to their arcane library?

 

The writings you guys have done here are very cool!

[Hyaenidae]

DELETED

[Conn Eremon]

It's certainly true how much we can change a Primarch by adjusting the same home world. My own, and others', Guilliman Heresy explored a Guilliman that was raised by Gallan rather than Konor, creating a Guilliman who had already once been betrayed by someone claiming to be his father.