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The Lost and Forgotten: Building the II Legion

Athrawes

By Athrawes
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b1soul Venerable Brother

b1soul

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I want the Destruction of the II Legion to be that defining moment for the Wolves and Russ. We know that the Emperor asked Russ and his legion to do something at the siege of Madrigal but we don't know what. What if the wolves start to see themselves as His executions not because of what he asked them but as a form of penance or atonement for something they couldn't bring themselves to do.

 

This is a very interesting take. The Emperor asked Russ to do executioner's work once before and Russ shrank from the duty, couldn't bring himself to do it. 

 

Now, it's almost like Russ is overcompensating to redeem himself. Very interesting 

 

 

 

What if Russ was the one that cleaned up the other legion's forces? He was too late to help the 2nd, but he avenged them and killed the other legionary forces that had been there before him to kill the 2nd. 

 

 

The plot thickens. That would rather fit he Wolve's sense of irony. It would make "The Wolves are executioners" as ironic as "There are no Wolves on Fenris". 

 

However, how would Russ get away with it? Surely he'd be sanctioned himself 

 

 

And afterwards, his posturing and his Legion's outlook, was nothing more than a coping mechanism to deal with what he had done.

 

Very nice idea

 

 

Perhaps Russ is poised to strike the killing blow against Icarion, but in a moment of weakness he can't actually bring himself to finish his wayward brother. And then, seeing Russ unable to slay his beloved sibling, Icarion smiles...

 

"Forgive me Leman."

 

...And draws the knife across his throat.

 

 

This is just getting better and better

 

 

that first story is friggin epic. you could make it uber tragic potentially, in holding back the tide, icarion has to bind demonic essences to himself to stop them breaking through. russ makes it to Icarion, and in seeing all the evil he is fighting off russ helps icarion. but to seal it and stop the incursion Icarion has to die and begs Russ to kill him? i want to shed man tears for the 2nd

 

Aye...first version is epic. As for the Emperor's lie, wouldn't the greatest evidence of Icarion's "betrayal" simply be that his world is being torn apart by a Warp rift. I mean, the Emperor could simply say that Icarion has been consorting with Warp powers and is now refusing to submit to the Emperor's judgement. The purged worlds would simply be icing on the cake. 

 

I also think that it would be supremely ironic if  the Emperor chooses two legions to actually enact the destruction of Madrigal, those two legions being the SW and the TSons

Kor'Vesh Veteran

Kor'Vesh

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Your revised ending is much nicer - it has the grandstand finish feel, and still allows your background to impact on Russ, which I really like.

 

I suppose the only areas of worry for me are:

1) How much would the emperor reveal of his plans to Icaryon? - I think you are OK here though, as the fall of the IInd could act to explain the emperor's relucantance to reveal his plans to his sons in the future, and thus feed in to the fall of the 1Ksons, and in many ways the whole heresy.

2) Should Icaryon fight against the destruction  of his planet? I think I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, but as I see it from looking at the tarot, Icaryon is quite humanitatrian in a simialar way to Vulkan. While this might lead him to defend his people, I don't think he'd do this at the risk of humanity as whole. Could you work in the the idea of Icaryon being confronted by a herald of a pantheon again into this story. He could:

        a.  show Icarion glimpses of the role chaos played (at the emperors hands) in making the Primarchs - breaks Icaryon's faith in the Emperor

        b. maybe decieve Icaryon into THINKING there is a way the emperor could save his planet without its destruction

 - with this idea, at the end, Icaryon could realise that he too was decieved like the emperor, and close the warp rift in his last act, while sending the weapon to the emperor as a form of reconciliation.

 

I also like the idea of keeping part a) as it gives the oportunity for Icaryon to warn one of his brothers that the emperor has made a mistake in the birth of the primarchs, and that some will fall and turn against him and humanity. This could form a seed of doubt in one of the loaylist primarchs, which blossoms into regret for their actions against Icaryon at the breakout of the Heresy... This might not really work but hopefully you have a feel for what I'm getting at. For obvious reasons I like the idea of Vulkan being this primarch. I think the two would have respected each other, and had a reasonably close relationship. If the emperor did show the legions that Icaryon had wiped out human worlds, I think Vulkan would feel betrayal, and hatred at the loss of human life. He'd throw the Salamanders against the IInd in this situation. Of course, Vulkan is also reflective enough to second guess his actions, and I can envisage a lovely fluff piece on Vulkan's thoughts as he drops to the surface of Istvaan to confront the traitor's for the second time in his life, remembering Icaryon's words of warning, and wishing the IInd were still here to stand against the new threat....

 

As for other involved legions, I'd keep the thousand sons out of it myself, as I'm not sure their story works so well if they have prior knowledge and experience of deamonic incursions. I'm sure YOU could make it work though! Throwing the Death gaurd in would be nice as an extra explanation of Mortarion's hatred of the wapr and opposition to Magnus.

simison Venerable Brother

simison

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Little late, but I'll say my piece. I am heartened by the direction you've taken, but I prefer option 2.

 

Simply put, the Golden Throne is a one-of-a-kind device that was found and is anchored on Terra. To have another version on Madrigal is to cheapen the device's uniqueness and I don't think it's a good idea. 

 

I am also hesitant about the Emperor allowing Icarion to know about the daemons. Magnus is the greatest Psyker primarch, who speaks with the Emperor while being created, and he is never told even though he is in the greatest danger and greatest position to help. Why does Icarion get the special treatment?

 

Yet, while those merely stretch my suspension of disbelief, the Terminus Decree outright breaks it. I can't imagine Icarion knowing a spell that is probably beyond the 4 Chaos gods and the Emperor (working together, no less). It's just too overpowered. The largest spell I've ever heard is the Ruinstorm, and that only affected the 500 worlds of Ultramar. 

 

The rest, I highly support. The duel with Russ, the siege, Icarion's sacrifice.

Teetengee Venerable Brother

Teetengee

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As far as I understood it, the Golden Throne is the device on Madrigal? Also I think the devils choice of the terminus decree is great, enough to the point that I don't care that it is probably way too powerful.

Athrawes Venerable Brother

Athrawes

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Little late, but I'll say my piece. I am heartened by the direction you've taken, but I prefer option 2.

 

Simply put, the Golden Throne is a one-of-a-kind device that was found and is anchored on Terra. To have another version on Madrigal is to cheapen the device's uniqueness and I don't think it's a good idea. 

 

I am also hesitant about the Emperor allowing Icarion to know about the daemons. Magnus is the greatest Psyker primarch, who speaks with the Emperor while being created, and he is never told even though he is in the greatest danger and greatest position to help. Why does Icarion get the special treatment?

 

Yet, while those merely stretch my suspension of disbelief, the Terminus Decree outright breaks it. I can't imagine Icarion knowing a spell that is probably beyond the 4 Chaos gods and the Emperor (working together, no less). It's just too overpowered. The largest spell I've ever heard is the Ruinstorm, and that only affected the 500 worlds of Ultramar. 

 

The rest, I highly support. The duel with Russ, the siege, Icarion's sacrifice.

 

These are all absolutely valid points. And ones that I have been going back and forth over, but let me at least try to clarify my thinking.

 

First the golden throne isn't one of a kind. I always got the impression that the Akashic reader built in the Novel Mechanicum was implied to be very similar to the Golden throne in several ways. However, my thoughts were that the golden throne was in fact salvaged from madrigal and brought to terra. (that why in the greyknight lore, there is a matching seal on the terminus decree and the golden throne)

 

Second, To me it seemed like a major plot hole that the Emperor never confided in any of his sons about the true threat of chaos. the Emperor knows that chaos is the real threat, so to me, it seemed weird that the being who has such impressive foresight and planning never had plan for dealing with the chaos that bleeds through his imperial truth. It is heavily implied  that each primarch became what the emperor needed them to be . He engineered sons to be siege masters, terror weapons, "executions" psychic warfare specialists, dangerous environment experts, spec ops in the form of the Alpha Legion, so why no specialist legion to deal with chaos. My thoughts were that he created the 2nd primarch so that he wouldn't have to tell the rest. Compared to Magnus who is tempted by gaining power, Icarion abhors the warp in a way similar to the Emperor, Thats why he makes a more logical choice as a "deamon hunter" than someone like Magnus.

 

Finally, the terminus decree. From the Greyknights codex, we know that something called the terminus decree exists, and is linked to somehow to the golden throne. We also know that If the imperium is every about to fall, that the greyknight grandmaster is supposed to use it. 

 

To me there were only a couple of possibilities of what it could do, kill the emperor, or seal away the warp. 

 

I've never been a fan of killing the emperor to save the universe so I stuck a pin in that. Sealing away the warp wouldn't seem logical because if the decree could do that, why wouldn't the Emperor use it at his first chance?

 

Thats why I though about what sorts of consequences such a device might have, such as utterly crippling the Imperium by making travel impossible. In a way, it is similar to the choice given to Alpharius by the Cabal, remove humanity from the picture so that chaos looses, or let humanity live but die a slow death to chaos. 

 

We know that the emperor is basically a god, and that his ultimate goal was to end the treat of chaos. I think that the terminus decree was his ultimate endgame. It is a product of the emperors ageless intellect, something that he has been craft for eons. But it can't be used until humanity has access to something like the webway. Because without the ability to travel between worlds, the Imperium ceases to exist.

 

Icarion didn't design the terminus decree. The Emperor did. When their minds met, and Icarion pleaded with his father for a way to save his world, the Emperor refused and the psychic feedback put Icarion into a coma. Somehow the idea slipped from the Emperors mind to Icarions in that moment, Maybe it was an accident or maybe he did it on purpose, who knows. 

 

In the context of the Grey knight codex it is implied that the Terminus decree is immensely powerful, I just tried to imagine what the Emperor's final sanction at the end of the world might look like and do.

 

(edit) Also, we know that in universe it is at least a theoretically possible solution to the warp as if i recall correctly, the C'tans ultimate goal was to seal up the warp.

 

+++

 

These are my thoughts, I don't know if they help clarify why I wrote what I did.

simison Venerable Brother

simison

Posted
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They do clarify, and they offer bits of lore that I wasn't aware of. I didn't know there was an actual Terminus degree and I had forgotten about the Akashic reader. 

 

But I think the Golden Throne and the Akashic reader are two chairs for different purposes. The Golden Throne seems to be strictly tied to handling the Webway. That's the main function and it only doubles as a life support system as its only other purpose. The Akashic reader is meant to gain vast amounts of data. So, we have one chair for transportation and one chair for information. 

 

Though, this does give me an idea. I don't remember the details about the Akashic reader, but if there are similarities between it and the Golden Throne, then there might be a conceptual basis they share (aka hi-tech chair does cool things). Which opens up a third option: what if the Madrigal throne did something unique than the other two? Perhaps similar, but something unique? 

 

The Throne point isn't that bad, so if you leave it in, that's fine. I'd be pleasantly surprised if you used the third option, but you don't have to. (Especially since I have no idea what the Third Throne could do....must resist Game of Thrones pun....)

 

 

The Emperor silent on Chaos bit.....yeah, it's by far one of the greatest "what the heck were you thinking?" moments about the Emperor. But it's not a plot hole, for better or for worse. (And it's certainly not his only incredibly obvious bad decision). It really seems like he was trying to drain the power of the Chaos powers through the atheistic Imperial Truth. And, well, it was working. He's referred to as the Anathema by the demons so he was making some kind of progress (especially with the vast destruction of chaos temples and followers prior to the Horus Heresy). His plan is to beat them without anyone knowing about the war. It fails, obviously, but there is a logic to it. 

 

But since he has the necessary pull to hide the entire histories of 2 legions, it's possible for him to redirect the 2nd legion to this purpose and keep it hush hush. I don't like it, 'cause it tries to fix one of his mistakes. And one of the running themes of 30k/40k is that whether you're human, transhuman, primarch, or Emperor, there is no immunity to hubris of human flaws. This makes your lore essentially a trade-off. You take a piece of this theme away to give the Emperor some of his reputation as a master planner/strategist back. It works, but I don't think it's necessary.

 

 

I can see where you going with the Terminus Decree, but honestly, I like the 'killing the Emperor' plan better. It's darker and if the Emperor is a perpetual as implied, he's resurrect shortly or one of the other theories could take effect. And if entire race of space gods couldn't get it done, I doubt the Emperor could make a spell that would seal off the warp in any kind of time frame shorter than a century of preparation and energy manipulation. The scales in 40k are certainly larger than other sci-fi series, but I don't think it ever got that big to justify the spell. Close, but not quite. 

 

 

Ultimately, I appreciate hearing the thoughts going into these decisions. The clarify does negate some of the issues I had with them (minus the Terminus Degree). But it is your fluff, and everything is at least internally consistent. So, feel free to continue on that road. Cheers.

Jupiter Forge Venerable Brother

Jupiter Forge

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I'm just ploughing my way through reading all the fluff in the thread and I'm really liking it, and the models; I've always been a big "lets not stick to the released stuff fully" and the two Lost Legions have always been something interesting, and I planned to do my own take on at least one of them at some point, but I always get bogged down with work and other commitments (hence my lack of posting on this board in the last year).

 

But back to you... awesome work I must say. Keeping a closer eye on this for more!

Dragonlover Venerable Brother

Dragonlover

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On the Throne issue, in Faith and Fire by Jim Swallow there's a device very similar to the Golden Throne. I can't remember a damn thing about what it does, although I vaguely remember a star map of some kind.

 

Dragonlover

Athrawes Venerable Brother

Athrawes

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Icarion Primarch of the II Legion

 

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/wip2front.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/wip2side2.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/wip2side.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/wip2rear.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/wip2detail.jpg

Sculpted by Francesco Antonio Pizzo

 

+++++++++++++

 

This is the current status of the Icarion digital sculpt and just wow. I've never commissioned a digital sculpt before but the detail and smoothness blow me away, not only that but I really love his more dynamic pose.

 

Let me know what you think.

Kor'Vesh Veteran

Kor'Vesh

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I think it looks fantastic, and a clear improvement on the original sculpt in pose, proportions and detail.

 

A couple of points:

1. It might be nice to see some blossom on him somewhere, to tie in with your legionaries.

2. I'm not sure why, but I'm not quite feeling the blade... It doesn't feel either sharp enough or look finessed enough. I'm not sure why!

3. Will you make, or could you get added to the sculpt, some form of scenic base? This would tie in with FW primarchs, and let you add some legion specific context.

 

Lovely work though, you must be very pleased and excited!

Slips Venerable Brother

Slips

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I think its because most Naginata's we see have Curved and more slender blades? Whereas this one is rather thick and trapezoidal. It's the only thing that sticks out to me about the blade. The rest of the sculpt looks amazing though!

Athrawes Venerable Brother

Athrawes

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Here is the final version of the Primarch Icarion, I will be doing a limited run of the model which is scaled to the Forgeworld Primarchs so PM if interested in owning a piece of a Lost Legion. 

 

 

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed7.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed4.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed6.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed2-2.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed5.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed3.jpg

 

Among the minor changes are, finishing his feet, giving him psychic artifact to hold in his right hand, and lengthening the spear blade and narrowing it slightly.

 

All done, the model looks better than anything I had hoped for when I set out to design my own Primarch. It has been a unique experience and this is going to be a miniature and memory that I treasure. 

 

As always, let me know what you think.

marine7312000 Venerable Brother

marine7312000

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That is awesome. PM incoming brother. I'm kind of tempted to see about getting one of Greyall's designs cast up by the person you used for this.

 

I think I may have found a use for the Chaos Terminator Lord base I have in one of my bits boxes.

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