[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Gyem]

Where do you find your second Heavy Support slot in your allied detachment?

 

Edit: Also no immobile stuff with the Liberation Force RoW

 

Edit bis : Technically the Row forbid units with the Immobile special rule, and Ordnance Battery have the Immobile Artillery special rule... but this is beyond dumb RaW interpretation.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Gyem

[Nusquam]

The 2x2 batteries was an error on my part. I let battlescribe convince me there were no errors. Fixed the post.

 

The immobile artillery/immobile mismatch didn't even cross my mind. Even without, there are only a few miltia units that are made up of humans to benefit from the RoW. Levy squads are the go-to to maximize fearless. The only other infantry in other slots are enginseers, brutes, and medicaes.

 

Once my headache subsides I'll reexamine it, but outlook not good.

[Nusquam]

Updated crunch

 

Levy route:

• Force Commander, Cyber PoW
• 2x50 Levy squads with Laslocks
• x2 Centurions, Boarding Shield, Camo, Power Axe, 2+

485 Points of 100(+1 Force Commander) Disposable, BS3 Humans with 6+/6++, 18" S4 assault 1 shooting, and CC Cent granting them fearless, defensive grenades, and stealth. I believe the newest FAQ draft mentions you can choose to deploy normally so the Cent doesn't need termi armor. If it ends up you can't then drop the other upgrades and give him Tartaros(which comes with a power weapon). This horde averages to 4.7 ppm.

 

If legions get access to the new marine powers, make the Cents libbies and roll on Fulmination to fish for powers 5 and 6. Even if they don't you can fish for invis if you're so inclined. Divination for a unit-wide 3++ wouldn't be terrible either. If you don't get laslocks then misfortune for spamming rending in rapidfire range would work.

 

Grenadier Route:

• FC, SotDA Prov
• 2x20 Genadiers, 2 specials
• 1 Medicae unit
• Same 2 Cents as above

615 Points of 44(+1) BS4 Humans with 3+, FnP, and the other trimmings. Already having 60 fewer bodies is the biggest difference. However they do have  3+ and FnP. Though fewer, they are substantially tougher against small arms.

 

They have almost the same survivability against basilisks, medusas, phosphex rapiers, typhons, etc. But then even marines fold to those as well.

 

The Genadiers plus FC is 375. 40 Tactical Marines with 2 apoths is 590(640 total with a naked Centurion) but have infiltrate, T4, bolters, and Fury. There are large differences. Now you can not use the Centurions and save 180 points and try to keep your army tight to grant them fearless. That's going to require a lot of effort, comparatively, just to keep the Grenadiers within 6" so I don't recommend it. So what you end up with is two subpar tactical squads(grenadiers) with added fearless some special weapons. In this expansion most lists are geared to kill marines, so humans with a 3+ won't fair better.

 

So Levy vs Grenadiers I give it to the Levy. 100 humans that charge up the field into the grinder offer much more than marines-lite grenadiers; both tactically and in points saved. Your opponent has to deal with 100 fearless humans sprinting at their front line; they can't ignore them lest they tie up everything.

 

The obvious weakness is artillery. Fearless or not they will fold to it exactly like marines would, but each death hurts less and you have more bodies. They'll fall quicker to small arms fire, but you're Raven Guard; you are unmatched in wholesale slaughter of line troops. No other legion can match us in sheer casualties we can cause save for Ironfire lists. With careful use of Mor Deythan, Furies, and Nex to eliminate enemy tacticals and other line troops the only thing left to face the fearless horde are thing like tanks and armored artillery. Even should your opponent see that and target your Mor Deythan/Furies they will leave the horde alone. Either way they are in trouble. You could even outflank the hordes. That's scary, that's synergy.

 

But my previous 'take the same amount of effort and apply to x, y, z' still stands.

 

Now, speaking of Ironfire. It is the bane of the above, but to be fair it is also the bane of anything. Assuming the same level of optimization an Ironfire list will roll the above and just about anything else that relies on a mix of troops and vehicles that's caught unawares so I won't delve into that as it's an additional conversation. I don't think it's unbeatable, but it is powerful. I can't even be mad at it because of how fluffy it is.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Nusquam

[Gyem]

What about playing traitor RG (We only loose Maun/Nex), a more conventional RoW (Decap?) and ally some sweet Tainted Flesh / Cult Horde Levy and an Ordnance Battery? 

[Nusquam]

Sounds pretty delicious if you ask me.

I can see it now:

An unnamed predation fleet, never bothered to be given a name nor ask for one, goes by just a number. In the outer darkness they reaved and culled. A tithe payed in blood. Not only by those they killed, but by those they conquered. The young and strong were implanted to make more legionnaires while the rest were forced into the front lines where they too were touched by a darkness that could never hope to see the light again.

 

Though taking ordnance batteries would be a waste because the cult option forces snap shots. But the tainted flesh would make for a cool 'Touched by Darkness' fluff-as. Fear and rending? Pretty good. Plus the mutant spawns could be scary beasts from the outer darkness.

 

Edit: An army of dark compliance with Tainted Flesh and spawn would make for a very thematic list too.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Nusquam

[defl0]

 

Levy route:

• Force Commander, Cyber PoW
• 2x50 Levy squads with Laslocks
• x2 Centurions, Boarding Shield, Camo, Power Axe, 2+

 

@ Nusquam:

 

Not sure what you are getting at here.The Cents can't join the Levy's because Raven Guard and Milita are only Fellow Warriors not sworn Brothers. It's probably the most annoying thing about the ROW... 

 

I wrote an atricle at Petehappen.com  a little while back cover my thoughts. 

 

http://www.petehappens.com/2016/02/raven-guard-30k-row-liberation-force.html

 

Anyway, we are currently running a 30K campaign in NYC and I lent a new player my militia force, so we've been doing  a lot of testing of units. Militia are REALLY good, but in the ROW they are really only OK. 

 

With Raven Guard, I have had some luck with 2 X 50 Levy squad and either medusa breachers or leman russes. 3 Vanquishers with hull lascannons really deals with a lot of problems. 

 

The traitor Raven Guard with Traitor Militia are a great idea. Warp cult and tainted flesh are just over the top good on Lexy squads and Orgyns. Plus it's an interesting take on daemon blood tainted raptors. 

[GreyCrow]

Hey guys ! So, this might sound like a stupid question, but has anyone tried footslogging Corax to play with a list of Infiltrating tacticals as the core battle line ? I'm not sure having him on his jetpacks on his own would be the most interesting strategy, compared to having him with a large enough contingent of jump infantry.

[Slips]

I mean, why would you? Unless the unit shooting at him has a Primarch, Psyker or Daemon, if he's not the closest target, they're snap shooting.

 

And that bonus goes away if you slap him onto a squad.

 

Additionally, I dont think running him sans jump pack w/ Heavy Bolter is worth the reduced stats and stuff.

[Nusquam]

Wait wait wait militia is only fellow warriors?

I don't even know what to do with it anymore. You can't lead them from the front or integrate them in any way. That's just anti-intuitive to fluff.  It needs an ally to work and then they're kept at arms-length. It requires a lot of effort to make and use for minimal gains that could be replicated better and easier elsewhere. I'm all for underdog approaches to games but yikes. It's hamstringing itself.

[GreyCrow]

I mean, why would you? Unless the unit shooting at him has a Primarch, Psyker or Daemon, if he's not the closest target, they're snap shooting.

 

And that bonus goes away if you slap him onto a squad.

 

Additionally, I dont think running him sans jump pack w/ Heavy Bolter is worth the reduced stats and stuff.

 

Sorry, I probably wasn't really clear when I meant on his own (wrote that post very late with a few pints after celebrating the Euro match win !).

 

What I meant by "not sure having him on his jetpack on his own is the most interesting strategy" really meant : I'm not sure him being the only jump infantry unit in a list (so a core troops of Tactical squads for example) is the most interesting.

Of course you are 100% right that Corax highly benefits from The Shadowed Lord, due to his bad Invulnerable save ;)

 

Fair enough for the reduced T, A and Sv. My point was that he would fit the pace of a Tactical list better without his Jump Pack over being forced to slowplay it and not use his full 12" so he doesn't stay the closest.

[defl0]

Wait wait wait militia is only fellow warriors?

 

I don't even know what to do with it anymore. You can't lead them from the front or integrate them in any way. That's just anti-intuitive to fluff.  It needs an ally to work and then they're kept at arms-length. It requires a lot of effort to make and use for minimal gains that could be replicated better and easier elsewhere. I'm all for underdog approaches to games but yikes. It's hamstringing itself.

 

Yeah... It's an amazingly restrictive ROW. I have a hard time believing that's how they meant it too work... but it is what it is. You are probably better off running Militia as your primary force and Raven Guard as your allies. 

 

But if you run it as a Warlord elimination list it can be very strong. A lot of missions don't really have that many available VPs, so to be able to pick up 6VPs for killing the warlord (if you include Nex) is really a fun side list to throw out occasionally to surprize your opponent. 

 

It's totally not what the ROW was supposed to do though :p

[Kulon Tar]

Imagine you play in a relatively young horus heresy meta where the biggest/toughest vehicle is a leviathan yet. Usually facing a couple contemptors and sicaran tanks with lots of troops in rhinos and drop pods.

 

How would you approach anti tank duties in this environment?

Looking for a way to solve current Anti-Tank issues without buying stuff thats going to be useless in bigger/later games.

 

Grav rapiers seem a bit wasted without AV14/15 but might be the best pick in the long run.

Shatter shell rapiers seem really potent against up to AV13 but appear insufficient once the bigger vehicles show up.

 

Do you think plasma/melta support squads in drop pods going for side/rear shots is enough to deal with them?

 

Anything i'm missing? A really great, fast and tough close combat solution maybe?

[defl0]

We're currently play an escalation league. We are at 1000 points, it's a lot of new players, so the meta is similar to what you describe. 

 

I'm running:

 

Maun, camo

Chappy, MBs, camo, boarding shield

17 tacs, 2 CCWs, Sgt. w. power axe

6 Mor Deythan with combi flamers in a rhino

3 grav cannons

 

Honestly, contemptors are quite difficult to deal with. The gravs have been pretty good. But there are other options. Melta guns are great when deal with units without ceremite. So tac supports with meltas in a pod are solid. Or vets with tank hunter and 2 meltas in a rhino with combi melta are solid. 

 

Even melta bomb units are solid. (think 10 vets or 5 recon) 

 

Sicarian as are always solid. 

 

Also don't discount how strong 20 krack grenades in a tac squad are especially when they are re rolling to hit with a Chaplain. 

 

FInally, I like to keep my body count up and I've been liking 20 breachers, a vigilator and 4 grav guns a lot recently.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Leviathan is one of the hardest non-super heavy vehicles to kill, especially if podded.

 

In general though, laser vindicators eat through almost any type of AV, as do grav rapiers. Its hard to go wrong with either, especially since you get slot saturation (3 per foc slot) with both. Rapiers tend to edge over in RG lists since they don't take up a Heavy slot in Decapitation Strike and get to Infiltrate into the best position.

[defl0]

Agreed. Being able to place your anti tank AFTER your opponent places their tanks is what Raven Guard have going for them in the tank hunting department. 

 

So if you want to do it the Raven Guard way you are usually running something infantry ish so you can infiltrate them in. 

 

Pods is the other Raven Guardy Option. 

[Kulon Tar]

How comes that you field Maun at such a small game? Most of his benefits don't matter without pods or deep strike.

Do you take him for the slight improvement in going first or because you are playing an escalation league?

 

Back on the matter of anti tank:

What do you think of raven guard cc+grav contemptors/leviathan in pods?

Of course this would give the enemy a worthwhile target for his heavy weapons besides the usual rhinos and rapiers but such a distraction might be even advantageous at times.

Another problem is the vehicle count going up and especially in higher point games the elite slots are really rare.

[SkimaskMohawk]

How comes that you field Maun at such a small game? Most of his benefits don't matter without pods or deep strike.

Do you take him for the slight improvement in going first or because you are playing an escalation league?

 

Back on the matter of anti tank:

What do you think of raven guard cc+grav contemptors/leviathan in pods?

Of course this would give the enemy a worthwhile target for his heavy weapons besides the usual rhinos and rapiers but such a distraction might be even advantageous at times.

Another problem is the vehicle count going up and especially in higher point games the elite slots are really rare.

 

Unless youre taking a Rite that really changes things up (like armoured breakthrough or the jetbike one) then you should be taking Decapitation Strike as its just so good, the only downside being the Heavy restriction. If you have Decap, then Maun automatically becomes the best choice since he's very cheap, has Master of the Legion, and has insane synergy with Decap.

 

In delf0's case though, I'm not sure why he has maun as he has nothing with deepstrike, no rite that he says hes taken, and the chaplain isn't a support officer

[defl0]

Decapitated strike + Maun is 87% chance of going first.

 

My list is based on first turn alpha strike.

 

Grav takes away your walkers and transports. Mor Deythan takes out blobs or deaths tars.

 

Chappy with tacs can tank hunt with krack or stand toe to toe with basically anything, and with fearless they can tarpit and not be pushed off objectives.

 

So Maun basically gives you a huge chance of going first and crippling your opponent.

 

Maun is also sold for reserves if you outflank the mor deythan

[Charlo]

Hadn't read the RG rules in a little while - holy  !

 

If you manage to get a force together with Decap, Maun, Corax and lots of Pods that is pure insanity.... D:

[Gyem]

Maun is also sold for reserves if you outflank the mor deythan

 

I don't get this part, could you elaborate? Unless your MDs are in a DarkWing?

[Slips]

All LA:RG Infantry have Infiltrate as part of the rule.

 

If you put a unit with Infiltrate and/or Scout in reserves, they gain Outflank.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think hes asking how maun matters for non deepstriking reserves as he doesn't confer acute senses and his re-roll for reserves is only for pods 

[Gyem]

I think hes asking how maun matters for non deepstriking reserves as he doesn't confer acute senses and his re-roll for reserves is only for pods and flyers

Exactly my question :)

[defl0]

Yup. My bad. He only get's re roll reserves on deepstrike. 

[defl0]

Wrote a quick bikes tactica. Did I miss anything? 

 

http://www.petehappens.com/2016/06/raven-guard-30k-bikes-jet-bikes.html