[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Flint13]

Looks like a pretty well thought out article. Great work, man.

 

One small point though, meltabombs don't get the strength bonus from furious charge.

[defl0]

Why wouldn't they? I might have missed it but I can't find anything saying you wouldn't get the +1.

[Flint13]

They're a weapon with a set strength. Not like a power axe, for example that's Str "as user +1."

 

Plus I mean... What are you doing, furiously clamping it extra hard?

[defl0]

Lol. Fair. Honestly, I never really thought about something like a lascutter not getting a +1 because it has a set str.

[Flint13]

Yeah, lascutters are this whole other deal.

 

You get to punch a guy in the face with a melee lascannon, but only once and not very well.

[Nusquam]

Though any door in ZM should fear you

[defl0]

Anyone used Shadrack Meduson in a Raven Guard Force?

 

From my understanding of his rules you can take him as a Raven Guard Warlord. It doesn't seem to be contingent on the shattered legion rules. He also counts as Legion Astartes (Raven Guard).

 

He's kinda interesting in what he does to a Raven Guard force as you can take IH or Sally ROWs. 

 

- Company of bitter Iron ROW let's us take medusan immortals

- Head of the gorgan ROW gives us resilient vehicles that can out flank, mechanicum units and the option to swap flamers for grav guns for 15 pts... (nasty)

- Covent of fire ROW master crafts all melta weapons, gives us pyroclasts as non compulsory troops and move through cover

- Avenging Fire ROW - lets us force another turn and gives librarians the salamander psychic power 

 

Is this legit or am I missing something major... It's kinda interesting as I've seen shattered legion rules largely banned in most tournaments.

[defl0]

BTW - How do you guy equipt your Praevians and why?

[Nusquam]

I think Medusan is supposed to be just shattered legions if you're mixing and matching. He has the LA(Iron Hands) rule, so he would make the detachment IH(or rather require it to be IH to take him), but you could then take Decapitation Strike and he alone would count as RG only for it's effects and limitations. His rule doesn't allow mixing and matching of different units with different LA, it's just if you do via shattered and he's the WL he counts as having one of those three LA rules and can take from those legions RoWs.

I'm not surprised that events are banning it. It's designed strictly for narrative reasons. Pretty obvious why.

 

As for Praevians I always give them a combi melta, axe, 2+, camo, an boarding shield. Stealth and defensive grenade buffs are the top picks. The melta is just for extra oomf when assaulting and wanting to trigger PE, or blasting doors/objectives in ZM. The bolter part helps extend the PE to 24".

[Fangbanger]

Greetings skulkers in the shadows....

 

I am toying with raven guard as a second Legion and threw this together as a starting point...

 

+++ Raven (2475pts) +++

 

+ HQ +

 

Strike Captain Alvarex Maun [Cameleoline]

··Master of the Legion [Decapitation Strike]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Tactical Squad [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]

··Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Raven's Talons]

 

Legion Tactical Squad [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]

··Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Raven's Talons]

 

Legion Tactical Support Squad [Legion Drop Pod, 4x Legion Space Marines, Melta Guns]

··Legion Sergeant [Melta Bombs]

 

+ Elites +

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

 

Mor Deythan Strike Squad [5x Combi-weapon, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, Melta Bombs, 4x Mor Deythan]

 

Mor Deythan Strike Squad [5x Combi-weapon, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, Melta Bombs, 4x Mor Deythan]

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Dark Fury Assault Squad [7x Dark Fury]

··Chooser of the Slain [Melta Bombs]

 

Legion Outrider Squad [5x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Melta Bombs]

··Outrider Sergeant [Power Fist]

 

Xiphon Interceptor

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Vindicator Siege Tank Squadron

··Legion Vindicator Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Laser Destroyer Array]

··Legion Vindicator Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Laser Destroyer Array]

 

Happy to change anything really as not got any models yet. Ideally want a strike force kinda theme, happy to add in the storm Eagle variant if they are decent and then possibly corax to got to 3000

 

All things considered but love the special unit models so request at least a unit of each

 

Cheers!

[Terminus]

If you want "discussions on units and tactics", it would help if you fleshed your idea out a little more, what roles do you see for the models you selected, any choices you agonized over, who your regular opponents are and how you are planning on approaching them.  The list you posted looks fine.

[Fangbanger]

That's a fair enough point Terminus, I could have gone into more detail with the whys.....so lets try again

 

The list has been jiggled around now somewhat anyway as I wasn't really a fan of the grav rappiers. Instead, the points are used to give Maun a storm eagle to start in with just one unit of 10 Mor Deythan. I figure if taking him, it's best to use him to his fullest and get a flyer in turn 2 when I want it.

 

Is this a good use for the Mor Deythan? I assume they are better off being used once enemy transports etc... Have been destroyed first and putting them in the flyer keeps them out of trouble.

 

I've dropped the melta squad in favour of a contemptor with c.fist, combat fist and gravs in a pod as some extra AT than can drop down turn one as although a lightning does a better job, I hate the model and the fact everyone seems to be running one now hence going for the xiphon. But have the Dread, xiphon, laser vindis, outriders with MB and even the las/melta from the eagle I figure I have that coverd.

 

Do you feel 2 tac squads are best in rhinos or pods usually? And how are people getting dark fury to work? They seem brutal but massively fragile.... Models are some of the best forgeworld have done though so a must have in my opinion

[Terminus]

Tactical squads in pods are only good for facilitating other drop pod elements in my opinion.  Raven Guard (and Alphas) in particular are better off with a Rhino due to innate Infiltrate.  If you're not bringing a bunch of pods loaded with alpha elements (dreadnoughts, support squads, etc), they should probably be in Rhinos.  Your list doesn't really take advantage of Decapitation Strike, you may be better served with Pride of the Legion so you can take veterans instead of tactical marines. The dreadnought can always take a pod as your 1st turn reserve element.  If you want to stick with decapitation strike, I would consider putting the Mor Deythan in the pods and rhino-infiltrating the tacticals, but you're right in that they are better off waiting out the first turn or two while the armour is exchanging firepower.

 

Speaking of the best point-for-point power armour unit in the game, my opinion on Mor Deythan runs contrary to popular wisdom of combi-flamer spam. Combi-flamers are amazing, don't get me wrong, but I feel like people overlook the 1 in 3 plasma guns they can take.  My reasoning:

1. I don't play Ravens myself but I face them quite a bit, and even with minimum units sometimes there is a guy or two who can't get a decent number of my guys under their templates (or none due to clipping friendlies). For example, for a unit of six it's infinitely easier to land 4 templates and 4 plasma shots from the back row, rather than try to land 6 templates.

2. You're highly dependent on those rending rolls, and while volume of hits should contribute quite a few, I've had instances where my Artificer Sgt. passed off the few rending wounds to squad mates and tanked the rest of the flamer hits.  Being able to keep a couple of plasma guns in the back row to put out 4 twin-linked plasma shots on the money turn to strip the Sgt away seems like a great boon no one ever takes advantage of.  It also strengthens their game vs. terminators. It's the same reason why people take plasma guns on sniper veterans. 

3. A unit of combi-weapons is underwhelming in subsequent turns, whereas having 2 plasma guns lets them be a considerable threat to everything as long as they are alive. Combined with stealth, shroud bombs, and BP+CCW, they are already a very annoying target to dislodge, so why not give them some teeth?

4. If you are taking Rhinos, they can drive around popping the plasma guns out of the firing ports.

5. This is a bit of a stretch, but if there are no targets that require flamers (or they are weak cultists that die in droves regardless), you could use their ability to throw some twin-linked rending plasma guns out there against AV-heavy opponents.

6. It's only 16 points more for 2 plasma guns over 2 combi-flamers for all of the above benefits. 

 

I wouldn't bother with armoured ceramite on the Vindicators. If they are being shot at by meltas, it's either a podded support weapon squad or a Leviathan, who will be smoking it regardless of that extra D6. 

 

Dark Furies are the tits, but they need a delivery system and attached force multiplier character to really shine. Maybe for when you get the stormeagle in there, or Corax to run and tank for them.

 

Grav Rapiers are sweet, but in this list they are basically by themselves once your FA elements start moving. You may want to shore up your anti-tank at this point, though, since you dropped the meltas, too.

 

Lastly, the Outriders are kind of an odd bird in this list.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Terminus

[Fangbanger]

Wow terminus, thanks for the feedback!

 

Yeah I think I'm a little confused about what I want my army to do and kind of want things that I'm finding don't really synagise too well.

 

I love the idea of drop ships landing in and especially after reading petes stuff about air cav today, think I want my ravens to be focused on that. I hard hitting ground force that opens up transports/clears out anti air etc.. And then a drop ship or 2 and flyer support to arrive

 

I think Maun in a flyer with the Deythan is a keeper, I like the way it just comes in and they can act as an assassination squad with plasma

 

2 tac squads are standard, so 2 bare in rhinos will have to do. I don't want to pay for vets and try I got to run a termie free army

 

Fast attack, like I say, dark furys would be amazing but I think it's going to be hard fitting them in. Having them on the board turn 1 means a potential turn 2 charge, but not having much starting on the board means they will be a high priority target. They could however deepstrike, but then they are left waiting a turn. I'll have to come back to these guys

 

Flyers, really want to run the xiphon as it looks :cussing cool. I'm trying to avoid the Lightning as it looks pants and is everywhere now people have cottoned onto the ability to wreck Spartans. I'm just feeling like the xiphon won't hit high av ground targets hard enough and so toying with taking one of each but not keen on that....

 

Heavy. I think because of Pete a fire raptor is a must and I like the model. Also with it rolling with decap, I can fit a laser destroyer in there for tank busting. I think I'd rather a medus for some str10 but it doesn't fit the theme at all for me. Spartans will be a struggle, but when are they not..? Maybe a drop pod dread with grav and chain fist/fist could be a good shout? Although starting with only 2 rhinos and a laser destroyer on the board a dropped dread is going to be taking a lot of shots

 

Really don't want to run a Levi as again, it seems that's what everyone does

 

2,500 points fills up fast with this kind of thinking and doesn't leave many boots on the ground:

 

Maun and dark wing with 8 Mor Deythan (plas)

2 X rhino tacs

Xiphon

Fire raptor

Vindi destroyer

Damocles

 

Leaves about 750pts left to spend

 

Another unit of Mor Deythan in a drop ship would look really cool, but then only leave me 200 for frontline ground support... Maybe another vindi?

Edited July 12, 2016 by Fangbanger

[Charlo]

Personally, I dont think Deythan in a bird is the way to go - you want them coming in and letting off firepower asap.

 

Why not put them into a pod with Maun, but put some Dark Furies into a Stormeagle to give them safe passage for a turn (or even put Maun with them to ensure arrival).

 

Even if they don't get a charge off until turn 3, you'll be mopping up by then and a small DF unit will mop up whatever you points them at.

[Fangbanger]

My feeling about the Deythan is that if I'm playing armoured transports I don't really want them around until they are gone so they can take on the terminators/marines inside. Terminators will never be footsloging and this is the kind of target I feel they are there to take on

 

I like the idea of furys in a eagle too though, definatly food for thought

[Flint13]

Hey bros.

 

For helpful future reference, feel free to post army lists in the tactica threads. 

 

Carry on, and have fun.

 

~Flint

[defl0]

Dark Furies in a Storm Eagle are illegal. Jumpers can't be transported unfortunately. 

 

The whole concept of infiltrate vs infiltrate in rhinos vs outflank vs drop pod is really important in list design for RG. 

 

decapitating strike + Maun or the Recon ROW gives you a very good chance to get first turn alpha strike. In which case, infiltrating in rhinos with something like Mor Deythan is very powerful because they have scout, so their rending flamers, melta or double tapping plasma can be employed reliably. 

 

If you don't go down the the path of "go first alpha strike", you can consider drop pod alpha strike, which I think is actually better to go second. Unit's like Maun are still very good to manage "scatter risk", but more importantly, this type of list elevates "seize the initiative risk". 

 

You can also use drop pods as more of a reserve list, which tends to incorporate units of similar time signatures like deep strikers, flyers, out flankers and general reservists. In this type of list, you actually wait for your opponent to start to move toward objectives and spread their army out. This let's you isolate units, destroy transports, minimize certain threats and react to your opponent's reserve elements. Interestingly, Maun and the Recon ROW or decap strike are good for this type of list as well. 

 

The point is that timing is really important in a RG list, your list brings good elements, but building it towards one of these strategies would make it stronger and clear of purpose. 

 

My blog has a bunch of these thoughts written down if you are interested. 

 

http://www.petehappens.com/2015/03/raven-guard-30k-list-building-philosophy.html

[Fangbanger]

I did wownder that about the furry's...

 

yeah i've been making my way through the blog mate, some great stuff there for sure and got my mind going crazy for the possibility's! 

 

I really want to rock some air cav, but it needs some good supporting ground fire too so my idea is as follows:

 

Damocles

2 x rhino tac squads

1 x 5 man melta squad with rhino

vindi lazer dstroyer

 

then the air cav...

 

maun with 8 plas deythan in darkwing

another 8 plas deythan in darkwing

lightning with kraken (i know, didnt want to but just cant not for what it does)

fire raptor

 

i just love the idea of 2 darkwings hurtling accross the board "ride of the valkyries" style

 

admittedly only having 5 rhino chassis to weather a turn one storm is going to be tough, but with infiltrate I can pick off targets or split their forces before the birds arrive

 

its 2494 pts too and i think would look super cool on the table. probably not the most competative list going but no one i play with really runs air or AA

 

is this something you could see working?

Edited July 12, 2016 by Fangbanger

[defl0]

Totally could work. 

 

I find that terminators work very well with storm eagle and the like. The combi weapons are a very cheap upgrade, so hit almost as hard in the shooting phase as something like mordeythan and if you give them plasma and you can then charge with them. They are also really quite good at tank hunting and you can even do some cool tricks like run them with a forgelord with rad grenades and now you are obliting 2W t4 models on the charge with power axes, or just go powerfists. Even claws are really good. 

 

Finally, I find my airforce lists are super light on foot troops, so I like the resilience and ability to push units off objectives in hth that I get out my termies. 

 

I general, I start with 3 fire raptors and 1 or 2 lightnings and go from there. I also have run a bunch of imbetweeny lists. I really like grav cannons, termies in cestus and mor deythan in rhinos. The units do a good job of opening transports or killing anti air units and then bringing in the termies to clean up what's left. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

So you guys realize that if you buy one of Maun's DTs, the only unit that can go with him in it are other ICs and not any units right?

[defl0]

Combined Reserve Units:

 

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independant Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify in any units in Reserve are embarked upon an Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined units, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character / Transport vehicle.

 

Independent Characters :

 

An Independant Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which the unit it has joined.  Blah blah blah... While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules

purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

 

 

Dedicated Transport: 

 

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can

only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that

have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly

 

 

 

So, let's not get bogged down on this... But here is all the text you need to understand where he is coming from... 

 

Some people make the case that it's Maun's transport and thus only the unit it was selected with can deploy in it, plus other ICs.

 

However, the counterargument is that Maun does in fact become part of the unit and thus the unit did select it.

 

It gets ugly quick. There is a lot of ammo for both sides. 

 

Interpret it however you like, the RAW is muddy. For RAI, it's obvious they intended ICs and a squad to be able to be deployed together. But feel free to ask FW, I've seen a response floating around that supports a unit can join him. But knowing FW there is probably one floating around that says the opposite :p

 

Anyway, be prepared for the conversation as it's a pretty unique scenario. Or ask your opponent or tourney organizer ahead of time. 

 

All that said, I personally think you want to start Maun on the Table pretty much all the time because his force multipliers only count if he is on the table, but I can understand why Mor Deythan in a Pod are alluring. 

[Nusquam]

So you guys realize that if you buy one of Maun's DTs, the only unit that can go with him in it are other ICs and not any units right?

 

Just email FW. I did on the matter, they agree he can take another unit with him. This expansion isn't supposed to be a tightly run strictly RAW under every circumstance game. It's the narrative expansion of a narrative game. Minor things like this shouldn't be a problem when you bring it up with your group.

[Fangbanger]

Having Maun in a flyer and the Damocles on the table gives a bigger bubble of no scatter when whatever he is flying in on turn 2 deep strikes, not to mention 2+ or 4+ on reserve rolls depending on preference for everything else you are bringing in from reserves.

 

Sure the Damos gotta stay alive a turn and you can argue with him on the board with re-rolls the Damocles is nearly redundant and you can save 100 points, but knowing something is definatley coming in turn 2 that cannot be manipulated by reserve roll shenanigans is pretty big imo

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Combined Reserve Units:

 

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independant Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify in any units in Reserve are embarked upon an Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined units, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character / Transport vehicle.

 

Independent Characters :

 

An Independant Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which the unit it has joined.  Blah blah blah... While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules

purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

 

 

Dedicated Transport: 

 

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can

only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that

have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly

 

 

 

So, let's not get bogged down on this... But here is all the text you need to understand where he is coming from... 

 

Some people make the case that it's Maun's transport and thus only the unit it was selected with can deploy in it, plus other ICs.

 

However, the counterargument is that Maun does in fact become part of the unit and thus the unit did select it.

 

It gets ugly quick. There is a lot of ammo for both sides. 

 

Interpret it however you like, the RAW is muddy. For RAI, it's obvious they intended ICs and a squad to be able to be deployed together. But feel free to ask FW, I've seen a response floating around that supports a unit can join him. But knowing FW there is probably one floating around that says the opposite

 

Anyway, be prepared for the conversation as it's a pretty unique scenario. Or ask your opponent or tourney organizer ahead of time. 

 

All that said, I personally think you want to start Maun on the Table pretty much all the time because his force multipliers only count if he is on the table, but I can understand why Mor Deythan in a Pod are alluring. 

 

 

Yea I can definitely see where it can go downhill, IMO it comes down to sequencing in that buying the DT happens during list creation which happens way before deployment.

 

 

 

So you guys realize that if you buy one of Maun's DTs, the only unit that can go with him in it are other ICs and not any units right?

 

Just email FW. I did on the matter, they agree he can take another unit with him. This expansion isn't supposed to be a tightly run strictly RAW under every circumstance game. It's the narrative expansion of a narrative game. Minor things like this shouldn't be a problem when you bring it up with your group.

 

 

Narrative is such a trope of not wanting to follow the rules at this point; emailing FW to complain about it and get blind assent is almost as big. 

 

Having Maun in a flyer and the Damocles on the table gives a bigger bubble of no scatter when whatever he is flying in on turn 2 deep strikes, not to mention 2+ or 4+ on reserve rolls depending on preference for everything else you are bringing in from reserves.

 

Sure the Damos gotta stay alive a turn and you can argue with him on the board with re-rolls the Damocles is nearly redundant and you can save 100 points, but knowing something is definatley coming in turn 2 that cannot be manipulated by reserve roll shenanigans is pretty big imo

 

Auras don't work from inside transports any more