Nature vs. Nurture, the What If? edition

[Hyaenidae]

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[Ace Debonair]

Crud. Wade's written a better and more driven Fulgrim without even really writing about him.

Back to the drawing board for me, then.

EDIT:

For my alt-heresy I was going to put Lorgar and Jaghatai Khan on the same planet, so Lorgar had someone to look up to and the Khan could go properly berserk when Lorgar inevitably bit the dust.

I think Curze/Fulgrim could probably do the same thing but better, if only because nobody does flipping their better than Konrad Curze with a grudge.

[Hyaenidae]

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[Ace Debonair]

Yeah, fair point, but I can't help but think there's a mean streak in Curze no matter where you put him.

 

Grinding his way through some brutal wars on Olympia is bound to give the guy some ideas on how to be inventively vicious, right?

[Hyaenidae]

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[High MarshalGR]

Funny, because I always saw Curze as a noble son, but broken from his upbringing on Nostromo. That nightmare of a planet turns heroes into monsters.

 

Any Primarch who touches her soil is tainted.

 

I wanna discuss it a bit so I'll present another view here about Curze. Another view says Curze suffered from an unknown time from bipolar disorder. I can see him from really early behaving like he does. He believes in justice, at least one part of him, but the other half believes in bloodshed. So, he enforced equility on Nostromo. Every single violation of the law (=the things Curze intercepted as correct) was punished by death penalty in a cruel manner. Yes, his upraising wasn't the best possible, but his innate ability to foresee the darkest possible future didn't help him either. I would say one side of him was just and temperate, while the other was chaotic from day one. Simply Nostromo encouraged the latter tremendously, but he still revealed himself as just. Other than all those, what he took when he assumed command of Nostromo was full and blind obedience. He made peace amd Nostromo progressed technologically, yes, but still he took no advice from some good people existing there (unless every single person from Nostromo's population was a piece of :cuss, which I think kinda unlikely, even for a fantastic world), neither did he create a self- efficient goverment system once he left to take charge in his absense so Nostromo fell again.

 

EDIT: 

 

 

You guys are meaner to Dorn than black library 

 

Why do you think it was so bad about Dorn Marshal2 Crusaders? I maintained Dorn's willpower and belief in Order and truth as the character traits he was born with, and I took the Asian path I believe was the closest that I know of for such an individual. It wasn't perfect, for granted, but I have not the space or the time to go with supreme detail over it. I also wanted to keep the whole "freedom" theme Colgoris have alive rather than say "Dorn became good" or "Dorn became bad". It is Perturabo's fan club job to humiliate Dorn and make him dark or traitor or whatever, not mine. Dorn kept the Daisho from the village he grew in after he joined the Emperor's forces, as he did with his grandfathers furr from Inwit, so I kept his sense of tradition. It took me 2 and a half hours to write it, so try to make posts that will help make it better rather than throwing it at the garbage bin for no reason.

[Hyaenidae]

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[Ace Debonair]

If I was writing Curze, I'd give him the split personality if I could, if only because I think those and his visions are iconic of the guy.

He wouldn't necessarily be unhinged, mind, it might just manifest as a slightly bipolar character, either collected and calm or the stern face of justice unrelenting.

 

Heathens: I can't remember if I brought this up earlier, but have you considered changing Perturabo's title/nickname to 'Shield of the Imperium'? It's a bit less of a mouthful than "Hypaspistai of the Imperium", and is still a powerful image.

[Hyaenidae]

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[Grimdarkness]

If you really want to, go for it. But if this thing gets voted, I'm willing to bet that =][=DELETED=][= will win for the II and XI slots.

Yeah thanks but the what If for those two legions would be a lot more then changing there homeworlds.

 

I may do it but make it a new topic.

[High MarshalGR]

 

You guys are meaner to Dorn than black library

 

Whatever. My Nostromian Dorn kicks more ass than a three-legged ninja.

 

Think "Perpetual Iron Cage."

 

Not ninja mind you... After all Colgoris maintained an Asian theme, fom which I was inspired by a certain country (Japan). I think I did well in maintaining key characteristics Dorn had (deep sense of order, supreme willpower, nobility and truth seeking from which I think the former 2 are birth traits) and I also tried to keep alive the planet's overall theme. Try to judge after you read more about the various cultures Japan had, and once you do, then tell me if "ninja" fits Dorn. You can easily downgrade my story because of ignorance, so here is a quote regarding ninjas:

 

nin·ja  (nhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifnhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifjhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif)

n. pl. ninja or nin·jas

A member of a class of 14th-century Japanese mercenary agents who were trained in the martial arts and hired for covert operations such as assassination and sabotage.

 

This is however what I used:

 

Bu·shi·do also bu·shi·do  (bhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oobreve.gifshhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-dhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif, bhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oomacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-)

n.

The traditional code of the Japanese samurai, stressing honor, self-discipline, bravery, and simple living.

 

Think it fits a Dorn from Colgoris pretty good, so I was inspired from here to create a variation.

 

Definitions are from the web page "the free dictionary". Why not try to learn more about what you are reading, then judge it positively or negatively?

[Wade Garrett]

Crud. Wade's written a better and more driven Fulgrim without even really writing about him.

Eh? All I did was take canon Fulgrim and give him a reason to have that raging inferiority complex he carries around. Well, he carried it before that whole "whimsically depraved Slaanesh worshipper" thing.

 

As for how I imagine that ending...

 

"Oh, now this is funny." Konrad chuckled, blood bubbling from the corners of his mouth.

 

"Brother..." Phelas gasped, reaching towards the hilt of his sword, as if he could somehow undo that final savage stroke that lodged it in the Nightwalker's neck.

 

"No. No crying. I knew this would happen...saw it the day I found you in the mountains. I didn't..." He smiled, a baring of broken teeth all the more ghastly for its sincerity. "I didn't know it would happen quite like this. This...this is good. Better than I expected."

 

"I didn't..I don't..."

 

"Hush, you. Didn't I say no crying? Now, when you pull that sword out, which I suggest you do soon, because the rest of that pack of traitors will be here shortly, that will be the end of me, but I want you to know...I'm so proud of you, Phelas. STOP CRYING. Death's easy...it's the keeping on living that's hard."

[Conn Eremon]

Ha ha. STOP CRYING.

 

I like the idea of Curze's envisioned ending being better than he thought it would by virtue of him being the fallen one who needed to be put down. I imagine this is the Palace, and Curze was the first to breach, or in his case mount, the walls.

[Wade Garrett]

Uh huh.

 

If I had to backstory...Curze goes traitor for reasons similar to canon Perturabo, his Legion has been repeatedly thrown into hellish fights in difficult terrain because that's their specialty (LEGION OF SHELL SHOCKED VIETNAM VETS!) and he already didn't like the Emperor.

 

He tries to turn his brother on Isstvan V, fails, beats him severely, but lets Phelas's Astartes drag him to safety. They pull back to Terra (can't return to Olympia for rebuild because Konrad burned it) and are on the walls when the final day dawns.

[Brother Heinrich]

For my loyalist Curze on Baal I had thought to have him take the place of Sanguinius and fall at the siege trying to defeat the arch-traitor before the emperor.

[Ace Debonair]

Crud. Wade's written a better and more driven Fulgrim without even really writing about him.

Eh? All I did was take canon Fulgrim and give him a reason to have that raging inferiority complex he carries around. Well, he carried it before that whole "whimsically depraved Slaanesh worshipper" thing.

And I think you've already done a better job than I did with my Fulgrim.

Yours is already a more compelling character, and he's not even really the focus of what you were writing.

[Hyaenidae]

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[Kol Saresk]

Except Chuck Norris. And the only thing that can beat Chuck Norris is Bruce Lee. So Nostraman Dorn actually beats Bruce Lee.

[Greyall]

I've been cooking something about Corax on Baal, but I'm still not sure about "ze tvist", so it'll stay in the pot for a while longer.

[Ace Debonair]

Had a read. I like the idea. I think it needs more focus on Fulgrim's obsession. At the moment it could kind of be any of them (which is the problem as their Worlds were a massive part of what shaped them, which is the whole point of this) That is (the main?) one of his defining characteristics I think, the obsessive drive to perfection. How did his obsession over killing the Wyrm affect him. Did he become withdrawn, guilt ridden, bitter with failure. Or did it just highlight his focus and determination. Also what about the idea of him replacing a health arm with a bionic to give him extra strength to driver the spear home? I like the bit about his silver spear.

There is of course the other way in that he tries and tries and tries but keeps failing. Then the Emperor kills it for him

Hmm. Thinking about it some more, just the simple fact of repeated failure could be one hell of a motivator, especially for someone who wants to do everything perfectly. I could see Medusan Fulgrim getting more and more obsessive, determined and insular each time he is beaten back.

In fact, let me just go work on that.

Take 4! New bits will be in orange.

-=-=-=-=

Landing in the side of a mountain on the Planet Medusa, the pod's impact heralded more than the arrival of a Primarch. The infant, exploring the great cavern his pod has crashed into, awoke a great bio-mechanical beast. The creature erputed from the mountainside and within hours had destroyed one of the great clan-caravans that travelled Medusa's surface. The boy, horrified, gave chase, but only arrived in time to survey the carnage. One dying man called the beast Asirnoth the Silver Wyrm, and the boy swore to destroy it, to make amends for unleashing the creature.

The boy-Primarch grew at a rate well beyond that of a normal human. He travelled the planet alone, studying the great beast for any sign of a weakness and warning off clans from crossing its' path. In time they came to call him Fulgrim, after the dragonslayer of ancient myth. In time, Fulgrim felt he had found a weakness in the creature - a barely noticeable gap in the armour on it's throat. Returning to his incubation pod and the strange metal chamber in which it lay, Fulgrim was able to fashion a spear with which to slay the beast.

Fulgrim's plan was simple. He attacked the beast while it slumbered, perched atop a great mountain. Using his superhuman strength and quickness, he managed to strike the beast in the throat several times, but to no avail. The battle raged for hours, but Asirnoth threw itself into a frenzied attack that Fulgrim could not guard against. The Silver Wyrm crushed the Primarch against a rock, destroying his left leg utterly. As it reared back to strike a killing blow, Fulgrim, in desperation, threw himself into the depths of a narrow crevasse.

When Fulgrim came to, he found himself in the care of one of the clans. His mutilated leg had been severed, the wound cleaned and dressed. Fulgrim was furious with himself at his failure to slay the Wyrm. He grew pensive and dour, reliving his defeat in his mind with every waking hour. When he was well enough to walk, Fulgrim approached the clan's smithy, and commandeered the forge. From burnished steel he fashioned a mechanical facsimile of a leg, and underwent the painful surgeries required to attach it in place of his lost limb. Within days, the Primarch marched out again to engage Asirnoth in battle. This time it was Fulgrim's spear which broke upon the creature's steel hide, leaving him with no way to fight it and forcing him to retreat.

A dozen times the Primarch and the monster would clash. Each time Fulgrim would seem to be on the brink of victory, only to fall short. In between combats Asirnoth would attack more of the clans, destroying and feasting upon them, their screams and pleas for help unheard.

Fulgrim became utterly consumed with one goal - the death of the monster he could not surpass. He fashioned weapon after weapon, trained himself harder and harder, devised strategy after strategy, motivated by the stinging, inescapable memories of his defeats. At night, Fulgrim was sure he could hear the mocking laughter of the Silver Wyrm. The few clans that remained began to trade stories of a gaunt, hollow-eyed man who would mutter to himself and scavenge from the ruins of the mining haulers and dead clansmen.

When the Emperor came to Medusa, he was not met by a single living soul. Sensing the presence of his son, however, the Emperor pressed onwards until he found Fulgrim, hunched over a crude grindstone, sharpening one of several swords that lay by his side.

The Emperor spoke to his son of the Great Crusade, distant Terra, and Fulgrim's place in His vision of united humanity. Fulgrim, however, only had one thing to say in response.

"Not until my work is done here. Then I'll worry about your work out there."

The Emperor offered His help in striking down the creature, but Fulgrim declined forcefully. This was to be his fight, alone.

Fulgrim went that very night to battle Asirnoth for the last time. Armed with a dozen weapons, Fulgrim marched on a place known as The Land of Shadows, where the Silver Wyrm made its' lair. The battle raged for almost a day. Fulgrim opened a score of wounds on the great monster, but for each wound inflicted on the creature Fulgrim sustained an injury of his own. Eventually, however, the Primarch, with a surge of desperate strength, was able to drive his spear through the Silver Wyrm's neck, and toppled the beast into a river of magma, pinning it there with his spear until it was utterly destroyed. When Fulgrim withdrew his spear from the fire-river, it was coated in a peerless silver that shone like the heart of a star.

Stumbling back to his Father, Fulgrim agreed to join the Emperor and take part in the Great Crusade. The Emperor's men gathered the few surviving clans, and they willingly pledged themselves to the Imperium, The Emperor, and Fulgrim Dragonslayer, their legend reborn.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I think that's better, but then I'm a useless judge of my own stuff.

Second (or third, or fourth) opinions are more than welcome.

Don't be afraid to tell me if it stinks, I'm a Liberite and am long since resigned to re-writing everything a dozen times. Whatever it takes to make Medusan Fulgrim Best Fulgrim!

[Conn Eremon]

Man, Medusa came close to failing in that one. I would assume that there are far less Clans in the Iron Third than in the canon Tenth. Fitting, though, as the III are still decimated and low in numbers upon finding their lord. I like it.

 

You know, in comparison your Fulgrim is a weakling. Asirnoth was running from the Khan, and he just straight bullied it to death. Course, mine sounds legendary, like his 40k sons talking about it. Yours sounds like a true 30k account.

[Hyaenidae]

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[godking]

 

i'm curious, master Heathens, how come Dorn suffered the same mental damage as Curze?

 

or was that Curze, but they found him on Inwit?

 

It was Dorn, for real-ski's. The thought in my head was the imprint that the emperor cast into his flesh, the noble and honourable soul we know, the very nature of Dorn, won out in the hell of Nostromo, the nurture aspect,  but in the worst possible ways. I intentionally placed him on the one world that he would never be able to cast his image upon the people, and the people made sport out of this honest, loyal, noble young boy (the scars upon scars, slave contract tattooed into his skin) They broke his body, and his mind, and when he finally grew into adulthood, they mocked his teachings because it still amused them. Eventually, his mind and spirit snapped, and he became the monster he was in our realities Iron Cage, but without brothers to check him; I think he wanted to die, but he had too much pride to do it himself, and those he killed could not fight against him. Insanity + a moral code +a world of sinners = death on an epic scale.

Very unlikely scenario.

 

Nobody is enslaving a non brain damaged Primarch for long.

 

There where still rulers and laws on Nocturne Dorn takes over a city the moment he is able to and eventually conquers the planet of sinners whether they want to  or not.

 

And unlike Curze Dorn has the ability to actually build a society rather then relying on fear alone.

[Wade Garrett]

Now I'm imagining a Fulgrim who landed on the posioned world of Barbarus without Mortarion's super resilience...

 

Ferrous Mordax considered his swaying brother thoughtfully as Terra burned around them. A wealth of biological data scrolled across his "vision" in conjunction with the warning locks highlighting the plasma pistol pointed Lord of Nuceria's general direction.

 

"Internal bleeding, sepsis, fever, failure of no fewer than six major organs...It is an impressive feat of will that you remain standing. But it is also a pointless one. You are experiencing doubled vision at the very least...lower the weapon and I will make your end relatively painless."

 

Fulgrim's glazed eyes narrowed, the waxy skin at the corner of his mouth pulled upwards in a feeble attempt at a devil may care smile, and suddenly he held TWO pistols, fixed unwaveringly on the breastplate containing the last of Ferrous's organic components. The draw was a single motion, executed with perfect economy, too fast for even the auspex scanners wired to the Devourers brain to detect before it was completed.

 

"Fortunately, I have a gun for each of you." Fulgrim sneered as he squeezed both triggers.

[Hyaenidae]

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