codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Scribe]

Heh you still think this is about power? Its all about perception and ego, both in universe and out!

[Kol Saresk]

Heh you still think this is about power? Its all about perception and ego, both in universe and out!

What good is perception when it is skewed and what good is ego when it is hollow?

[Wayniac]

Current rumor is that it's officially labeled as a Supplement, and not a full Codex.

[Scribe]

We are talking about CSM and those who play them right? Will is everything. Perception and Ego are everything. I didnt run up 4 different CSM armies because of power level, and in universe, the concept of pulling away from the Imperium for power reasons is...suspect to say the least.

 

As far as the desire for traits (I wont call it Legions anymore with you) is to reflect the background of the original sinners. The original warriors who turned away, the fallen angels, lost in hell for an age.

 

Its got everything to do with perception and ego, to me anyway both in character and out.

[Excessus]

You are being uncharacteristically aggressive with this subject Kol.

 

I don't get what you are playing at though, I have never said (nor have I seen anyone else say it) that anyone shouldn't be allowed to play their warband as they like. I'm not trying to force someone to play a legion, or even legions as a whole. If they want to play renegades that's perfectly fine. What I want is a distinction between the two, not different power levels, but a distinction between them so I can come and say "I play Alpha Legion" instead of just "I play chaos"...

 

 

Call it loyalist-envy if you like. Even the unwanted child longs for love from it's mother...

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Night Reapers are a Renegade Chapter that uses Fear tactics. The Death Shadows are another Renegade Chapter that use terror tactics. In other words, both Chapters use terror tactics, just like the Night Lords!

"I have a question for you. Why don't you piss drinking little whoresons abase yourselves before warriors of the First Legions?"

-Xarl of First Claw, speaking for a goodly portion of the Chaos community on the subject of Renegades

 

Yep. Don't recall he says that as his Warband is begging for aid from those same Corsairs. That in return for their aid, they fight for the Red Corsairs. And that by the end of the book, they only fight, a single Corsair. Because the rest were killed by a Corsair who betrayed his brethren. Meanwhile, the Corsairs destroy the Covenant of Blood. And badly maul the Echo of Damnation. Because that would give the Red Corsairs every reason to not bend the knee.

This would be when Huron Blackheart sends them to infiltrate Vilamus and gut it from within, admitting that as a warband descended from the VIII Legion, Tenth Company has special skills in guerilla warfare/terrorism that his Renegades do not?

 

Almost as if, due to once belonging to the Night Lords Legion, they had some kind of traits that set them apart from generic spikey Marines?

 

Someone should PM ADB and tell him he needs to rewrite Blood Reaver, so it will be in line with the fluff that says the Legions are irrelevant.

 

Perhaps by having Huron ally with the Night Lords random warband of guys just so he can spam more Heldrakes.

[Smurfalypse]

Wasn't possessed as troop something that BL and WB players wished? Well, so much about 'we don't care about strenght, we just want more fluffy options'.

Chaos community in a nutshell. We just use fluff as an excuse.

And again, BAM. Shoot the guy who disagrees with the Chaos community.

It's funny how I present three examples that say "Showcase the Legions and Renegades who use the same tactics" and instead its being treated like "Shaft the Legions."

Nobody is saying "shaft the renegades"...

...just "don't forget the legions are there too"...

Okay then, what is wrong with a "Lord of Terror" Codex that showcases the Night Lords, Night Reapers and Death Shadows, who all use terror tactics? What would be wrong with a Codex: Khorne that showcases the World Eaters, Sanctified and Blood Disciples? Or a Codex: Slaanesh that shows off Emperor's Children, Violators and Flawless Host?

I understand that this Codex: Crimson Slaughter, will very doubtful be any of these. I understand that. But so far, most of the suggestions I've seen are "Legion rules, then mono-god rules and then worry about the Renegades." Why? Why do that when we can hit all three in a satisfactory compromise by defining them by army types, since that's all the 3.5 Codex did and everyone seemed happy with that?

But hey, forget me for actually trying to think that all of the Chaos community should have rules that allow them to play their warbands their way, not just those who play Legions. Because, you know, those Swords of Khargoth aren't really Berzerkers unless they're World Eaters.

I actually really like the books that would include all the warbands that "act" a certain way in regards to how they tend to wage war. This would 100% be a great thing for CSM in Warhammer 40k and I would probably buy every book.

[Smurfalypse]

So ... possessed as troops.... someone somewhere is laughing hard... 

 

Once again we are to be played as fools. 

 

I love the concept of possessed, hell I secretly wish for a possessed HQ with random goodness but alas as troops unless they are properly delivered and supported the possessed suck hard... but really really hard...

 

Let's wait and see...

 

I own 40 painted and ready to go and another 20 sitting in boxes being used slowly as bits.

Actually been contemplating selling off the painted ones and just getting other things for now and wait on the Possessed until a new codex comes out and makes them usable in casual games at least.

 

I play pretty competitively but I also do games here and there where I use Mutilators (beat the guy who placed 21st at NOVA Open with a Mutilator list vs his NOVA list, we still mock him :P).

 

I guess I will see what this codex is about and then decide whether I can get rid of them for a half decent price or not.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Night Reapers are a Renegade Chapter that uses Fear tactics. The Death Shadows are another Renegade Chapter that use terror tactics. In other words, both Chapters use terror tactics, just like the Night Lords!

"I have a question for you. Why don't you piss drinking little whoresons abase yourselves before warriors of the First Legions?"

-Xarl of First Claw, speaking for a goodly portion of the Chaos community on the subject of Renegades

 

Yep. Don't recall he says that as his Warband is begging for aid from those same Corsairs. That in return for their aid, they fight for the Red Corsairs. And that by the end of the book, they only fight, a single Corsair. Because the rest were killed by a Corsair who betrayed his brethren. Meanwhile, the Corsairs destroy the Covenant of Blood. And badly maul the Echo of Damnation. Because that would give the Red Corsairs every reason to not bend the knee.

This would be when Huron Blackheart sends them to infiltrate Vilamus and gut it from within, admitting that as a warband descended from the VIII Legion, Tenth Company has special skills in guerilla warfare/terrorism that his Renegades do not?

 

Almost as if, due to once belonging to the Night Lords Legion, they had some kind of traits that set them apart from generic spikey Marines?

 

Yeah. Just going to leave that here.

 

We all know the issues at this point, its down to the terminology. Some want a generic naming convention, some just want a focus on legions, with renegades running as 'Codex World Eaters' or whatever, and not 'Codex: We chop stuff'.

 

Its about respect for the history of the game...

[Kol Saresk]

You are being uncharacteristically aggressive with this subject Kol.

I don't get what you are playing at though, I have never said (nor have I seen anyone else say it) that anyone shouldn't be allowed to play their warband as they like. I'm not trying to force someone to play a legion, or even legions as a whole. If they want to play renegades that's perfectly fine. What I want is a distinction between the two, not different power levels, but a distinction between them so I can come and say "I play Alpha Legion" instead of just "I play chaos"...

Call it loyalist-envy if you like. Even the unwanted child longs for love from it's mother...

What I am "playing at" is this.

1.) GW's last attempt at "Legion lists" was 3.5. Considered a resounding success.

2.) Looking Forgeworld's "Legion lists", I think it is pretty obvious that from now on, it is more accurate to refer to 3.5 as "Army Styles named after Legions". Or "Legion Rites of War", if you prefer.

3.) Basically, we know that if GW is ever going to do something, it won't be a "list" and it will barely be a list of traits. After, Night Lords were "Stealth and Night Vision" for traits, and that was more than some "Legions" got.

4.) So since the entire community wants to be able to play the way they want, but a more vocal portion only wants "Legion lists", my proposition/wishlisting/ranting/trolling/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is this: Since GW will never really give us "Legion lists" and we know there are warbands that operate very similarly to Legions, such as my previous examples of Night Lords, Night Reapers and Death Shadows, and we also know that GW doesn't really care about the Legions, after there was the entire Abyssal Crusade which was like three pages and then there was two pages to the Renegades(which also happens to be the number handed over to the fluff of the Legions in this edition), is that we instead group them together by tactics. Basically, make a Codex supplement that supports a specific rite of war. List the Legion and all Renegades who are likely to use this Rite of War. But instead, I get responded with "Shaft the Renegades"(Scribe of Khorne), "Legions are more important"(Wade Garrett) to "Stop saying 'Shaft the Legions Kol!'"(Smurfalypse). You are the only one being somewhat reasonable Excessus.

Wasn't possessed as troop something that BL and WB players wished? Well, so much about 'we don't care about strenght, we just want more fluffy options'.

Chaos community in a nutshell. We just use fluff as an excuse.

And yet you understand Wade's sarcasm so well.

[RolandTHTG]

It will be interesting to see how the Codex shakes out. Reserving judgement until then, but any Beasts of Annihilation players should be pleased.  

On to the secondary discussion here, Kol, I think one reason people are upset at your dismissal is that there is no way to play half the legions or the renegades that imitate them. 
Even leaving mono-god as representing the 4 dedicated forces (Where even then Tzeentch can represent neither TS or newly fallen well);

The only infiltrate/outflank option is an OK option on a character with a random number that you can't even plan for that well. No way to make you own guy to tell his story, you have to run the Pirate with a psychic parrot. 
The siege specialists are ok, in that you can field a decent number of big guns, but get no bonuses over random joe with a vindicator. GW has apparently decided the long rivalry between the Imperial fists and the Iron Warriors firmly in the Fists favor. 
The Deamon specialists no longer get bonuses to bringing in deamons. In fact the synergy has been stripped out of the codex. Our Battle Brothers operate effectively as allies of convenience.
The terror specialist, wither nightlords or the newer renegades you mention, Have NO WAY to show it. The only way to sneak in is to bring the Pirate, the only way to cause fear is to kneel to Nurgle. 

So of the 8 non-Black Legions, even by your standards only 3 are good representations (Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh) of that specialization. There's a some half-hearted versions (Tzeentch, Infiltrate, deamon allied, siege) and one, the one who's followers you are arguing with the most, that can't even be represented in their speciality!  
That is why people want the legions, even in a form as "Codex:Lords of Terror" or "Codex:Masters of Deamons". Because right now, all they got on the tabletop is some pretty paint.

Edit, just saw you post. I see you get it some, but you don't seem to get why they are frustrated.

[ChaosReigns]

I don't mean to be a drama queen, although the following comments are probably going to come off that way. Of course, I fully recognize that we're discussing toy soldiers, but even so they're very expensive toy soldiers. For the price Games Workshop demands for their little plastic men, they should, frankly, be delivering a product of a much higher quality than they have, in my opinion, been providing in the last few years, but especially with the advent of 6th Edition. Of course, I recognize some (most?) will disagree, and that's fine - I'm not claiming to have a monopoly on truth.

With that said...

Seeing this thread, I thought that the Crimson Slaughter book (a codex, no less!) must surely be some sort of oblivious April Fool's joke, albeit one in extraordinarily bad taste. A $50 April Fool's joke, God almighty.

However, it seems that the reality of this "codex" is manifestly evident, because of the proofs accumulated in this thread. Honestly, I'm not really sure what to say, although to be frank I'm absolutely disgusted that Games Workshop, having given the Legions (or else the legacy of the Legions) short shrift for two editions, and team Chaos as a whole for one, would have the temerity to pull this. People were joking about this when the Black Legion supplement came out: "What's next, a Crimson Slaughter supplement?" Actually, yes, as it happens.

The fact that Games Workshop will be simultaneously releasing a new kit for one of the most useless units in the base codex only adds insult to injury, I'm afraid.

Now, who knows? Maybe the rules will be bloody incredible, and grant every Chaos player (and their armies) a new lease on life, as it were. I'm not holding my breath, though. At this point, if this "codex" isn't the most incredible thing to happen to Chaos since 3.5, I'm done - opting out. Writing a letter is worthless, persevering when Games Workshop has produced two subpar codices in a row is exhausting, and switching to another faction, as for myself, seems like rewarding their bad behaviour.

Maybe when (if) Games Workshop ever manages to pull its head out of the sand, things can go back to the way they've been previously. In the interim, someone else can feed this bloated engine's apparently enormous operating costs, if they so desire. For my part, I don't wish to pay exorbitant prices for a lacklustre product.

I hope I'm wrong though. Prove me wrong with Codex: Crimson Slaughter, Games Workshop!

/rant over

[Wayniac]

Sadly all signs are pointing to it being a typical Supplement:

 

Rules/Codex basics:
- 72pp codex
- Full history of the fallen Crimson Sables transformation into the Crimson Slaughter
- Warlord Traits
- Relics
- "Echoes of War" Narrative Missions
- Planetstrike & Cities of Death Strategems
- Crimson Slaughter Army List: Possessed CSMs can be taken as TROOPS

 

So same as every other supplement.  $50 for a page of wargear and a page of additional traits + Possessed as Troops, and everything else fluff and "narrative" nonsense that doesn't address any of the issues.

 

It's time to face facts:  GW doesn't give a damn.  They don't care if things aren't balanced, because they expect everybody to be playing narrative games that tell a story and limit themselves and not even try to win.  They expect you to show up with a Crimson Slaughter army and your opponent go "Oh wow cool!  Hey nice paint job!  Let's do a scenario where the Slaughter are assaulting a world defended by my Imperial Guard!  But I won't take a lot of tanks, because it's a garrison" or the like, or else they think every battle must be part of some campaign so you don't actually try to win.

 

Balance or competitive play isn't even something that registeres to them; it's been painfully obvious that they're giving anyone who doesn't buy into this "forge the narrative" rubbish from old man Jervis the finger.

[Kol Saresk]

It will be interesting to see how the Codex shakes out. Reserving judgement until then, but any Beasts of Annihilation players should be pleased.  

 

On to the secondary discussion here, Kol, I think one reason people are upset at your dismissal is that there is no way to play half the legions or the renegades that imitate them. 

Even leaving mono-god as representing the 4 dedicated forces (Where even then Tzeentch can represent neither TS or newly fallen well);

The only infiltrate/outflank option is an OK option on a character with a random number that you can't even plan for that well. No way to make you own guy to tell his story, you have to run the Pirate with a psychic parrot. 

The siege specialists are ok, in that you can field a decent number of big guns, but get no bonuses over random joe with a vindicator. GW has apparently decided the long rivalry between the Imperial fists and the Iron Warriors firmly in the Fists favor. 

The Deamon specialists no longer get bonuses to bringing in deamons. In fact the synergy has been stripped out of the codex. Our Battle Brothers operate effectively as allies of convenience.

The terror specialist, wither nightlords or the newer renegades you mention, Have NO WAY to show it. The only way to sneak in is to bring the Pirate, the only way to cause fear is to kneel to Nurgle. 

 

So of the 8 non-Black Legions, even by your standards only 3 are good representations (Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh) of that specialization. There's a some half-hearted versions (Tzeentch, Infiltrate, deamon allied, siege) and one, the one who's followers you are arguing with the most, that can't even be represented in their speciality!  

That is why people want the legions, even in a form as "Codex:Lords of Terror" or "Codex:Masters of Deamons". Because right now, all they got on the tabletop is some pretty paint.

 

Edit, just saw you post. I see you get it some, but you don't seem to get why they are frustrated.

I'm not saying use this Codex to do those things. Gods no, that's a horrible idea. I fully agree that things need to be redone. But since it is pretty much obvious "Legions only" is not going to happen, we should at least be accepting of the idea "Legions and Renegades" and that the easiest way to start breaking things, would be to make divergent army Codices. Or at least supplements that radically change the Codex to make those lists possible.

 

As for being frustrated, believe me, I understand that too. When I put Night Lords on the table, I want to point and proudly go "This is my Night Lords army!" and wave a Codex: Chaos Space Marines in the air. But honestly, even if I had been around back in 3.5, you never would have seen me doing that. "Whoopie GW. You made them a Fast Attack list." And yet, everyone is happy with a Fast Attack list being "Terror tactics". So, that is what I suggest. A Fast Attack list to be used for Terror Tactics.

[Wade Garrett]

Kol, all I'm saying is that when you (or ADB) tells me all the fluff says the Legions are irrelevant in modern 40k, and almost every 40k novel on my shelf says they aren't; with Brothers of the Snake (Dark Tusk) and The Emperor's Mercy (Blood Gorgons) being the only ones that feature non Legion warbands; then you need to stop peeing on my boots and telling me it's raining.

[Scribe]

Its about marketing, and those of us who dont want to be ignored as we have felt we have been for over a decade I suppose, see the marketing as wrong.

 

Someone wants to tell me Codex Word Bearers, is going to sell less than Codex Crimson Slaughter? Especially when FW seems to have it right? Just doesnt fly. So call it Codex Word Bearers, and list all the 'possessed loving' and 'daemon loving' warbands within it.

 

This accomplishes both things.

 

1 - Gives Legion fans what they want, if done well.

2 - Gives the added scope and depth Kol seems to be arguing for.

 

Legion only doesnt need to happen, but if you just continue to ignore it, if the last again 10ish years says anything, it doesnt mean we will go away.

[Kol Saresk]

Kol, all I'm saying is that when you (or ADB) tells me all the fluff says the Legions are irrelevant in modern 40k, and almost every 40k novel on my shelf says they aren't; with Brothers of the Snake (Dark Tusk) and The Emperor's Mercy (Blood Gorgons) being the only ones that feature non Legion warbands; then you need to stop peeing on my boots and telling me it's raining.

Don't forget all three of the Salamander books. Or the Legion of Damned battle novella which showcased a total of like eight Renegade Warbands alongside the World Eaters. Don't forget the novel Blood Gorgons. Don't forget Daemonworld which only showed the Violators. Or when the Violators made another reappearance in Soul Hunter aiding the assault on Crythe. And don't forget when we first saw them in Codex 3.5, alongside the Children of Purgatos and other Renegades.

 

The Renegades are out there, a lot. Sometimes alongside Legion warbands, sometimes in place of them. It might just be a sprinkle instead of a hurricane, but it is still raining Wade.

[Scribe]

Legion of the Damned, when the chaff (Renegades) went before the actual Sons of the Blood God.

Yeah I remember that one.

Again, I dont argue that Renegades dont exist, only that they should be served after the Legions and Warbands that are composed of the former members of those Legions.

First among equals, and all that jazz (Not that my Lord would ever recognize an equal, but that goes back to perception and ego).

[Wade Garrett]

Blood Gorgons, Kol?

 

You mean that book where the Sorcerer Muhr wanted to accept Mortarion as his spiritual liege and have his Renegades join the Death Guard as a path to greater power?

[Forté]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vQdanQ_IR1E/UxdX7a9_12I/AAAAAAAAJGc/SW1MpI03IaE/s1600/CScodex.jpg

 

SUPPLEMENT!

[Kol Saresk]

Blood Gorgons, Kol?

 

You mean that book where the Sorcerer Muhr wanted to accept Mortarion as his spiritual liege and have his Renegades join the Death Guard as a path to greater power?

And the same book where the Renegades beat back the Death Guard.

[minigun762]

Please don't use this thread as an excuse to rant about GW's treatment of Chaos. This isn't the Complaint thread 2.0.

 

Keep it on topic or the topic goes away.

[Vesper]

The fluff might be a good read.

[Scribe]

Please don't use this thread as an excuse to rant about GW's treatment of Chaos. This isn't the Complaint thread 2.0.

 

Keep it on topic or the topic goes away.

 

Its all about the supplement no?

 

Open the complaint thread and I'll take it there...

[Ammonius]

That is a cool cover. Here's hoping for a pleasant surprise.