Book 2: Massacre - any more info?

[Verity]

Can't speak for anyone else, but my mate had bought mine at Games Day for me, as I couldn't attend.

 

Whilst I accuse (and I use the word lightly) absolutely nobody of this, it is known that the entire book is already floating about on various sites.

[GhostMalone]

Need a damn timeline of events from beginning of crusade to the end if the heresy. I thought nostramo would have been destroyed pre istvaan like doing it before heading there.... Makes no sense to do it while still loyal needing recruits during the crusade

[Gree]

What was the Legion strength of the Night Lords and Salamanders then?

[Kol Saresk]

Need a damn timeline of events from beginning of crusade to the end if the heresy. I thought nostramo would have been destroyed pre istvaan like doing it before heading there.... Makes no sense to do it while still loyal needing recruits during the crusade

But at the same time, it provides a reasoning for why it was such a big deal that the Night Lords had been summoned to Terra but still had time between that and Istvaan V to actually ignore said summons. Granted, twenty years is quite a bit.

 

@Gree; From what I've heard, they are estimated to have 90,000 to 120,000 at Istvaan V, but these may not have been the totality of their numbers because they were recruiting from subjugated worlds, were considered to be on par with the more numerous Legions(which were in the range of 150,000 + or -, leaning towards +) and it was possible that there were other contingents spread throughout the galaxy that may not have been counted.

 

From what I've heard. So treat it as hearsay until someone with a firsthand reading can confirm.

[AfroCampbell]

does anybody have a painted Night Lords heresy army anywhere online that I can look at? Im thinking with those raptors coming out.... hmm

[Kol Saresk]

This is the only one that I personally know of:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273183-horus-heresy-night-lords-fear-of-the-dark/

[depthcharge12]

There's also one by Caldaron which is awesome.

 

 

I keep pestering him about relinquishing his color formula but he wont reply :P

[GhostMalone]

Hey DC guess what that link above your post :D

 

That's caldarons link!!

 

Ha!

[depthcharge12]

Lol *facepalm*

 

I thought that was the guy who does the true scale night lords

 

D'oh

[Verity]

Anyone got any ideas on what "ALL DATA REDACTED" for both involved Legions and event could be, the same year as the Massacre?

 

Also - re: Night Lords strength and recruiting after the death of Nostramo...Towards the end of the Crusade, presumably after the destruction of Nostramo, they were doing whatever the hell they wanted and edging on the verge of renegade status, with little regard for the hierarchy of the Crusade. They are estimated to have numbered 90000-120000. Apparently they recruited from subjugated worlds towards the end, sometimes "stealing away the youth of entire systems as the base from which to winnow suitable aspirants. The use of rapid psycho-conditioning and accelerated gene-seed implantation was also known to be widely practiced by the Night Lords, further supporting suggestions that their numbers were at least on par with many of the more numerous Legions."

 

They aren't believed to have had all their forces in the Isstvan system - many elements are believed to have been doing their own thing in unconquered parts of the Galaxy.

 

Salamanders stood at 89000 towards the end of the Great Crusade.

[Emperor's Furor]

What was the Legion strength of the Night Lords and Salamanders then?

89,000 Legiones by the end of the crusade, after the massacre, between 2000 and 3000.

[Kol Saresk]

Anyone got any ideas on what "ALL DATA REDACTED" for both involved Legions and event could be, the same year as the Massacre?

 

Also - re: Night Lords strength and recruiting after the death of Nostramo...Towards the end of the Crusade, presumably after the destruction of Nostramo, they were doing whatever the hell they wanted and edging on the verge of renegade status, with little regard for the hierarchy of the Crusade. They are estimated to have numbered 90000-120000. Apparently they recruited from subjugated worlds towards the end, sometimes "stealing away the youth of entire systems as the base from which to winnow suitable aspirants. The use of rapid psycho-conditioning and accelerated gene-seed implantation was also known to be widely practiced by the Night Lords, further supporting suggestions that their numbers were at least on par with many of the more numerous Legions."

 

They aren't believed to have had all their forces in the Isstvan system - many elements are believed to have been doing their own thing in unconquered parts of the Galaxy.

 

Salamanders stood at 89000 towards the end of the Great Crusade.

Wait, at least as on par with the higher tier Legions? Well crap.

[Anvilarium]

 

Anyone got any ideas on what "ALL DATA REDACTED" for both involved Legions and event could be, the same year as the Massacre?

 

Also - re: Night Lords strength and recruiting after the death of Nostramo...Towards the end of the Crusade, presumably after the destruction of Nostramo, they were doing whatever the hell they wanted and edging on the verge of renegade status, with little regard for the hierarchy of the Crusade. They are estimated to have numbered 90000-120000. Apparently they recruited from subjugated worlds towards the end, sometimes "stealing away the youth of entire systems as the base from which to winnow suitable aspirants. The use of rapid psycho-conditioning and accelerated gene-seed implantation was also known to be widely practiced by the Night Lords, further supporting suggestions that their numbers were at least on par with many of the more numerous Legions."

 

They aren't believed to have had all their forces in the Isstvan system - many elements are believed to have been doing their own thing in unconquered parts of the Galaxy.

 

Salamanders stood at 89000 towards the end of the Great Crusade.

Wait, at least as on par with the higher tier Legions? Well crap.

 

Not really higher-tier. The Iron Hands numbered 113,000 prior to Isstvan V, and they were only considered to be a 'mid-sized' Legion.

[Balthamal]

Depends how you define higher tier. So far it's only explicitly stated that the Ultramarines and Word Bearers cleared the 200,000 bracket. The Thousand Sons were considered the smallest around the 15,000 mark.

[Augustus]

150,000 is high? While the Word Bearers and Ultramarines were outliers?

[Anvilarium]

Depends how you define higher tier. So far it's only explicitly stated that the Ultramarines and Word Bearers cleared the 200,000 bracket. The Thousand Sons were considered the smallest around the 15,000 mark.

 

Agreed - however my previous post about the 113,000-strong Iron Hands being considered mid-tier was straight from Massacre.

[Conn Eremon]

Since the Sons of Horus and World Eaters at the about 150k mark were referred to as upper tier, and the Death Guard at I think 90-something were also mid, I'd take it as meaning that those "well over a hundred thou" are considered high tier. Those who breach two hundred are in a league of their own.

[Emperor's Furor]

It states in the article that even at the end of the great crusade the salamanders were still one of the smallest legions. Out of all the loyalists they probably suffered the most, 95% of them got wiped out.

[Balthamal]

Depends how you define higher tier. So far it's only explicitly stated that the Ultramarines and Word Bearers cleared the 200,000 bracket. The Thousand Sons were considered the smallest around the 15,000 mark.

Agreed - however my previous post about the 113,000-strong Iron Hands being considered mid-tier was straight from Massacre.

That being the case then I think it fair to consider that 80-130k would be a fair bracket in terms of mid tier legion sizes. Anything above that and you're talking about Legions with serious head count problems :)

Have you got a quote from that Cormac? Personally given most Legion sizes hover around the 120k mark, I'd venture anything below 70k would be considered small in Legion terms whilst anything above 140k would be considered large. Breaching the 200k barrier is just obsession

[Conn Eremon]

On my phone, so forgive my inability or unwillingness to directly quote, it's a hassle.

 

Betrayal pgs 79 and 97 (heh) have the Sons of Horus and World Eaters at 130,000 - 170,000 and 150,000 respectively. The Sons of Horus are said to be in the upper quarter (so top four, five Legions). World Eaters are in the higher mid, the mid part I hadn't remembered, but are suspected of being higher. Which would also put them with the Sons of Horus, right?

 

Since we know the Word Bearers and Ultramarines are obviously also in the upper quarter, that leaves potentially one more Legion at 150k or greater. I'd guess the Fists, maybe one of the Angels.

[Balthamal]

Well played :)

 

I can't remember the number for the Blood Angels but I know it's over 100k. It's in Fear to Tread no doubt

[Kol Saresk]

Urza, on 17 Oct 2013 - 06:43, said:

Kol_Saresk, on 17 Oct 2013 - 06:10, said:

Verity, on 17 Oct 2013 - 05:32, said:

Anyone got any ideas on what "ALL DATA REDACTED" for both involved Legions and event could be, the same year as the Massacre?

 

Also - re: Night Lords strength and recruiting after the death of Nostramo...Towards the end of the Crusade, presumably after the destruction of Nostramo, they were doing whatever the hell they wanted and edging on the verge of renegade status, with little regard for the hierarchy of the Crusade. They are estimated to have numbered 90000-120000. Apparently they recruited from subjugated worlds towards the end, sometimes "stealing away the youth of entire systems as the base from which to winnow suitable aspirants. The use of rapid psycho-conditioning and accelerated gene-seed implantation was also known to be widely practiced by the Night Lords, further supporting suggestions that their numbers were at least on par with many of the more numerous Legions."

 

They aren't believed to have had all their forces in the Isstvan system - many elements are believed to have been doing their own thing in unconquered parts of the Galaxy.

 

Salamanders stood at 89000 towards the end of the Great Crusade.

Wait, at least as on par with the higher tier Legions? Well crap.

 

 

Not really higher-tier. The Iron Hands numbered 113,000 prior to Isstvan V, and they were only considered to be a 'mid-sized' Legion.

 

 

Emphasis mine. If, that bit is accurate, than that would suggest that there were enough roaming forces to put the Night Lords at the 150,000 mark, since that seems a reasonable point as the World Eaters were at the higher mid tier(or "more numerous").

 

 

The "well crap" wasn't "oh, crud". It was more like "Holy cow" because I was thinking that 120,000 was high up there. And then we get told there could be 30,000(if 120,000) to 60,000(if starting at 90,000) Night Lords just roaming the galaxy at large, with all of them having the potential to be kidnapping kids and force pumping out Astartes as fast as possible. That creates a definitely possibility with the holes in the numbers. Not to mention, it has the potential to make the events of Prince of Crows look very high in the casualty numbers(20-25% of 150,000 is higher than 90,000 after all) or possibly not as devastating as the Night Lords themselves thought it was.

 

"Oh, we lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 24,000 to 30,000 troops! That's a quarter of the Legion!"

 

"Relax. Captain Bob just came back. Apparently he's been rampaging through the Ghoul Stars since we blew up Nostramo. And he has 35,000 Night Lords with him."

 

http://i.qkme.me/3u6ech.jpg

 

Although, a Night Lord named Bob would be rather..... strange.

 

Of course, it's also fair to point out that there may have only been 100 Night Lords in the Heresy, but due to the accelerated and high volume recruitment, they were able to maintain their numbers through out the overall Crusade, giving the appearance there were always more just hiding somewhere else. Thus rendering the speculation moot and pointless.

[depthcharge12]

I think pre Isstvaan a list is sorta forming in my mind:

 

 

1.) Ultras (duh)

 

2.) Word Bearers (hot on the heels of ultras)

 

3.) World Eaters (I put them above SoH because betrayal mentions that they have such crazy rates that Horus wouldn't be able to keep track of)

 

3.) Dark Angels (they seem to send out troops from caliban like its going out of style :P )

 

4.) Sons of Horus (really variable but up there)

 

5.) Night Lords

 

6.) Iron Hands

 

7.) Death Gaurd

 

etc. we have yet to see and emperors children and thousand sons are small like sallies and raven gaurd. SW are mid-low tier iirc

[Conn Eremon]

Sons of Horus should be higher. Betrayal thinks that the 170k mark is the more believable, even if it does provide a range down to 130k to be on the safe side.

[Kol Saresk]

I think pre Isstvaan a list is sorta forming in my mind:

1.) Ultras (duh)

2.) Word Bearers (hot on the heels of ultras)

3.) World Eaters (I put them above SoH because betrayal mentions that they have such crazy rates that Horus wouldn't be able to keep track of)

3.) Dark Angels (they seem to send out troops from caliban like its going out of style )

4.) Sons of Horus (really variable but up there)

5.) Night Lords

6.) Iron Hands

7.) Death Gaurd

etc. we have yet to see and emperors children and thousand sons are small like sallies and raven gaurd. SW are mid-low tier iirc

If I recall A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns correctly, the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves were relatively equal in strength with only ~10,000 Marines, with the KSons being 10,000. So from what I've gathered, it would be a bit more like this:

1.) Ultramarines(250,000)

2.) Word Bearers(150,000 seen at the time of Istvaan V; known to be much lower than actual)

3.) Sons of Horus(170,000)

4.) World Eaters(150,000)

5.) Blood Angels(120,000)

6.) Night Lords(~120,000; possibly[really have to stress this word] more)

7.) Iron Hands(113,000)

8.) Emperor's Children(110,000)

9.) Imperial Fists(100,000)

10.) Death Guard(95,000)

11.) Salamanders(89,000)

12.) Raven Guard(80,000)

13.) Space Wolves(~10,000)

14.) Thousand Sons(10,000)