The Lost and Forgotten: Building the II Legion

[mrun0riginal]

You could use a variation on a jinbaori, the surcoat Samurai officers wore, though that would be a toughie to model retroactively. I would go with a helmet marking, to be honest.

[Athrawes]

I had never considered the Jinbaori, that is a very cool Idea. Because I would have to rework many of the models I have It will probably not appear in the Legion itself, but maybe on the Madrigal Imperial Army forces. Hmmm.

[depthcharge12]

I can't wait to erase your 2nd legion from the annals of Imperial History this summer ;)

 

 

"Never forgive, Never forget"

 

Keep it coming brother

[Son of Carnelian]

Hmm. I love everything here, but I think the bases need a different ring color than plain black. Maybe a darker brown? 

[Kor'Vesh]

This whole log is exceptional. I love the development of your characters and models, and I think you are creating an amazing impression of the II legion.

 

I know it's not really about this, but I can't help wondering what kind of rules you are thinking of using with your force? Such a lovingly created legion deserves it's own legion rules, right of war and exciting special units. I keep having a stupid number of ideas of what you could do, but it feels wrong not to hear your own thoughts first!

 

So what rules will you play with to make these guys the badass interventionist heroes they deserve to be?

[Athrawes]

Honestly I hadn't given a great deal of thought to writing my own rules. The reason being, I really don't want to make the II Legio over powered. I want them to be believable and not attract a lot of derision when I bring them out to game.

 

At the moment I am just using the standard legion list, but was hoping to use thousand sons rules when

they are released. I think rules for magnus and his son will be as close as I can get to representing Icarion and his doomed legion.

 

Thoughts?

[marshal seanisi]

Based on the theme of your army and the background you have given us,  I think using the TS rules when they come out would work perfect.  It keeps with the basic idea of what you are going for.  You can also tweek some of the special character rules to fit your own ideas.

 

If you wanted to bring them to a tournement you could just use them as TS, and for normal gaming utilize the basic TS rules with a few tweaks of your own.

[depthcharge12]

Maybe run them as Word Bearers at the moment because you can essential buy a mastery level I think

[Athrawes]

I can't wait to erase your 2nd legion from the annals of Imperial History this summer

"Never forgive, Never forget"

Keep it coming brother

Volta Magister: "I can't see your future, you must not have one..."

[Kor'Vesh]

Well, I have lots of ideas, but I can certainly understand why you want to keep things simple with the rules. Using the standard legion list, or proxying them for another legions rules is probably a good idea for pick up games. It would be lovely to have some nice, non-op rules to use the list with friends though, and developing these would be a lovely addition to your project (not that it isn't fantastic already!).

It's hard to comment on the idea of Thousands sons being your go to rule set without the rules being out yet - but I'm not sure if I'd want the two forces to work the same way. I see 1Ksons as a legion that would be throwing psychic powers all over the place (at least when they truly unleash) and using all of the available schools. For your Thunder legion, I really envisage them as seers, using divination to guide their actions, intervening at key points in battles, wars and even the crusade itself. Only librarians would access non-divination powers. I would actually try and represent this style of warfare with a much more subtle use of rules and psychic powers than I would envisage with the thousand sons. I agree that Magnus will probably be the best bet for your primarch though, and his rules will be very hard to write yourself without first seeing how FW deal with Magnus!

Of course, that doesn't help you pick a set of existing rules to follow! Weirdly, I might lean towards emperor's children. The crusader rule could represent your troops improved reading of the battle, helping them get where they need to be, and have an edge over fleeing enemies. Sonic shriekers granting the improved initiative would reflect a similar thing in you characters, and I feel your special combat unit could be nicely represented by palatine blades with jump packs. The Maru skara is also a reasonable fit for how I could see the legion working.

So if I were to home brew some rules there would be a few things I might consider.

Legion wide rules (some options, probably not all of them):
Adamantium will - a simple +1 to all deny the witch rolls could be nice, fluffy and not over powered.
Preferred enemy (all - shooting only) - this could be over powered I guess, so I'd limit it to rapid fire weaopns and pistols (and state that it doesn't stop plasma overheating). It represents the general use of divination in the legion, to read the possible flow of battle, and predict enemy movement in the short term, thus improving accuracy. It could be applied just to bolt weapons instead to tone it down (legionaries can only access their powers when using the most familiar of weapons - either bolters or the rapid fire and pistol option), or only activated by a Ld test at the start of a units shooting phase.
Some kind of bonus to reserve rolls would also be nice and tie in with them striking at the right place and time. I'd probably use this as part of a right of war though.

Restrictions:
No destroyers, phosphex or rad - as madrigal's surface is a rad wasteland, I imagine its sons wouldn't be too keen on recreating it.
Can't ally with the first legion (based on your cool story)
Restrictions are hard though - they probably need a more active one to seem fair, and this would need to flow from your own image of the legion.

Special wargear:
Access to teleportation for terminators and your special 'warp jump' assault squad (priced as for the imperial fists, who I believe got rules for this)
Vibro-katana ( you might have called it something better, I forget)- power sword, 2 handed, +1initiative, 5+ invulnerable in close combat. Priced as power sword and combat shield.

I'll leave it there, as I'm going on, and maybe going completely against how you see the army. Plus you may not even want to write such rules! I actually have ideas for the Volta too, and can post them if you are interested. I suppose the important message, is that even if I'm talking rubbish and writing ideas counter to yours, or things that are over powered, your awesome background and models has inspired me to do it! It's a fantastic project, please keep developing it!

Kor'Vesh

 

edited - tweak the preferred enemy idea, as its probably too good without any limitation

[Athrawes]

@Korvesh: Thank you for all the effort you clearly put into possible Legion specific rules for the Thunder Legion. I have to say, a lot of those seems very cool. Funnily enough, I had decided that the legion would have a disdain for rad weaponry because of the state of Madrigal below the cloud line. It seems we are on similar wavelengths. 

 

I think these (prototype) rules might be cool to play test in friendly games, While I am dubious about giving preferred enemy (all) to everyone shooting with a bolter, it is an ingenious way to represent their battle-scrying without actually having to make each squad psykers.

 

If I went this route, I think I would need to give psychic powers upgrade option to praetors and certain characters.

 

I'm also not sure what types of restrictions I should include, I'd always envisioned the legion avoiding armored warfare (instead focusing on boarding assaults, orbital assaults(teleport and drop) and generally a mix of infantry and skimmers) to that end, maybe heavily limiting the amount of tanks usable or even restricting the amount of heavy support slots available to a II legion army.

 

I'd love to hear your ideas on representing the Volta.

[Kor'Vesh]

Well I'm relieved you like my ideas Athrawes! Balancing the rules is certainly difficult though, but I'm glad you think it would be fun to try some of the ideas out. I'd love to hear how they go if you do.

 

You are absolutely right about the psychic upgrade on the Praetor. I suppose you could just use the same rules and points as for the centurion upgrade to a librarian. I'd be inclined to charge 2/5 of the points to access mastery levels, 4/5 of the points for the option of taking a force weapon (this way the more powerful character with a standard librarian loadout is a touch more expensive), and I'd probably only allow them to take two mastery levels. I'm sure that the praetors would some of the most potent psykers, but on a more deadly combat character, and one who is also concerned with leadership, I'd be inclined to tone it down a touch. This would really depend on how you see the balance of warrior/leader/psychic in your legions command structure though.

 

I'm glad you like the idea of using non-psychic powers to represent the legion's psychic abilities. I think this is more elegant in general, and lets you escape critisms of designing OP rules... of course preferred enemy (all) under certain circumstances could be seen as harsh. But I think  the Fists get BS5 with bolt guns, so it is certainly a comparable rule in my eyes. I think you could go Preferred enemy (all) is conferred to any model shooting a bolt gun, bolt pistol, volkite charger or volkite serpenta.
 

If you used this though I do think you need a more ‘active’ restriction. Though limiting units works nicely with your background, your opponent can always argue that you just banned units that you would never have wanted to use anyway. I did have one other idea for a restriction, though it is more clunky. It is inspired again by your background piece on the IInds first battle in the unification wars, essentially extending the idea that the legion have a propensity for lightning strikes and rescue missions. This idea is mixed with
their use of divination powers to carefully plan their battles, identifying the single most important objective for a battle.

 

The Keystone (insert better name here): Before any battle the Thunder legion scry the many possible futures, seeking to identify the key objective to secure victory. Failure to secure this during battle only lends the enemy impetus. Before each battle you must elect one of two Keystone objectives for your force. 1. Eliminate one chosen HQ unit of the enemy army. 2. To secure the 'additional objective'. Record your mission before the battle, but do not show your enemy. At the start of the battle place an 'additional objective' marker at the centre of the table. This objective is treated in exactly the same manner as the ‘relic’ in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. At the end of the battle reveal your Keystone objective. If you have failed to achieve it, the enemy receives an additional victory point.

 

As I said, clunky, and it may not tie in with your vision for the IInd, however, it could be interesting, and it certainly is a handicap to outweigh your legion traits.

 

OK. The Volta.

These guys are awesome, and I may have got over excited with my ideas. I do think however that their lack of combat weapons, mixed with high AP gun means that you can make them quite badass in the shooting phase. Note that I’ve purposely stopped them from being scoring. I don’t know why, but I don’t think these guys are objective takers.

 

Elites choice                                        250 points for 4 Volta and 1 Volta Magister

Stats –  5  4  4  4  1  4  2  8  (Ld 9 for magister)

 

Equipment – Cataphracti armour, two volkite chargers.

 

Dedicated transport – Proteus, Phobos or Spartan

 

Special Rules

• Legiones Astartes (Thunder Legion)
• Gunslinger - this applies specifically to the volkite chargers
• Favoured of Icaryon - May be chosen instead of a Command squad bodyguard for any terminator armour equipped Praetor, or Icaryon himself.
• Seer sight - (Your background here about their psychic sight and ritual removal of the eyes). To represent this in battle The Volta all benefit from the Night Vision special rule. No unit may benefit from either Stealth or Shrouded against attacks from The Volta. The Volta are immune to the Blind special rule if imposed by enemy attacks. Futhermore at the beginning of each turn the Volta must pass a Leadership test using their own Ld value. If passed the Volta may fire over-watch at full BS this game turn. If failed the unit suffers from the Blind special rule until the start of their next turn.

Options

+45 points each for up to 5 additional Volta

The Volta Magister may take a grenade harness for +10 points

 

Let me know what you think!

 

Kor'Vesh

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I read through this in a couple of hours. Really good work, usually I dislike misson legion projects as they are always lost in the warp/secret crusade but this is elegant and fits into the story seamlessly. I am impressed with it all and, with your permission, I would like to add the Legion - in my own mind - to my personal canon universe as the actual II Legion.

[Nomus Sardauk]

Perhaps the Volta can Overwatch deep-striking enemies within 8 inches?

[Coopervisor]

Working my way through this thread and am very impressed!

 

Just a note to the rules for the Volta, give the sergeant an augury scanner, Interceptor would make sense as a rule for them?

[Athrawes]

@Brother-Sergeant Bohemond: I'm pleased you like the II legion enough to insert them into your personal cannon! Please go right ahead and let me know what kinds if cool things you cone up with. As long as it fits the spirit of the legion, I'm perfectly fine with running with them.

 

@Kor'vesh: those are sons sick rules! Thd most interesting thing to me is how the Volta and the preferred enemy with shooting really turns the Thunder Legion into shooting force. It's not something I'm opposed to just, very interesting that I never considered it. The rules for the Volta look wicked, my only thought is that they need a bit of tweaking in the assault phase. My thoughts would be to give their close combat attacks the Deflagrate special rule, to represent them using their volkites in close combat. I'm not sure how ghat would effect their balance but I just don't like the imagery if them basing enemies inelegantly with their pistols in a CC fight. This way they still won't beat dedicated CC units in the assault but could potentially protect Icarion from hordes of tactical and assault squads.

 

Thoughts?

[Nomus Sardauk]

Wait, if the Volta get their own rules does that mean the Oni are too? Cuz I may have a few ideas...

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Hello great sir of this AWESOME tread! I might have a idea for you: it seems like you're doing a chinese/japanese style to your army, how about doing a samurai like unit? The salamanders have their pyroclasts, so Artificer armored guys with a special wepon that is legion specific.

 

So I came up with a idea of samurai guys, so somethig like this:

 

"the ............"

 

ws 5 bs 4 s 5 t4 w 1 I 5 A 2 (3 for sarge) ld 9 SV 2+/6++

 

Special rules:

(the basic astartes stuff)

Unity of psykers: the whole unit counts as a lv 2 psyker, may take psychic power from the divination and telephatie lores.

(Miscasts are done on the sarge)

 

 

Wargear:

....... samurai sword (S user AP 2 Special rules: concussive, invulns must be re-rolled against this weapon)

Samurai armor: (Confers a 2+ and a 6++ invuln safe)

Grenades and do-dats

 

And then like 185 points for the first 5, then 35 points per piece extra (up to 10)

 

 

 

Is this something intresting? (Sorry for hiyjacking your tried BTW!!!)

[Marcelle]

Time for new w.i.p. Icarion's photo. Today a shoulder pad. Horns aren't glued to the skull yet and they need framings.

The second pad is finished and is already getting dry.

Whole model is going to be nearly finished. 

http://marcelle.nazwa.pl/Primarch-Shoulder-Pad.jpg

Short Request:
If you like alredy sculpted Icarion model, please like and share my funpage on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Urmanski-Studio/413836968695489

It'll really help me doing next good scuplts.
Thanks!

[AlphariusOmegon108]

That is looking great! wowzers!

[Kor'Vesh]

@Athrawes - I'm glad you like them. I've got no idea how balanced they are though. In fact, they are VERY hard to point out. In a heresy era environment, I think they are reasonable, as the high armour of enemy marines will mitigate the horrific number of wounds they can put on a unit. However, just imagine what these boys would do to a mob of 30 ork boys... you are looking at 17 dead from one round of shooting. If the orks stick around to charge, and the volta don't go blind, then the orks will evaporate. A tactical squad, on the other hand will probably only take 4 casualties from one round of shooting, 4 more from the overwatch. That still a big hole in a blob squad. I think this kind of fire power is fine, especially in a heresy list, but the fire power on a resilient platform might be a bit much... I already suspect their base cost should be a bit higher... maybe 270.

I really like the idea of deflagrate in combat too... its very evocative! In my design, the idea was that they should be pretty lackluster in combat - the WS 5 makes them tough to hit, and the cataphractii will keep them resilient. My idea was that the Full BS overwatch would really make them a scary unit to charge, but once you got in you could wear them down. You could swap the overwatch for the deflagrate (maybe with S5) in combat, which would also be fun - less psychic, more generalist, and still very cool. Both could work too, but I think their points would have to go up.

The Blind rule also needs testing - do they go blind too often? Do you make them autoblind on the failed Ld test, or do they have to pass an initiative test to avoid it? The blind idea is again fluff, and a nice homebrewed way to mitigate their power. I'd probably let them take the initiative test, (as you fail the Ld about one turn in 5) or up the magister's Ld to 10. But you'd need to see how it actually works.

I think you should play test them a lot, and use a few different iterations. I would always keep the gunslinger, night fight, and removal of stealth and shrouded. I think these are simple fluffy rules, and quite situational. You need to see if PE is too much on them though, and I would probably avoid deflagrate in combat in combination with a built in rule for full BS overwatch... that might be a little too much. You'll know with a few games though, and the combination of rules could be awesome fun. Interceptor is another excellent idea, worth testing on them, and I'd probably tie it in with the Magister.

Out of interest, what do you make of some of my other ideas e.g. restrictions, katana, and choice of legion proxy?

If you didn't want such a shooty force, you could always run a PE (all - combat) rule. This approach felt right to me, but there are loads of ways you could make some rules, and loads of guys with more experience on this board than me to advise you!

I really think the army is excellent, and I'm glad my ideas are sparking more in you - that's the best result for all of us who are enjoying the thread!

 

The new sculpts look awesome. Icaryon is going to be stunning!

[marine7312000]

I think if you were to devise rules for the katana, you'd have to start with Kor'Vesh's idea of a two-handed power sword. I would also keep the +1 to initiative but add the S user and AP 2 from AlphariusOmegon108's writeup. Price them about equal to charnal sabres and you should be good. The weapon would not be an auto include, but would definitely be an option that would be worth choosing.

[depthcharge12]

Gah, what page was that fluff on with the bad blood with the 1st legion? I can't remember why they don't like each other

[Athrawes]

@Depthcharge12: I think this is the one you are looking for:

 

@Kor'Vesh: The Vibro Katana stats look like a cool idea, they act as sword and shield. The keystone idea seems like it could be a fluffy way to give a restriction the Thunder Legion, I might have to think that one over a bit to see If I can come up with a way to handicap the army a bit more.

 

@Marcell: The shoulder pad is looking Impressive, I can't wait to see how it all fits together.

 

Excerpt from "A Grande Historie of the Late Unification. Appendix: Legiones Astartes"

 

By the time the raising of the II Legion was initiated, the 'First Legion' had been in existence for more than a decade, fighting alongside the dwindling regiments of Thunder Warriors at the Emperors side. In those first years of trials and gene augmentation, much of the character of the II Legion was built upon the experiences and guidance of Legion I officers, who planned and oversaw the training regimes of the II Legion. Whilst initially, this was orchestrated in the hopes of building a strong sense of fraternity amongst the earliest of Astartes, it had the unfortunate effect of straining relations between the only two legions in existence at the time.

 

It was during the conquest of the Nord-Merican Techno-Enclaves that this burgeoning rivalry would come to a head and the II Legion would finally establish itself.

 

At the time, the II Legion numbered only a few hundred Astartes which in the opinion of the Emperors advisors from the I Legion command echelon, made them suitable only for support operations while the swelling ranks of the 'First Legion' took on the brunt of the war effort.

The conquest of Nord-Merica was beginning to slow as the I Legion became stretched thin with requests for its assistance. Petitions to aid the conquest by the II Legion command cadre were routinely denied by I Legion officers confidant in their Legions ability to handle the war on their own.

 

News of the great purges being carried out by the Tyrant Nikolai the Mad would forever shape the fate of the II Legion.

It was said the Emperor 'Beloved by all' wept when he was informed of the great holocaust carried out by the Mad Tyrant, for though he wished dearly to enact his will upon the Barbarian Lord, The 'First Legion' was spread to thin to save the Tyrants citizens from death.

The 'First Legion' commanders again refused the II Legion petition to aid them, citing 'unsatisfactory' victory projections. So it was that the commander of the II Legion, moved by the Emperors sorrow, resolved to act in his name and save the citizens-slaves of the Mad Tyrant from their fate.

Plans were quickly drawn and in the middle of the night, 200 Astartes of the II Legion broke into one of the Legion I weapon depots and raided it for supplies. Among these "requisitions" were two I Legion Stormbirds and powered armor for every legionary.

What followed was a daring midnight raid of the Tyrant palace by the II Legion culminating in an epic duel between the Tyrant himself and the then Legion Master Korvost Sahaal. Though casualties amongst the II Legion were high, by dawn the Tyrant along with his lieutenants were slain and his citizen-slaves liberated.

 

Despite their success, all expected the II Legion to receive some measure of censure for what they had done in order to carry out the emperors will. What happened next shocked everyone.

The Emperor, calling together the leaders II Legion stood before them and kneeled proclaiming: "You shall be likened to a thunderbolt, the essence of my wrath, liberators to Humanity."

 

With those words, the Emperor granted the II Legion the Icon of the 'Thunderbolt of Unification' to use as their personal heraldry. From this proclamation, the II Legion took for themselves the name 'Liberators' vowing to forever embody the Emperors will, and to stand second to no legion in defense of humanity.

Though their name and Legion crest would change with the discovery of Icarion, the II Legion would forever bestow the Thunderbolt bisecting a blue shield to legionaries who embody the Emperors ideal for the Great Crusade.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

A couple of things, First tragedy struck in the form of my dog getting hold of the Magister-Sergeant of my Volta. However, this has given me the oppertunity to remake Magister Fulcran Naga, and I think he represents a decent improvement.

 

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/B7E70F9C-978E-4057-9C1E-8B4727F7783B.jpg?t=1399581403

(Fulcran Naga, Magister-Sergeant of Volta Terminator Elite, Assigned as Honor Detail, 9th Company)

 

Finally, Speaking of shoulder pads, I think I'm improving with sculpting the Legion Crest. As much as it would probably be easier to try and cast mold them, I like that every model in the army has something that has been hand sculpted be me. Makes the army seem even more personal.

 

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/5ABAC254-040E-4EEC-A4FA-D59C140AD8ED.jpg?t=1399581624

 

Let me know what you guys think!

[Doghouse]

Looks good mate, I think the sculpted shoulder pads are the way to go.