codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Trevak Dal]

I do love those Mandalorian Helmets :D

[Tenebris]

Unfortunately nowadays the only fluff that "matters" is the one that justifies three helldrakes, nine obliterators and a juggylord.

 

On the topic of legions, I dare say that all the above is right and ad the same time wrong. We still speak of Emperor's Children characters, of Thousand Sons sorcerers, of Death Guard marines, we still know that they are there, maybe they have one shoulder pad painted in black, maybe they run errands for some renegade chapter but at their very core, in their very bones those marines are still legion, they know who their father is, they know how the gates of Terra looked and how tough to kill were the loyalist legionnaires of old... they have been there and they have done all that, they spilled blood and murdered their truest brothers.

 

I think that while we mostly focus on Chaos Legion as chapter tactics, traits or veteran skills, I have always considered that to be Legion is a thing of soul, of blood of kinship. You might be thrice the rengeade or a paragon of the ancient virtues but in the end you are legion from boots to ears and you are a tough bastard with countless years of experience to call upon.

All in all what we hope for is perhaps the basest and vile thing a fan can aspire, we hope for vengeance. We want to gut those motherless loyalist runts as the true marines, the sons of the Crusade, as the killers of the Heresy, as the murderers of the Imperium. We want to wear colors of allegiance and blood, and we want on tabletop to enact that most beautiful of sins, vengeance.

 

So why we cry for legion specifics, it is because we still see the renegade, the warband, as scum and dregs of thrice turncoats, as traitors to a father, traitors to their brothers and traitors to the legion. Horus Heresy novels did much to cement us in this view, we gloat on every iota of loyalist blood spilled and we simply want to spill more in M41. 

 

I agree wholly, Chaos is exactly that, chaos, no structure, no creed, no certainty, no order, but it is also individuality, talent, faith, devotion, so the explanation on warbands is straight on centre. Yet ask yourslef the following, what convinced you to play Chaos?

 

While cool models is rather redundant in this edition of dinobots and hellchickens, as for game style again little arguments can be found, I think that the majority of us is part of team Chaos due to a single reason, one or more of the traitor legions. 

 

From here it should be a logical process, the players want legion themed rules, the players should get legion themed rules... alas it is not, hence we will get Crimson Slaughter... 

 

... and I was thinking that someone had some sense in GW... especially in the marketing department...

 

 

The result of all this diatribe... in a Thousand Sons army I cannot afford to play more than two MSU squads of Thousand Sons lest I cripple the whole army and consign myself to a series of defeats... to not even mention that any chance for competitive play is long past its due...

[the jeske]

Believe us gatan, we're happy for you, this is great and we expect you to damn well live up to it

But we are bitter with GW's treatment of the majority of chaos fans

Not me feeling good because others are happy seems un natural to me .

On the other hand , wonder what the rules for dreads are going to be in the book and if they will share the ally matrix csm/BL have.

That is because you are an A**-H**E Jeske <3

that would true only , if I were unhappy about people getting stuff. Not being happy is the natural state of a human , so not being happy about a CS codex seems to be normal.

[Wade Garrett]

With all due respect to Aaron, the notion that the fluff and lore supports the Legions are dead is BUNK.

 

The First War for Armageddon isn't "Angron leads like four World Eaters, and some Black Legion guys, and these traitor Black Templars, and I think those guys might have been Word Bearers once, and that big group over there, that's the furious Oompah-Loompahs warband."

 

Storm of Iron wasn't about seventy different warbands and renegade Chapters in a hundred different clashing color schemes and favored methods of fighting attacking Hydra Cordatus.

 

In Battle for the Fang Magnus isn't leading a ramshackle coalition of Alpha Legion, Red Corsairs, The Damned Company of Lord Kaustos, and traitor Ultramarines.

 

In Wrath of Iron the Iron Hands are fighting the Emperor's Children, not a gaggle of Novamarines who were so fed up with losing to the Tau they decided to snort all the drugs in the Galactic East.

 

In the Night Lords trilogy all the VIII warbands we meet (Tenth Company, Halasker's warband, and the guys Decius addresses at the end) still self identify as Night Lords, they wear the colors, they perform savage terror assaults on helpless targets...

 

Kharnath's rank gymshorts, Blood Gorgons is all about a Cursed Founding Chapter turned traitor, and it has the Death Guard turn up and act in a coordinated manner.

 

If the Black Library wants me to believe the Legions are dead in M41, THEY SHOULD STOP WRITING BOOKS ABOUT THE LEGIONS IN M41.

[Wayniac]

First, unless they retcon the fluff I'm pretty sure the Crimson Slaughter are Undivided; the only thing related to Khorne about them is the curse of seeing the ghosts of the people they killed was granted by Khorne (because they people slain were Khorne cultists), and the fact they slaughter people to stop the aforementioned ghosts.  So without a retcon it's not going to be a Khornate book.

 

Second, having recently read the Dark Vengeance novella, they've kinda grown on me and if I were to play 6th edition and choose Chaos again, I might just choose the Slaughter, so this codex is of interest to me.  However, I also hope beyond hope that they address some of the issues plaguing Chaos in the current meta because as a 2nd and 3rd edition Chaos player I want my army to be about Chaos Space Marines and not spamming daemon engines.   I have my doubts because I recall the days of the 3.0 Codex and how rubbish that was and how it took the 3.5 codex to fix that, so it seems GW has learned nothing in a decade.

 

I almost wonder if they are going to have this be a renegade codex that blurs the like between CSM and SM; according to the fluff the Crimson Slaughter has only been renegade for about 70 years so they should still retain a lot of their old Astartes equipment.

[Sception]

If the Black Library wants me to believe the Legions are dead in M41, THEY SHOULD STOP WRITING BOOKS ABOUT THE LEGIONS IN M41.

 

I really think that's all there is to say on that particular matter.

 

-------------

 

Back to the thread topic, what do we think this Crimson slaughter 'codex' will even look like or entail?  Are they just calling supplements 'codices' now, such that it will be a couple extra rules applied to the parent book, or does being a 'codex' mean it will it be self contained?  And if it will be self contained, are we looking at something like the Legion of the Damned codex, something that could theoretically function as a stand alone force, but seems intended primarily as an allied detachment?  And either way, do they really see interest in such a product warranting a full priced book, when codex Legion of the Damned or Codex Imperial Knights are both weighing in at something at least nominally less pricey than the usual codex fair, on account of their narrower focus?  The whole business continues to strike me as just incredibly odd.  Of course, there's no way to know until it's out, but it still might be more interesting to speculate on the subject than continue arguing about whether legions exist or complaining that this book is being made in the first place (a complaint I share, but that I think everyone has had a chance to voice b this point).

 

 

And what about the rumored attendant model releases?  The new helbrute looks nice but frankly has priced itself right out of my budget at nearly $10us more than the loyalist version for a unit that is both cheap points-wise and decidedly lackluster and inefficient even then, but what about other new models?  Rumors persist that we'll be seeing a further new miniatures release in the following week.  Given the list of repackaged old models already accompanying the dreadnought/crimson slaughter release, there aren't too many possibilities if that rumor proves true.  Havocs have been rumored, and remain a likely contender.  A new clamshell power armored chaos lord has also been rumored by multiple sources, supposedly bits swappabe with other models in the line, so possibly easy to put on a bike, or take havoc bits?  Chosen and cultists remain a possibility, though I haven't heard any buzz for them outside of already defunct rumors.

 

I'm curious about what we'll see, and will be holding off on purchase of the new dread & crimson slaughter rules until we see what else is coming down the line.  Anyone have any especial hopes in that department?  My hopes for a new basic CSM kit have been dashed by the repack, but I've still got my fingers crossed for a multipart chosen kit, even if it seems like something of a long shot at this point.  I don't know about the havocs, my interest there will depend entirely on whether they've got re-designed bodies.  If it's just the current CSM sprue with a new heavy weapon sprue, then I'm not interested, as I've already got a squad of havocs built using those bodies with FW autocannons that I like well enough.  If, however, they're entirely new bodies in the DV style, then I could see myself ditching the current squad, but that seems extremely unlikely, since if they did a new body sprue I don't think they'd be re-releasing the current sprue in the CSM box.  Of course, that's all assuming new havoks even materialize at all, which is still just rumor and guesswork at this point.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

 

Back to the thread topic, what do we think this Crimson slaughter 'codex' will even look like or entail?  Are they just calling supplements 'codices' now, such that it will be a couple extra rules applied to the parent book, or does being a 'codex' mean it will it be self contained?  And if it will be self contained, are we looking at something like the Legion of the Damned codex, something that could theoretically function as a stand alone force, but seems intended primarily as an allied detachment? 

 

The LotD and the Imperial Knights are both called just "codex" and they contained a complete entry for a unit, which I don't believe the previous "codex supplement" releases did, but rather introduced changes to the FOC and special rules and items.

 

So... maybe this Crimson Slaughter book will give us a unit entry of some kind?

[daboarder]

A single unit entry, for 50 bucks, why could I see that actually happening......

 

I was pretty sure the supplements are refered to as "codex" as well aren't they? at least in the promotional WD stuff

[Xenith]

Adding to Wades examples, in the Chaos codex, "several hundred" Emperor's Children attack an Eldar craftworld.

 

More than a half chapter of loyal marines.

 

My main upset at this codex, is that if it is good, I wont be able to afford it.

 

If I need this and the chaos codex to run the army I want to (£60 worth of books...) I may as well have bought Betrayal...but Im waiting til the Thousand Sons are released there.

[Gratan]

A single unit entry, for 50 bucks, why could I see that actually happening......

 

I was pretty sure the supplements are refered to as "codex" as well aren't they? at least in the promotional WD stuff

Not quite. The Supplements are: "Name: A Codex Supplement"

 

Iyanden: A Codex Supplement

Farsight Enclaves: A Codex Supplement

Sentinels of Terra: A Codex Supplement

 

These books all show up in the Army Essentials listing under their Respective armies entry on the GW Website.

 

Codex Imperial Knights got their own entry on the Armies listing. I think if Crimson Slaughter gets its own entry then we'll know if its a full codex or not. If it shows up under Army Essentials under Chaos Marines (like Black Legion) then it will be just a supplement. This is my guess anyway.

[daboarder]

I meant are they called that on the price charts?

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac194/Khyron666/Untitled-3.png

 

End of Line

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

 

The Legions aren't going to get any rules outside of the FW HH books, accept it, please.

 

With respect, no. I'll quote someone from the other thread:

 

And yet no one has come up with a logical counter to the argument that just because the Legions themselves are broken, that the Legionnaires don't continue to fight using the tactics, stratagems, and equipment that they used when they were a single unified whole.  When we, as players, ask for Legion-specific army lists, it's not that we want to build an entire Legion.

 

We want to build a warband worthy of the name of their parent Legion, that operates in the same way as their Legion.

 

I got into the game as an Alpha Legion player during the halcyon days of the 3.5 'dex, and everybody could Infiltrate (side note: don't mention cultists.  The Alphas' signature strategy is to attack simultaneously from multiple directions using misdirection and superior intelligence-gathering beforehand.  Hordes of cultists happen, but it's not "signature.").  I could kinda/sorta run that style of army in the Gavdex because Chosen had it as a native ability.  Now, I rely on a counts-as character and even then it's entirely possible that I'll only be able to infiltrate a single unit rather than multiples.

 

So at this point, the Alpha Legion isn't a real army.  It's a paint scheme, and whatever fluff I come up with for my warband.

 

While I don't believe certain tropes set by the legacy of 3.5 (Alpha Legion are all Infiltrate, all the time), I don't believe the Legions deserve no differentiation from each other to the minor degree a Trait system could provide.

 

Now that would explain how/why this could be a true codex vice just another supplement - but that would be way, way too good to be true!  (I think some players' heads would explode if that truly came to pass, but Khorne would probably be okay with that.)

 

Khorne likes his skulls intact.

 

Some one needs to build a 100% working Defiler (minus the daemonic possession) and march it over to the GW HQ and stomp them all, let them see how weak Chaos is.

 

What do you mean, minus the Daemonic Possession? I'm not going to drive it, and I've got the sacrifices all lined up already!

 

@Scribe of Khorne: "By the way Mods, open up the rant thread. You've got another 3 years till a new CSM book..."

 

Second.

 

[arkagl]

Imperialis with all those new toys with robotics start it off as a normal robot and let it suck the souls of the GW employees to summon the possessed why waste innocent ppl when it can feed on GW itself.

[daboarder]

Third vote for our rant thread to be re-opened please. With the knights and this theres more than enough material

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Imperialis with all those new toys with robotics start it off as a normal robot and let it suck the souls of the GW employees to summon the possessed why waste innocent ppl when it can feed on GW itself.

 

Why... waste... innocent people?

 

You are on the Chaos Ascendant sub-forum.

 

And a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time.

 

[Smurfalypse]

Honestly, I am looking forward to this book. Yeah, it is not the book I would want most but at least it is something for the CSMs to have. We have been left out in the cold this edition so far with very little extra content compared to other books.

 

What I really would enjoy would be a slew of Dataslates for us to build armies that work better with Daemons.

Multiple Forgefiends would be great with a few Heralds of Tzeentch who are able to Prescience them. I would absolutely love this.

Possessed doing something in a Dataslate (god, anything to make them playable).

Terminators. Like the old Apocalypse formation they had that bombarded where they deep striked, would love stuff like this.

 

I dunno, I just want more stuff for CSM we really have not gotten much so far.

[Brother Heinrich]

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q532/mv8830/134954_zps24d47194.jpg

[Scribe]

Thou dost wound me. 

[Hellrender]

The past supplements have all been called:

 

Name X: a codex supplement

 

This is:

 

Codex: Crimson Slaughter. Like any other codex. So IF they suddenly changed the names of supplements, it is not done so before. However, the codex:CS is slightly below the price of a supplement. I personally do not think that it will be as lacklustre as Codex: Inquisition or Codex: Legion of the damned, as the price is a lot higher. However, this is the first time they have made a codex about a specific warband/chapter. It's exciting times, as here they have an opportunity. They could do like they do with supplements, and make it rather lacking, not adding anything beyond  a special rule or 2, maybe some warlord traits or relics. But i believe that would be a mistake on their half, and i hope the realise that too. THEY SHOULD really make a proper codex, even if it's called crimson slaughter, with nice rules, proper unit entries, and one that can stand alone from Codex: CSM. Altough i do really hope that there wont be a line saying: ''Chaos Space Marines belonging to a Legion can't use this book, and should use Codex: Chaos Space Marines instead''. That would be a grave mistake. 

 

but no matter what, we can expect a lot of complaining, even if it's the perfect codex to field (for example) undivided or Khornate marines with. People wont be happy.

[Kol Saresk]

Wade Garrett, on 04 Mar 2014 - 17:28, said:

With all due respect to Aaron, the notion that the fluff and lore supports the Legions are dead is BUNK.

 

The First War for Armageddon isn't "Angron leads like four World Eaters, and some Black Legion guys, and these traitor Black Templars, and I think those guys might have been Word Bearers once, and that big group over there, that's the furious Oompah-Loompahs warband."

Nope, you're right. It was Angron calling out and thousands of World Eaters answering. Afterwards, they all scattered to the wind. Just like they had before. Back to their various names and colours and honours of their new masters.

 

Storm of Iron wasn't about seventy different warbands and renegade Chapters in a hundred different clashing color schemes and favored methods of fighting attacking Hydra Cordatus.

Nope. You're right. It was about a single Grand Company attacking a world on the orders of Abaddon the Despoiler so the Warsmith could achieve daemonhood. The next time we see Honsou, he is fighting with two other Warsmiths because he refuses to give them any of the gene-seed he stole.

 

In Battle for the Fang Magnus isn't leading a ramshackle coalition of Alpha Legion, Red Corsairs, The Damned Company of Lord Kaustos, and traitor Ultramarines.

Nope, you're right. He's leading the few of a small, depleted thing that once called itself a Legion. Who afterwords we don't see operating as a single body.

 

In Wrath of Iron the Iron Hands are fighting the Emperor's Children, not a gaggle of Novamarines who were so fed up with losing to the Tau they decided to snort all the drugs in the Galactic East.

Yep. A whole warband. Definitely a Legion there.

 

In the Night Lords trilogy all the VIII warbands we meet (Tenth Company, Halasker's warband, and the guys Decius addresses at the end) still self identify as Night Lords, they wear the colors, they perform savage terror assaults on helpless targets...

'Many of us have remained Legion brothers down the centuries. Others have splintered from the Legion in all but name, while still others among us have cast aside the colours entirely. I see several warbands now wearing the colours and honors of their own factions, for they've been strong enough to rise from the old ranks and claim mastery over their paths.' Void Stalker, Epilogue, Page 436

 

It's okay, I think the guys he's talking about must have been in a vision. Except for that one silver Raptor. Or the Nighthawks. I'm sure of it.

 

Kharnath's rank gymshorts, Blood Gorgons is all about a Cursed Founding Chapter turned traitor, and it has the Death Guard turn up and act in a coordinated manner.

Don't forget why the Death Guard showed up. They showed up to recruit the Renegades into their ranks.

 

If the Black Library wants me to believe the Legions are dead in M41, THEY SHOULD STOP WRITING BOOKS ABOUT THE LEGIONS IN M41.

And where have they written about the Legions? They've only written about warbands that cling to the names of the Legions. Show me a Legion book in M.41. A Legion book. The closest we get is Dark Creed and even then, most of the book is about the Word Bearers killing each other as much as the Imperials before everyone starts getting slaughtered by Necrons.

 

So show me where there is a Legion. Show me where the nine Legions are the only one who can make mono-god warbands when there are warbands like the Violators, Scourged and the Cleaved running around, are the only ones who use terror tactics when you get the Night Reapers and Death Shadows, are the only attacks who use lightning attacks when you get the Blood Wolves. Show me where there is more justification for the Legions to be grouped individually because of the tactics they use because there are absolutely no Renegades whatsoever who use their tactics. Where is it? I haven't seen in it. I turn every which way and I see Renegades that act just like these things you and the rest of the Chaos community call Legions. The only that's unique are the Iron Warriors and that's because they're the only ones who stick with artillery. Even then, they kill each other.

 

So where is it, this undeniable proof that the Legions stand united and act as one and that there is no one who acts like them when you have Renegades who have turned to the various powers, Renegades who use Fear Tactics, Renegades who Infiltrate and Renegade Raptor Cults?

[Excessus]

You are missing the point Kol. Nobody is saying that only legion warbands can be mono-god, or that there are no mixed warbands or legionnaires that don't operate as they used to. I'm quite certain though that a Night Lords lord would be a lot less proficient at tearing down battlements than his Iron Warrior counterpart, and at the same time I bet both of them would be rather crappy when it comes to summoning daemons compared to the Word Bearers or Thousand Sons. Lets not even start with competing with the Alpha Legion in infiltration tactics.

 

There are still legion warbands out there, they are still roaming about. They don't operate as legions anymore, ie not with a hundred thousand marines coordinated with mortal elements and fleets. But not operating as legions is waaay different than forgetting all the training you had as a novice, all the experience in the crusade and heresy and thereafter. In the Black Legion supplement, Abby still had to barter for all the legions support with their primarchs (with a few exceptions). They still hold sway over their legions, they are not all at the same time at the same place, and are most of the time led by lords on their personal crusades and campaigns...but they are still legionnaires. They still have their tactics in the back of their mind (training and experience is not something you easily forget), they have still the geneseed of their primarch within them.

 

So yes, there are legion warbands out there. Are they made up of only legionnaires from the same legion? Most likely not. Will their tactics change radically because they recruit a handful of marines from another legion? Most likely not...

[Hellrender]

Even though they only are warbands calling themselves after a legion, they still fight like their parent legion.

 

the iron warriors laid siege.

the night lords instilled fear with ambushes.

the thousand sons went all magicky

the world eaters went all berzerk

 

i fully agree. There are no legions anymore, save for maybe the word bearers. Not even any of the loyalists can be defined as a legion. But most warbands or chapters that had a parent legion and still identify themselves with that legion still fight like that legion.

[Scribe]

Not only are you missing the point Kol, but as a part time professional troll myself on many a forum, your missing the point so hard, it seems like you are trying.

[Kol Saresk]

Even though they only are warbands calling themselves after a legion, they still fight like their parent legion.

 

the iron warriors laid siege.

the night lords instilled fear with ambushes.

the thousand sons went all magicky

the world eaters went all berzerk

 

i fully agree. There are no legions anymore, save for maybe the word bearers. Not even any of the loyalists can be defined as a legion. But most warbands or chapters that had a parent legion and still identify themselves with that legion still fight like that legion.

And there are Renegades who fight just like them.

 

So what, shaft the Renegades to give focus to the broken Legions? Keep focusing on the same nine names because "it expands our scope of the 40K universe to keep staring at the same stars?"

 

Everyone is saying I'm missing the point, but as usually, the Chaos community doesn't bother looking at mine. The Night Reapers are a Renegade Chapter that uses Fear tactics. The Death Shadows are another Renegade Chapter that use terror tactics. In other words, both Chapters use terror tactics, just like the Night Lords!

 

"What are you saying Kol? That we should give consideration to the Chaos Marines outside the Legions who can be grouped into the same "Traits Category" because they use the same tactics? And that instead of calling them Legion tactics, we instead call them Terror tactics, siege tactics, Slaaneshi warbands and Khorne warbands?"

 

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/light-bulb-idea-821688.jpg