Flint13 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Assault marines are not good at hth in any legion. Even with the point reduction they are still just mediocre. So why take a ROW that forces you to use them in that capacity? Hah! Speak for yourself, loyalist. World Eater assault marines are brutal. With hit and run, we just get those sweet charge bonuses every turn we want them, on top of getting shot less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) Why? Jump Infantry is Infantry, and unlike terminators they are not excluded from that category of bonuses. RAW they get it all. We play by the FAQ, so one bomb per unit, makes that option a lot less useful. I'm wondering if that FAQ draft will ever go 'official'. Currently I'm not sure how to use grenades, my friends think a bomb per model makes more sense, but will play one per unit if that's the way it will be. But right now the community seems 50/50 on it and GW hasn't gone official on it yet. I'm quite sure that they did go official on the Jump Infantry not being infantry issue. Jump Infantry is its own unit type not a specific type of infantry. It's not (jump) infantry and (walking) infantry etc, but Jump Infantry and Infantry. I'll try to find a quote on that for you. Edit: Hmm, maybe you're right Edited September 13, 2016 by MorgothNL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Why does everyone think that? BIG BOLDED PARAGRAPH at the very beginning of the rules for Jump Infantry: Jump units are equipped with jump packs, wings, teleport devices or other means of moving quickly over short distances. Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry. Am I going to have to repost the above in every Legion's sub forum? :P Fleet and Infiltrate is very nice on assault marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badguyshaveallthefun Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Let me ask you your opinion on terminators then...Do they also have furious charge infiltrate and fleet?Are the Raven Guard rules (by your interpretation) supposed to essentially say that all infantry get infiltrate and fleet; in addition terminators and assault marines get furious charge?If that is indeed the case I'm going to seriously reevaluate the priorities of my planned army expansion. I suppose it would make up for the fact that we don't have a lot of vehicles...ALL our infantry kick serious butt to compensate. Man I'm even more excited to get my army on the table now. (waiting until they're all painted) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defl0 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Yes. It's how the rule reads. And by RAW you are 100% correct. But it was an oversight by the designers and they have clarified it several times. Yes, they have retardedly left it out of the FAQs and reprints. 30K is a game of RAI unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defl0 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Why? Jump Infantry is Infantry, and unlike terminators they are not excluded from that category of bonuses. RAW they get it all. We play by the FAQ, so one bomb per unit, makes that option a lot less useful. lol. Well if you play with the 40K FAQs then both the ROWs are junk :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) ^ Again, neither Rite is particularly strong for Raven Guard despite all the bonuses you get on your assault marines. Angel's Wrath is just bad, other Legions like Night Lords can utilize Drop Assault Vanguard very effectively. I like the grenade change, it was silly that my killer robots were scared of miltia swarms with krak grenades. There is enough graviton and high strength shots around that walkers of all sorts don't need another source of certain death coming their way. I like it, but to each his own. Let me ask you your opinion on terminators then...Do they also have furious charge infiltrate and fleet?Are the Raven Guard rules (by your interpretation) supposed to essentially say that all infantry get infiltrate and fleet; in addition terminators and assault marines get furious charge?If that is indeed the case I'm going to seriously reevaluate the priorities of my planned army expansion. I suppose it would make up for the fact that we don't have a lot of vehicles...ALL our infantry kick serious butt to compensate. Man I'm even more excited to get my army on the table now. (waiting until they're all painted) I take exception at the words you are using. "Opinion"? "Interpretation"? How about just read the rules (again bolded for emphasis by the original writers)? Infantry (except models with Terminator armour of any type): Infiltrate and Fleet. Jump Infantry, Bikes and Jetbikes, Infantry in Terminator Armour: Furious Assault [sic] So there is no interpretation, there is no opinion, there is only the rules as they are clearly written in English (okay, maybe not so clearly, they got the Furious Charge rule name wrong, lol, good old FW). Like with 80% of the GW FAQ, 80% of the FW misunderstandings stem from people not reading the rules, but just going by what they pick up from other players during games or what they remember from 2-3-4-5 editions prior. I am definitely equally guilty of it on occasion, so I've been trying to always re-read the relevant passages before offering specific comment or opinion. Bikes/Jetbikes, Terminators = Furious Charge Non-Terminator Infantry on foot = Infiltrate and Fleet Non-Terminator Infantry with jump packs = Infiltrate, Fleet, Furious Charge It's pretty solid. Edited September 13, 2016 by Terminus IronDrake28 and Gyem 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badguyshaveallthefun Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 @Terminus Sorry no offense meant, I was just curious, as I never interpreted it that way. (I do read the rules, I don't play the game a lot but I do read and reread the rulebook(s))I always thought that infantry got infiltrate and fleet terminators/bikes/jump infantry got furious charge. It never occurred to me that because terminators and jump infantry are ALSO infantry that they get infiltrate and fleet as well. As others have noted this is probably what the game designers MEANT, but if they truly cared they'd have fixed it by now. Oh well. Terminus 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I apologize if I came across as harsh, I've had to rehash the Jump Infantry is Infantry argument at least half a dozen times over the last few days against some very stern opposition, so it's all blending together and making me testy. :D Terminators are indeed infantry, but the rules specifically exclude them from getting those bonuses. If the rules specifically didn't do so, then yes, Terminators would get everything too. These rules have been reprinted 3 times, so FW's attitude about it is some blend of don't know/don't care/it is what it is. So yes, you Ravens get Assault Marines drowning in USRs. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badguyshaveallthefun Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Sad that it takes so many rules to get people considering using them. They are some of the coolest and most iconographic units from 30k/40k fluff. luckily my gaming group is laid back and we actually see units like this all the time. Although we do have one guy that loves to run Perturabo AND his stompy robot bodyguard of doom :( And Rapiers...And Iron Havocs...And Medusas...There's always that one guy right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) I actually like the new assault marines, they are probably the best of the standard three choices that can fill compulsory slots. I don't fault people for using Primarchs, and the stompy bodyguard is super slow. I don't know if that qualifies you as ":cuss". Man, I'm all over this forum today. Slow day at work. :D Edited September 13, 2016 by Terminus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badguyshaveallthefun Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Well, it is fluffy. It's just a lot to handle for a lot of us.I guess that would raise an interesting question...How do you guys deal with Perturabo and his Iron Circle? Most everyone around here just tries to avoid them as yes, they are slow. However my ideal list has few transports/ways of increasing my speed (drop pods and infiltrate being the key ways of being where I want from the start) so my infantry will be just as slow as they are. What do you do when that unit is slogging up the field?Terminators? Plasma support squads? Graviton cannons to slow them down even more while continuing to avoid them?What tools does everyone else use for dealing with a unit like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 No one takes perturabo and his iron circle since the unit is at least 1200 pts If you did have to take it then grav wouldn't slow them down that much because as MCs they have Move Through Cover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defl0 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Delay & Shoot them to death. Anything high strength AP2 or 3 works well at chipping away at them. 4+i is good but you are still getting wounds through. Plasma units are probably the best, but melta, anything with rending etc works. They are resilient, but not unkillable. Even sniper vets with combi flamer or mor deythan with flamers are doing a good chunk of damage. Other than that, you can do a lot with delay tactics, depending on the mission. For example, my lists usually run a lot of infiltrating rhinos. Moving a rhino up to them and turning it sideways basically wastes most of their movement for one turn. Or do things like sacrifice squads behind them or away from an objective so they walk in the wrong direction. badguyshaveallthefun 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badguyshaveallthefun Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I like the idea of sniper vets.I think I'm going to need to add more Rhinos to my lists. (my planned list has only one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Any big unit can be seriously hurt by tank shocking it multiple times. Remember that any model forced out of coherency is automatically killed. If you wrap the squad (surround three sides) and tank shock it you will kill models (only models being shocked can move: so no condensing the unit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Nah. First, it's models that can't be placed, not models forced out of coherency. Second, That's going to "work" exactly once before that person doesn't want to play you again. Frontline gaming tried this exact idea on a larger scale with their "rhino corral" several months before GW specifically stated that this was never meant to destroy models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyem Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 Bikes/Jetbikes, Terminators = Furious Charge Non-Terminator Infantry on foot = Infiltrate and Fleet Non-Terminator Infantry with jump packs = Infiltrate, Fleet, Furious Charge So we don't need a vigilator to trigger shrouded on Dark Furies? Time to get a second squad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 As long as you already have three squads of Scouts, then yes, by all means squeeze in another squad of Furies. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Its the scout and stealth that you want the vigilator for. Being able to get right next to an enemy unit for a turn 2 charge with stealth and shrouded is where its at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyem Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Infiltrate gets me 18" away already. Enough for a t2 charge with jump. Stealth isn't worth the 100pts of the vigilator especially when you can have it half the time with nightfighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Thats assuming a lot of optimal placement on behalf of your opponent or board. All of mine have been wry enough to bubble or at the very least force infiltration to be out in open ground after deployment or after the first jump. SO for me, being able to redeploy 12" like that is essential so I'm not out in the open at the end of my turn or the beginning of theirs if they go first. I like the flexibility of RG, but I'll take every redundancy and advantage I can get. The can dice betray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleRain Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 what do most people take for Anti Air in their Raven Guard lists? I'm running a recon list with drop podding leviathans but struggling to fit in Anti Air whilst maintaining a theme. leaning towards xiphons but then if there is no aircraft they are not much use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 (edited) Fire Raptors are pretty awesome and about as thematic as it gets. It can potentially erase 4 transports/fliers in one turn. Edited September 22, 2016 by Terminus Nusquam 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Yeah, I'd second Fire Raptors. They're very Ravenguard-y and they can effectively engage and do considerable reliable damage to potentially 4 different light/medium targets. As cool as Xiphons are, they are just too much of an aggressively ok plane to justify the same points as a fire raptor. Also, for almost exactly the same points, Fire Raptor = 4hp, AV12. Xiphon = 2hp, AV11 Nusquam 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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