Book 2: Massacre - any more info?

[DuskRaider]

Some of the Legions; such as Death Guard, World Eaters, and Iron Warriors; are hard to put an exact number on due to high attrition rates. All three are known to recruit heavily and have their Legion strength ebb and flow. I would imagine these three would have very swelled numbers at their strongest, but are also capable of dipping extremely low after major battles.

[Conn Eremon]

That's true, but it also sounds like the Legions were at their all-time highs when Isstvan III occurs.

 

It's amazing really. Looking at the numbers and losses at Isstvan III, it almost sounds like the Isstvan system hurt the Traitors worse than it did the Loyalists, just spread across more Legions. I mean, Isstvan III cost the Sons of Horus a full third to one half of their force. Add their losses at Isstvan V, less though they may be, and the Sons might only be leaving with 50k.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, these numbers are what is guesstimated by official sources(as far as I can gather) At the time of Istvaan III(SoH, DG, EC, WE), Istvaan V(IH, NL, RG, Sal, WB), Phall(IF), Signus(BA), Calth(UM) and Prospero(SW, TS).

 

EDIT: Cormac is right too. The EC alone lost over half their forces, leaving Istvaan III with only 50,000 troops. That's just 100,000 troops between them and SoH. And that's before whatever they lose at Istvaan V.

[Sevatar]

I'm pretty sure the SW had larger than 10,000. There is a remark made to it in Prospero Burns that they have roughly 10 times the numbers of the Thousand Sons. 

 

One question: The Iron Hands were (unofficially) called the Storm Walkers? Did they have a different colour scheme?

Because I've noticed that the Salamanders did (as in, beyond the original grey) in the Early Crusade.

 

Thanks.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, I think that their numbers are honestly way too low. Just look at World Eaters. With their losses from the Isstvan battles alone (not even taking into account the Ultramar campaign), how are they able to muster at Terra?

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I think that their numbers are honestly way too low. Just look at World Eaters. With their losses from the Isstvan battles alone (not even taking into account the Ultramar campaign), how are they able to muster at Terra?

Yeah, I honestly think that the Legions had to keep recruiting during this time. Some of them just after Istvaan V would need some serious recuperation to take on the White Scars, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels(plus whatever Titan Legios, Skitarii, Other Mechanicum Forces, PDF Regiments, Army Units and only the Emperor knows what else) were all stationed there. And recruiting during war time actually wouldn't be that difficult honestly. They've only been doing it throughout the entire Crusade. And most of the Loyalist forces aren't in a position to strike out against their worlds, so it's almost a guarantee that they would at least have access to recruitment sources. And with a decent portion of Forgeworlds joining in plus who knows how much surplus in gear, it wouldn't be as much of a logistical nightmare as the Ultramarines are having with every one of their worlds under the threat of attack.

[Verity]

What sort of timespan does the whole recruitment to Astartes process cover?

[Kol Saresk]

What sort of timespan does the whole recruitment to Astartes process cover?

It depends. In 40K, we saw something like years. In Deliverance Lost, the accelerated recruitment took weeks, if not days. IIRC, a few months is the fastest it can be "safely"(word is relative there) done. So then it becomes a matter of how many recruits you are getting plus gene-seed available and all that. Ideally, if the survival rate was 10%, and if you pulled 100,000 recruits spread out from 10 worlds, then in say, a year, you just gained ten thousand fresh Astartes. Of course, this is all speculation based on my impression from the books plus hearsay.

I'm pretty sure the SW had larger than 10,000. There is a remark made to it in Prospero Burns that they have roughly 10 times the numbers of the Thousand Sons. 

 

One question: The Iron Hands were (unofficially) called the Storm Walkers? Did they have a different colour scheme?

Because I've noticed that the Salamanders did (as in, beyond the original grey) in the Early Crusade.

 

Thanks.

Okay, a little different from what I've heard of them being relative equal(hence the " ~ ") to the Thousand Sons. Could you point me to a page?

[A D-B]

I think pre Isstvaan a list is sorta forming in my mind:

1.) Ultras (duh)

2.) Word Bearers (hot on the heels of ultras)

3.) World Eaters (I put them above SoH because betrayal mentions that they have such crazy rates that Horus wouldn't be able to keep track of)

3.) Dark Angels (they seem to send out troops from caliban like its going out of style )

4.) Sons of Horus (really variable but up there)

5.) Night Lords

6.) Iron Hands

7.) Death Gaurd

etc. we have yet to see and emperors children and thousand sons are small like sallies and raven gaurd. SW are mid-low tier iirc

If I recall A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns correctly, the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves were relatively equal in strength with only ~10,000 Marines, with the KSons being 10,000. So from what I've gathered, it would be a bit more like this:

1.) Ultramarines(250,000)

2.) Word Bearers(150,000 seen at the time of Istvaan V; known to be much lower than actual)

3.) Sons of Horus(170,000)

4.) World Eaters(150,000)

5.) Blood Angels(120,000)

6.) Night Lords(~120,000; possibly[really have to stress this word] more)

7.) Iron Hands(113,000)

8.) Emperor's Children(110,000)

9.) Imperial Fists(100,000)

10.) Death Guard(95,000)

11.) Salamanders(89,000)

12.) Raven Guard(80,000)

13.) Space Wolves(~10,000)

14.) Thousand Sons(10,000)

Remember, A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns were before the Legion sizes were confirmed at being about ten times the size mentioned in several books. The marking point was The First Heretic, but Prospero Burns was delayed due to scheduling reasons. Graham and Dan were working from different figures before then, so their Legions are noted as being very small.

[Kol Saresk]

Ah. So when Prospero Burns says that the Space Wolves were circa 100,000, then it isn't that they severely outclassed the Thousand Sons, but that the Thousand Sons would also be getting a recon so both would be of equal strength as well? Putting both around the same area as the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists.

[DuskRaider]

I'm pretty sure that Space Wolves and Thousand Sons had very low numbers. Not due to attrition or anything, but personal choice it seems.

 

 

 

 

...although remember Space Wolves almost got wiped out by the 12th Legion...

 

 

 

 

 

...that was a joke...

[Kol Saresk]

I'm pretty sure that Space Wolves and Thousand Sons had very low numbers. Not due to attrition or anything, but personal choice it seems.

That and it seems both Legions only recruited from one world IIRC. Which seems to translate to lower numbers than say, the Ultramarines who recruited from dozens, if not hundreds, of worlds. Or the Night Lords who seem to pick up just as many recruits as they leave bodies behind.

[DuskRaider]

Exactly. And in the Thousand Sons case, their troops were highly trained and specialized to harness their particular Psyker talent. Obviously they had rank and file as well (what would become Rubrics), but a large amount of their Astartes were a member of the various cults within the Legion.

[Conn Eremon]

I thought the Thousand Sons had become solely psykers, with the Rubric being retconned to those of lesser talent, but I can't remember the source of that idea, so it might just have been my own. I certainly don't remember any mention of non-psyker Thousand Sons in their book.

[Kol Saresk]

I thought the Thousand Sons had become solely psykers, with the Rubric being retconned to those of lesser talent, but I can't remember the source of that idea, so it might just have been my own. I certainly don't remember any mention of non-psyker Thousand Sons in their book.

Mostly Psykers. Or at least a large portion. The Rubrics are supposed to be those of lesser or no psychic talent, meaning that those who weren't turned into soulless automatons are the strongest psykers of the Legion.

[Emperor's Furor]

On a side note, if the thousand son models are as nice as the Emperor's Children Palatine models and Terminators then I may pick some of them up for sure.

[Conn Eremon]

Pg 121 of Massacre, putting Salamander numbers as:

"89,000 Legiones Astartes, placing them among the smallest overall of the Legions in manpower."

 

 

Sounds to me like the ol' retcon of 100k wasn't talking about averages or upper tiers, like it seemed like many of us thought. If 89k is among the smallest of Legions, like 170k is among the largest, I'd say that means most must lie between a hunnerd, hunnerd n' fifty. World Eaters were upper mid with 150k, so makes sense.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, technically, over two hundred is the largest, but I see what you're getting at. Although that's weird that the Raven Guard are said to be 80,000. Maybe that'll get retconned. Then again, the numbers might just be how many were fielded at Istvaan, leaving at least another ten thousand just out there somewhere.

[Conn Eremon]

It seems to specify their numbers at the end of the Great Crusade, which Isstvan heralds in. The Salamanders, same page, sent in 83k, with the worst estimates stating 98% loss. The other six grand were at home base, or off doing their own thing.

 

I like the Word Bearers, though. 140,000? Bull :cuss . Go out into the front lines and you tell me they only got a hundred and forty grand. The entire :cuss ing Ultramarines are out there, painted in red and grey!

[Kol Saresk]

But doesn't that also say that its clearly a lie as they were fielding too many numbers in too many places and that they're exact numbers are unknown but are considered to possibly be equal tothe XIII?

[lokkorex]

anyone have any idea how many iron warriors there might be?

 

i know in angel exterminatus they say that there are like 12 grand battalions, and that each grand battalion consist of several grand companies, each of which consist of about a thousand astartes.

 

there was mention of something like the 203rd company/grand company, but the numbers in each company varied greatly i think.

[Balthamal]

HH Weekender is on the horizon, hopefully someone who goes can put the question out there

[Conn Eremon]

But doesn't that also say that its clearly a lie as they were fielding too many numbers in too many places and that they're exact numbers are unknown but are considered to possibly be equal tothe XIII?

Yes?

[Greyall]

A minor but fun detail to all Night Lord lovers out there: the 'lightning' on their armour is actual lighting generated by "sophisticated" sub-surface generators or something like that.

 

So it doesn't arc outwards but does change with each pulse.

[DuskRaider]

I always thought it would be cool if the lightning could be used as a CC defense tool and electrocute an attacker (or victim) if overloaded. Give it some other function than appearance, you know?